"Embedded Age" Requires Fake Fossils

[Loudmouth]

Only if you believe its age resets to zero.

We observe that it does. It is a physical fact that the rocks start at zero.

Only if you assume you can't measure the date of the lava that created the rock, whose age reset to zero.

Radiometric dating is the physical time period between now and when the rock first solidified.

In short, only on paper.

In reality, in real rocks.

 

[AV1611VET]

We observe that it does.

You expect me to believe that?

Your post brings to mind scientists wading around in lava with Geiger counters.

Larry: Get the age of that blob of lava!
Curly: Got it! 80 million years!
Moe: It just solidified. Look! The needle isn't moving!
Larry: Give it a whack.
Curly: You goofball. It went to zero because its age reset!
Moe: We need to repeat this, else it isn't true science.
Larry: Okay, let's go over there. There's a fresh batch of lava.
Curly: You mean magma?
Larry: Lava, you numbskull! [sticks Geiger tube in his eye]

 

[Loudmouth]

You expect me to believe that?

"In the early afternoon of August 24, 79 CE, Mt Vesuvius erupted violently, sending hot ash flows speeding down its flanks. These flows buried and destroyed Pompeii and other nearby Roman cities. We know the exact day of this eruption because Pliny the Younger carefully recorded the event. In 1997 a team of scientists from the Berkeley Geochronology Center and the University of Naples decided to see if the 40Ar/39Ar method of radiometric dating could accurately measure the age of this very young (by geological standards) volcanic material. They separated sanidine crystals from a sample of one of the ash flows. Incremental heating experiments on 12 samples of sanidine yielded 46 data points that resulted in an isochron age of 1925 years. The actual age of the flow in 1997 was 1918 years. Is this just a coincidence? No — it is the result of extremely careful analyses using a technique that works."
http://ncse.com/rncse/20/3/radiometric-dating-does-work

 

[AV1611VET]

Incremental heating experiments on 12 samples of sanidine yielded 46 data points that resulted in an isochron age of 1925 years.

After how many tries?

 

[Loudmouth]

After how many tries?

"This is not the only dating study to be done on an historic lava flow. Two extensive studies done more than 25 years ago involved analyzing the isotopic composition of argon in such flows to determine if the source of the argon was atmospheric, as must be assumed in K-Ar dating (Dalrymple 1969, 26 flows; Krummenacher 1970, 19 flows). Both studies detected, in a few of the flows, deviations from atmospheric isotopic composition, most often in the form of excess 40Ar. The majority of flows, however, had no detectable excess 40Ar and thus gave correct ages as expected. Of the handful of flows that did contain excess 40Ar, only a few did so in significant amounts. The 122 BCE flow from Mt Etna, for example, gave an erroneous age of 0.25 +/- 0.08 Ma. Note, however, that even an error of 0.25 Ma would be insignificant in a 20 Ma flow with equivalent potassium content."
http://ncse.com/rncse/20/3/radiometric-dating-does-work

It has been studied inside and out on multiple lava flows of known age. The most background you will get is less than 1 percent for a 100 million year old rock.

 

[AV1611VET]

The majority of flows, however, had no detectable excess 40Ar and thus gave correct ages as expected.

After how many tries?

 

[Loudmouth]

After how many tries?

They looked at 45 lava flows.

Once again, you refuse to accept reality. This isn't some idea on paper. This is what happens with real rocks and real lava flows.

 

[Aldebaran]

Radiometric dating is the physical time period between now and when the rock first solidified.

So the lava didn't exist before it solidified?

 

[Subduction Zone]

So the lava didn't exist before it solidified?

Certain radiometric clocks are reset in molten rock. For example the K/Ar clock that Loudmouth mentioned.

 

[Loudmouth]

So the lava didn't exist before it solidified?

Argon didn't exist in the lava when it solidified.

 

[AV1611VET]

They looked at 45 lava flows.

You don't know what I mean by that question, do you?

 

[Loudmouth]

You don't know what I mean by that question, do you?

You think they are making the data up?

 

[Catherineanne]

Some creationists make the claim that God created the Earth with maturity or embedded age during the initial creation of the Earth which is why rocks appear to be millions to billions of years old when measured with radiometric dating. The problem is that this requires God to put fake fossils in the ground.

1. When a T. rex or other large animal dies, it doesn't dig through hundreds of feet of solid basalt rock and make a fossil.

2. Therefore, any lava flows found above a fossil had to occur AFTER the organism died.

3. Lava flows found above fossils date to millions of years old which creationists claim were created during the initial creation of the Earth.

4. Therefore, if embedded age or mature Earth is correct, God had to plant fake fossils under those rocks during the initial creation of the Earth.

All of which makes God hugely deceptive and a bigger liar than Satan.

Rather a non starter, that one.

 

[Catherineanne]

Actually if anybody has blasphemous beliefs it would have to be you. As the Christians at Biologos point out an "embedded age" would be a case of God lying, not once but many many times. The view of a lying God is rather blasphemous and I would have to agree with them on that.

This is indeed true. The Christian God is not capable of lying, and certainly not on the massive scale required for embedded age.

God can choose how to create the universe. Having chosen, it makes no sense whatever to deceive everyone, presumably to test our faith in having a God capable of deceiving everyone simply to test faith.

That kind of God is not worth having and bears no relation whatever to God as revealed in Christ.

I can believe the diamonds I own are c 3 billion years old and the earth and universe however old science says they are. I can't believe that God is capable of lying.

 

[AV1611VET]

I can believe the diamonds I own are c 3 billion years old and the earth and universe however old science says they are.

So can I.

I can't believe that God is capable of lying.

Neither can I.

 

[Loudmouth]

I can believe the diamonds I own are c 3 billion years old and the earth and universe however old science says they are. I can't believe that God is capable of lying.

Why shouldn't we believe the evidence found in the creation? Or am I misreading what you wrote?

 

[Subduction Zone]

So can I.


Neither can I.

You are contradicting yourself again.

 

[davedajobauk]

It didn't have to.

The rock came to it.
Underneath the earth's crust is liquid rock, and I've seen it explained like a cut on a person's arm.
You get a cut and it bleeds until it scabs.
Basalt rock is like that.
The earth gets a crack, and it "bleeds lava" until a "scab" (basalt rock) forms.
Flood comes, Mr. Rex drowns and sinks down.
On his way down, he meets lava coming up.
Lava surrounds Mr. Rex and solidifies into basalt rock.
What's the problem here?

No problem... it is quite clear that the 'animal' predated the the outpouring of lava
With the inevitable FACT arising....
That the date of, the basalt outpouring, is radiometrically discovered, confirming it's 'age' .......
Likewise, with plant and seed material found beneath the remains and comparing the
the rings in fossilised trees with evidence found in ice cores at the poles, 'dates', can be inferred
from, the content of the atmosphere throughout the millenia

Again, we see that CHRONOLOGY 'problem' ....
written history (as witnessed 'face to face' ) is limited-to ~what is written
Facts, are facts and therefore as 'truth' they can only be denied and NOT 'made false)

The Bible says folks lived beyond 300 years (before the 'fall')
Human (average) life-expectancy has only recently (generally speaking) become extended
from the 30's to 70's (There have been exceptions )
That can happen, by survival of the fittest... 'natural selection'
ie: defective / less resilient genes, becoming diminished

dave

 

[davedajobauk]

↑
I claim rocks are old because God embedded age into them.
>
>

I don't claim "rocks date old" -- I claim "rocks are old."
So even if go to Hawaii and watch lava solidify in to brand new rocks, you are saying that those rocks are old? By what measure?

And what, pray tell, does "put embedded age into them" mean?
As you have described it before, embedded age is the inclusion of daughter isotopes to give rocks the appearance of being old when they are dated with radiometric methods. I take it that you are running away from those previous positions?

___________________________________________

^^^^
The Earth is continuously reworking the surface material
How long specific rock formations have existed in the surface material can be assessed
by reading the composition of it's present isotopic condition
Yes new lava flows can pick up boulders and other loose materials, which then becomes embedded
inside the new forming rock. This, does not, make the new lava flow into OLD ROCK

Likewise, if ancient lava flows and many layers of compressed solidified sediment from an ancient sea floor
in land now pushed-up hundreds of feet, above sea level, cover, embedded animal and plant fossils
Those fossils, MUST.... have predated the ancient flooding (sea floor) and those lava flows
and so, it got there (where found)
far earlier, than man has read from written words (from any source) even millions of years, before 'man was created'

This is not blasphemy.... for, that the animals were made before men is biblical [I'm sure]
It is man's attempts to assert a TIME, (a timing) to God's creations and destructions, that is showing the shortcomings

dave

 

[Catherineanne]

Why shouldn't we believe the evidence found in the creation? Or am I misreading what you wrote?

What I wrote was clear enough. It is satan who is the father of ALL lies, not God. A creation with embedded age would be the product of a satanic being and those who approve of it, well, no doubt that one does not need to be spelled out.

God does not deceive. Our understanding may change, but he does not.