Ellen White on the Sabbath

[bbbbbbb]

Which reference states that sin is only sin on knowledge?

bugkiller

If that were the case then it would be a sin to preach the gospel to anyone because if they reject the gospel they will be lost forever. Thus, if we only keep people ignorant they will be saved. As one as has said, "Ignorance is bliss." That was probably the same one who said, "A certain individual is in the details."

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Catholic Church did not change the 7th day of the week to the First day of the week. Your claim of our claim is in error.

What is claimed is that the sacredness, or sanctity, that belonged to the Seventh-Day, was transferred or placed upon the First Day of the week.

Thus, while in technical terms, the day itself was not "changed", in God's eyes, the sanctity of the day was changed, despite the rhetoric Catholics may use to try and justify it not being changed.

Ellen White was using simple language of how "God saw it". In the Papacy placing sanctity toward Sunday in honor of the resurrection, God saw that what the Papacy was actually doing was changing the day from Saturday to Sunday, despite all the hoops and subterfuge utilized and employed in language to obscure this reality.

Your claims are in error. The sanctity of the 7th day remains for those who are under the law because they follow the ten commandments and the other laws governing the sabbath. The Lord's day is a different day with a different sanctity for different reasons and under a different law.

Neither you nor Ellen White are qualified to speak for God or tell us what is what in God's eyes. You are not commissioned to teach in the house of God. That responsibility falls on those who are in apostolic succession.

 

[Elder 111]

One thing I did not say was that Isa 58:13 uses the phrase the Lord's Day.

The challenge is the sabbath is no called the Lord's Day anywhere in Scripture.

Apparently we do not call the sabbath the Lord's Day in English. I checked several translations and pharaphrase versions and only a paraphrased version comes close to saying the Lord's Day. I then wonder why none of the language professionals used the Lord's Day in Isa 58:13. I need an answer for this universal common mistake. Isa 58 is addressed exclusively to Israel (the House of Jacob [Isreal]).

I did not admit that Isaiah calls the sabbath the Lord's Day.

My discussion was not about possession. And neither is Rev 1:10.

No it would not be correct to call the sabbath the Lord's Day any more than it is techincally correct to refer to Sunday as the sabbath found in Ex 20.

About worship - it is rather odd that the SDA folks here say they celebrate the God of creation and that event. The main item signifying the keeping of the sabbath to them is worship on the sabbath. Check out their hymnal. They have and sing hymns to the sabbath. If anyone wants the words to a few of them they right next to my puter.

I also do not admit to keeping any ceremonial law. Worship is not a law found in the 10 Cs. Worship just like sin was before the law.

Are collections part of anything other than a general meeting on a regular specified basis? The mere receiving of funds is not taking up a collection of money.

Now what are the 137 mentions of the sabbath in the NT? Are they indeed about Christian assemblies? Hardly!!!!!!!!!

bugkiller

If from all that you have read in the bible you can not see the Sabbath being the lord's day, please tell me how it can be that Sunday is?
You will never get any translation saying That the Sabbath is the Lord's day. Why? Because there will be no room to accept Sunday. It is not so because of translation or interpretation but because of design. Just can not do that.
Just like Heb. 4. Mat. 5 and Mark 2. Everything that gives the Sabbath it's true status must be denied and depressed.
It is not SDA's that are being rejected but God. Why would God send the messages of Rev. 14? Why call for worship and keeping His commandments?

 

[Elder 111]

Your claims are in error. The sanctity of the 7th day remains for those who are under the law because they follow the ten commandments and the other laws governing the sabbath. The Lord's day is a different day with a different sanctity for different reasons and under a different law.

Neither you nor Ellen White are not qualified to speak for God or tell us what is what in God's eyes. You are not commissioned to teach in the house of God. That responsibility falls on those who are in apostolic succession.

How come those of the apostle themselves kept the Sabbath, never told the Gentle not to when there were instruction them in Acts 15, and never instructed to keep Sunday but those in "apostolic succession" do the opposite?

 

[MoreCoffee]

How come those of the apostle themselves kept the Sabbath, never told the Gentle not to when there were instruction them in Acts 15, and never instructed to keep Sunday but those in "apostolic succession" do the opposite?

They were told, haven't you read these verses?

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. (Colossians 2:16-19)​

 

[Elder 111]

They were told, haven't you read these verses?

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. (Colossians 2:16-19)​

The Sabbath days here are not the weekly Sabbath or 7th day of the week. That is clear in the original transcript.
It is also clear that it could not be the weekly Sabbath from the point of view that weekly Sabbath did not point to something to come but was clearly stated by God to point to that which was pass, that is the creation and Him as creator.

 

[bugkiller]

If that were the case then it would be a sin to preach the gospel to anyone because if they reject the gospel they will be lost forever. Thus, if we only keep people ignorant they will be saved. As one as has said, "Ignorance is bliss." That was probably the same one who said, "A certain individual is in the details."

Is that not what the SDA do here? And they make an issue of it as well.

bugkiller

 

[Dale]

Lysimachus,

I was not changing the subject with my post about James. I made a perfectly honest point that the most Jewish-oriented Apostle did not make sabbath-keeping a compulsion under OT law or even a way of earning divine bonus points, in his Epistle. Instead, the Apostle James didn’t think the Jewish sabbath was worth mentioning. That ought to give you something to think about.

Apparently you do believe that God will destroy the souls of those who chose to worship on the wrong day of the week. I find this very difficult to believe.


You also quoted Hebrews, which brings us to another fascinating point. Traditionally, it was assumed that Hebrews was written by Paul. Scholars now strongly believe that it was written by someone who was a member of the hereditary Jewish priesthood, an Aaronic priest. It was written following the destruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem by Roman armies in 70 AD. It is difficult to Christians today to grasp the magnitude of this event for Jews living at the time.

The author of Hebrews was both an Aaronic priest and a Christian and sought to answer the question: with the Temple destroyed, what is left for the Jews? He could have answered this question by clinging to OT rituals such as the sabbath. He could have said, without a Temple, we can’t sacrifice, but we can maintain our Jewish identity by observing the sabbath. The author of Hebrews did not take this course.

The only mention of sabbath is in the fourth chapter of Hebrews, where the author uses a sabbath analogy. God created the world in six days, then rested, not just for a day, but forever. Likewise, when Christians enter paradise, they enter the rest that God has provided. When Christians enter their reward, they will rest not only for a day, but forever. The sabbath rest spoken of in the Book of Hebrews, written by a hereditary Jewish priest, is not an Old Testament compulsion but the promise of eternal rest for Christians in paradise.

Outside of this analogy, the word sabbath does not occur in Hebrews, just as it does not occur in James.

Think about it!

*

*

 

[bugkiller]

No it is because it is not in the original language.

I wager Isa 58:13 was looked at with a lexicon to back the argument presented.

The cited references are out of context proof texts to support a predetermined outcome demanded.

I have no problem with the Rev 14 text. I have a problem with the out of context demanded meaning from the pro law camp.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Since when does living like a Gentile mean keeping the sabbath?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Col 2:16 is a list of items. It is not a list with an explanation.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Now this is where we get ridiculous.
You have clearly indicated that the Lord said that it is His day.Isa. 58: 13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words.
Under all circumstances, we who use the English language would also say the Lord's day when making reference to the passage above. It denotes who's it is, as does the word "my".
Jesus says He is lord of the Sabbath. It would not be incorrect for anyone to state that the day is Jesus' day or the Lord's (as He is Lord) in reference to the same. again it denotes ownership.
God has blessed, sanctified and made the day Holy. For whom? Is it not to Himself? For He alone is holy.Then if it is His, it would be indeed correct to use the term "the Lord's day" in reference to the same.

How is worship a celebration? Then ofcourse you her admit that you keep ceremonial law just on the day you prefer and not on the one God chose Himself.

The problem is that there is no statement of a service at all. It is not for the church but for the needy. Who says that such funds were collect in church only or on the day of worship only? Collections are made in my church on days besides the Sabbath and I am certain that collections are made in other churches besides on Sundays. There is therefore no reason to accept that this one statement in all scripture over rides the Sabbath that is mentioned 137 time in the KJV.​

Why was my request avoided?

bugkiller​

 

[Lysimachus]

Lysimachus,

I was not changing the subject with my post about James. I made a perfectly honest point that the most Jewish-oriented Apostle did not make sabbath-keeping a compulsion under OT law or even a way of earning divine bonus points, in his Epistle. Instead, the Apostle James didn’t think the Jewish sabbath was worth mentioning. That ought to give you something to think about.

Apparently you do believe that God will destroy the souls of those who chose to worship on the wrong day of the week. I find this very difficult to believe.


You also quoted Hebrews, which brings us to another fascinating point. Traditionally, it was assumed that Hebrews was written by Paul. Scholars now strongly believe that it was written by someone who was a member of the hereditary Jewish priesthood, an Aaronic priest. It was written following the destruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem by Roman armies in 70 AD. It is difficult to Christians today to grasp the magnitude of this event for Jews living at the time.

The author of Hebrews was both an Aaronic priest and a Christian and sought to answer the question: with the Temple destroyed, what is left for the Jews? He could have answered this question by clinging to OT rituals such as the sabbath. He could have said, without a Temple, we can’t sacrifice, but we can maintain our Jewish identity by observing the sabbath. The author of Hebrews did not take this course.

The only mention of sabbath is in the fourth chapter of Hebrews, where the author uses a sabbath analogy. God created the world in six days, then rested, not just for a day, but forever. Likewise, when Christians enter paradise, they enter the rest that God has provided. When Christians enter their reward, they will rest not only for a day, but forever. The sabbath rest spoken of in the Book of Hebrews, written by a hereditary Jewish priest, is not an Old Testament compulsion but the promise of eternal rest for Christians in paradise.

Outside of this analogy, the word sabbath does not occur in Hebrews, just as it does not occur in James.

Think about it!

*

*

You are now arguing an entire different topic than your original charge: That being, that somehow I think those who were loyal Sunday keepers are condemned.

Now you are back to round 1: Is the Sabbath valid for the New Testament. I don't mind changing the subject, but you do seem very unwilling to admit that you steered the subject from your original argument.

It is not my purpose to keep on quibbling on this point. I will simply lay down why I believe the Sabbath is valid in the New Covenant:

Vindicating God’s Creation Sabbath & His Eternal Moral Ten Commandment Law
Scriptural Reference Sheet​

Sabbath was instituted, blessed, and sanctified at Creation – long before animal sacrifices were given, long before the laws of Moses were given to the Jews, and 2000 years before any Jew existed:
See Genesis 2:1-3

Sabbath was made for man – meaning, it was made for their rest – not to be a legalistic burden as the Pharisees made it. The Sabbath was made for man at creation:
See Mark 2:27,28

The Ten Commandments existed between Adam and Sinai:

First — Genesis 35:2-4
Second — Genesis 3 1:19-34
Third — Genesis 12:3
Fourth — Exodus 16:4-26
Fifth — Genesis 9:20-25
Sixth — Genesis 4:8-15
Seventh — Genesis 39:7-9
Eighth — Genesis 44:8-16
Ninth — Genesis 27:12
Tenth — Genesis 25:29-34; 27:1-45​

Israel had largely lost sight of the principles of God's law while in Egyptian bondage. So God wrote that law with His own finger to bring it forcibly back to mind.

The Sabbath is part of the Ten Commandments, the 4th commandment on the first Table of Stone defining our duty toward God. It was written by God’s own finger and begins with the word “Remember”, indicating that one day many would forget:
See Exodus 20:8-11

The Sabbath is to be a perpetual covenant and a sign between God and the children of Israel “for ever”:
See Exodus 31:16,17

We are now spiritual Israel, and this Sabbath sign transfers to the Church:
See Romans 9:8; Galatians 3:29; 4:28; Matthew 21:43 – cross reference with 1 Peter 1:1, 2:9,10 which shows that the Church inherited the original titles given to Israel given in Exodus 19:5,6; Deut. 14:2; 26:28.

After 400 years of enslavement in Egypt, Israel lost sight of God’s commandments – the commandments of their father Abraham (Gen 26:5). After Israel left Egypt, now God reintroduces to His people His laws and tests them to see if they will walk in His laws or not. He begins with the Sabbath. God’s law and His Sabbath was revealed to Israel before they arrived to Mount Sinai, before the Ten Commandments were given, and before the Old Covenant was given. Therefore, the Sabbath is not an “Old Covenant” institution. It is part of the Eternal Moral Law that transcends the Old Covenant, and is intrinsically tied to God’s Everlasting Covenant:
See Exodus 16:4, 23-30

The Seventh-Day Sabbath was distinguished and separated from the other Jewish ceremonial Sabbaths:
See Leviticus 23:31-40, especially verse 38. Also see Leviticus 23:3,4; Deut. 5:12; Psalms 92:1

There was a distinction between the eternal Moral law of Ten Commandments and the ceremonial law given to Moses to write down in the “book of the law”. The distinction between these two laws is plain.
See Deuteronomy 4:13,14; II Kings 21:8; Daniel 9:11 (note the differences between the commandments God “commanded you” and “commanded me” [Deut 4:13,14], and “I have commanded them” and “Moses commanded them” [II Kings 21:8], and “thy law” and the “law of Moses” [Dan. 9:11])

The Sabbath was made also for the gentiles as a covenant, not just for the Jews. In the Old and New Testament, gentiles were often termed “strangers” (example: 1 Peter 1:1).
See Isaiah 56:1-8; Mark 2:27,28

The Sabbath day is to be a delight, and there is a promise of eternal inheritance to those who keep it Holy, honour him, not doing our own ways nor finding our own pleasure or speaking our own words:
See Isaiah 58:1, 12-14

The Sabbath will be kept in the new heavens and the new earth. This is yet future. ALL flesh (not just Jews) will come to worship Him on this day:
See Isaiah 66:22,23

Jerusalem would have stood forever and not been destroyed by Babylon had they kept the Sabbath Holy:
See Jeremiah 17:21-25

The Sabbath is a sign of sanctification. It is a sign that the Lord sanctifies us, and the Lord sanctifies us through His Holy Spirit:
See Exodus 31:13; Ezekiel 20:12

In Matthew 24, concerning the siege of Jerusalem that would transpire in 70 A.D., Jesus told the disciples to pray that their flight be not in the winter neither on the Sabbath day. The context of Matthew 24 is also referring to the very end of the world. The prophecy has a dual application.
See Matthew 24:20-21

The Sabbath was a day for “convocation”—meaning, coming together and meeting together for Church fellowship and worship. When Paul in Hebrews 10:25 admonishes us to “not forsake the assembling of ourselves together”, he was mirroring Leviticus 23:3, when the Sabbath was the day for “convocation” (every Sabbath Paul assembled with the Jews and Greeks for worship as will be shown further down).
See Leviticus 23:3; Hebrews 10:25

It was Jesus’ custom to worship on the Sabbath:
See Luke 4:16

Jesus declared it was “lawful” to do good on the Sabbath day. By implication, there are “unlawful” things to do on the Sabbath as well:
See Luke 6:9; Matthew 12:8, 10-12

It was Paul’s custom as well to worship every Sabbath and reason with the Jews and Greeks out of the scriptures. Every Sabbath he preached to the Jews and the Greeks in the synagogue (a church building):
See Acts 17:2; Acts 18:4; Acts 13:42-44

Luke, a gentile gospel writer, 32 years after Christ’s ascension recognized the resting on the Sabbath day as “according to the commandment”. This Sabbath observance that was “according to the commandment” took place the day after Jesus died:
See Luke 23:54-56

Note that the New Covenant was in effect already on Friday, by the shedding of Christ’s blood. A covenant is in effect by the shedding of blood, not the resurrection. Had the blood of the New Covenant wiped away the need for Sabbath observance, Luke would not have recognized it as “according to the commandment”:
See Hebrews 9:16,17, 22; and Galatians 3:15

The Sabbath day was important in the lifestyle of even Christians in gentile cities:
See Acts 16:9-12

Paul connects the Seventh-Day Sabbath of creation with our eternal rest in Christ Jesus. He shows how the Sabbath is a symbol or sign that expresses or signifies our eternal rest in Christ. The word “rest” in Hebrews 4:9 is “sabbatismos” in the original Greek, and it means “Sabbath keeping”. Literally, it says “There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God” (NIV). Verse 10 then goes on to emphasize how we are to cease from our own works on the Sabbath as God did from His:
See Hebrews 4:1-11

The Epistle James quotes from two of the Ten Commandments, and tells us that we are to “speak” and “do” them, for we will be judged by this law of liberty (liberty from sin):
See James 2:8-13

Paul emphasizes not only how we will be judged by the law, but only doers of the law will be justified. Note that Paul does not say we are justified by the law, but yet only doers will be justified. Big difference:
See Romans 2:12-15

God’s end-time people will be those who keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus:
See Revelation 14:2

Satan, the dragon, is angry with the woman (God’s Church) and makes war with the remnant of her seed who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ:
See Revelation 12:17

If we love God, and will enter life, we will keep His commandments, and they will not be burdensome:
See Matthew 19:17; John 14:15; John 14:21; John 15:10; 1 John 2:3-7; 1 John 5:2-5; 2 John 1:5,6; 3 John 1:4

Jesus teaches us that there are two great commandments: (1) To love God with all our heart, mind, and soul, and (2) To love our neighbor as ourselves. Some believe that these “two great commandments” replace the Ten Commandments. Yet Jesus continues on by saying “on these two commandments hang ALL the law and the prophets”. This principle is clearly paralleled in the Two Tables of Stone. The first 4 commandments on Table One define our duty and love toward God, and the last 6 commandments on Table Two define our duty and love toward our fellowmen:
See Matthew 22:35-40

All of God’s commandments are truth, and we will walk in truth:
See 3 John 1:4; Psalms 119:151

All of God’s commandments are sure, and they stand fast forever and ever and are done in truth and uprightness. They will never change:
See Psalms 111:7-10

The Ten Commandments are the only words God wrote in Stone with His own omnipotent finger—declaring their perpetual and everlasting nature. They are also the only words He thundered with His audible voice to human beings. God did not audibly speak the Jewish ceremonial laws revolving the sanctuary to the children of Israel, but relayed them to Moses and Moses in turn relayed them to the people. But what does God say concerning those words that He has uttered from His lips?:
See Psalms 89:34

Jesus told His disciples that till heaven and earth pass, not one jot or one tittle will in no wise pass away from the law, till all is accomplished. Clearly heaven and earth have not passed away:
See Matthew 5:17-19; Luke 16:17

Every person will be judged and rewarded “according to their works” or deeds:
See Revelation 22:12,13; Matthew 16:27; Romans 2:5,6; 2 Cor 11:15

Not everyone that says “Lord, Lord” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that “DOETH the will of my Father”. Many of these will “prophesy in God’s name”, will in His name “cast out devils” and do “many wonderful works”, yet God will say unto them “I never knew you, depart from me, ye that work lawlessness”:
See Matthew 7:21-23

The duty of every man is to fear God and keep His commandments, for God will bring every work into judgment with every secret thing, whether it be good or evil:
See Ecclesiastes 12:13,14

Only those who DO his commandments will have right to the tree of life and will enter in through the gates into the city:
See Revelation 22:14

The Ten Commandments, or two tables of stone, were contained inside the Ark of the Covenant of the Hebrew sanctuary or temple, inside the Second Apartment or Most Holy Place. The entire Hebrew sanctuary and its components was a “copy” or an “example” or a “pattern” or a “figure” of the true tabernacle or sanctuary in heaven:
See Hebrews 8:5; 9:23,24

The Ten Commandments in the Old Testament were called the “testimony” or the “tables of the testimony” that were placed inside the Ark:
See Exodus 25:16, 21,22; Exodus 31:18; 32:15; 34:29

The original Temple or Sanctuary in Heaven contains the original Ark of the Covenant where Jesus ministers. This same Ark contains the original copy of the Ten Commandments, or “testimony” that was given to Moses. This sanctuary is where all by faith come before God to obtain mercy and grace, and we are being judged by that law of liberty contained in the original Ark of His Testament in Heaven:
See Revelation 11:19 and 15:5

 

[Dale]

There is much confusion on this thread on the meaning of “the Lord's day” in Revelation 1:10, at least on this thread. Here is what the famous 18th century Protestant commentator John Gill had to say about it.




Quote


Revelation 1:10

Ver. 10. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day,.... Not on the Jewish sabbath, which was now abolished, nor was that ever called the Lord's day, and had John meant that, he would have said on the sabbath day; much less the Jewish passover, but the first day of the week is designed; so the Ethiopic version renders it "on the first day"; and is so called just as the ordinance of the supper is called the Lord's supper, being instituted by the Lord, and the Lord's table, 1Co 10:21, and that because it was the day in which our Lord rose from the dead, Mr 16:9; and in which he appeared at different times to his disciples, Joh 20:19, and which the primitive churches set apart for his worship and service, and on which they met together to hear the word, and attend on ordinances, Ac 20:7; and Justin Martyr {z} tells us, who lived within about fifty years after this time, that on the day called th touhliou hmera, "Sunday", (by the Greeks,) the Christians met together in one place, and read the Scriptures, and prayed together, and administered the ordinance of the supper; and this, he adds, was the first day in which God created the World, and our Saviour Jesus Christ rose from the dead; yea, Barnabas {a}, the companion of the Apostle Paul, calls this day the eighth day, in distinction from the seventh day sabbath of the Jews, and which he says is the beginning of another world; and therefore we keep the eighth day, adds he, joyfully, in which Jesus rose from the dead, and being manifested, ascended unto heaven: and this day was known by the ancients by the name of "the Lord's day"; as by Ignatius {b}, Irenaeus {c}, Tertullian {d}, Origen {e}, and others; for it must be some day that was known by this name, otherwise it is mentioned to no purpose, because it would not be distinctive from others; for which reason it cannot merely design the day in which John saw this vision, because the Lord appeared on it to him, for this would not distinguish it from any other day. Some have conjectured that this was not the weekly Lord's day observed by the Christians, but the anniversary of Christ's resurrection; and so the Ethiopians still call Easter "Schambatah Crostos", the sabbath of Christ: to understand it of the former is best.
End Quote


Source:


John Gill's Exposition of the whole Bible.


Under Revelation 1


*


*

 

[Lysimachus]

Some Misunderstood Verses Explained

Question 1: But doesn’t Revelation 1:10 say that Sunday is the “Lord’s Day”?

Answer: The Bible plainly identifies which day is the “Lord’s Day”. Matthew 12:8; Mark 2:28 and Luke 6:5 identifies Jesus as the “Lord of the Sabbath”. In Isaiah 58:13 the Lord calls the Sabbath “my holy day”, and the “holy of the Lord”. Exodus 20:10; Leviticus 23:3 and Deuteronomy 5:14 calls it the “Sabbath of the Lord”. Thus, allowing the Bible to explain the Bible, clearly the Sabbath is the “Lord’s Day”, and none other.

Question 2: Shouldn’t we keep Sunday in honor of the resurrection?

Answer: No! No more than you would keep Friday in honor of the crucifixion. As clearly revealed in Romans 6:3-6, Christ gave the ordinance of baptism in honor of His death, burial, and resurrection. The Bible never suggests Sundaykeeping in honor of the resurrection (or for any other reason, for that matter). We honor Christ by obeying Him (John 14:15)--not by substituting man-made requirements in place of His.

Question 3: Isn't Acts 20:7-12 proof that the disciples kept Sunday as a holy day? (Acts 20:7)?

Answer: According to the Bible, each day begins at sundown and ends at the next sundown (Genesis 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23, 31; Leviticus 23:32) and the dark part of the day comes first. So Sabbath begins Friday night at sundown and ends Saturday night at sundown. This meeting of Acts 20 was held on the dark part of Sunday, or on what we now call Saturday night. The New English Bible begins Acts 20:7 like this: "On the Saturday night in our assembly ..." It was a Saturday-night meeting as evidenced in verse 8 where it says “and there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together”, and it lasted until midnight. Paul was on a farewell tour and knew he would not see these people again before his death (verse 25). No wonder he preached so long! (No regular weekly service would have lasted all night.) Paul was "ready to depart on the morrow." He spent his entire day on Sunday traveling by foot and sailing. Does that sound like a “Sabbath” activity? The "breaking of bread" has no "holy day" significance whatever, because they broke bread daily (Acts 2:46). There is not the slightest indication in this Scripture passage that the first day is holy, nor that these early Christians considered it so. Nor is there the remotest evidence that the Sabbath had been changed. Incidentally, this meeting is probably mentioned in the Scripture only because of the miracle of raising Eutychus back to life after he fell to his death from a third-floor window. In Ezekiel 46:1, God refers to Sunday as one of the six "working days." Some may argue that even though the disciples came together Saturday night (which Biblically speaking begins the “first day” of the week), it was still the first day nonetheless and they were respecting it in honor of the resurrection. Assuming this is true, we discover a big problem. Christ rose early Sunday morning, not Saturday night. If the disciples were giving any respect to Sunday in honor of the resurrection, then why were they celebrating it during the time when Jesus was still dead and buried in the grave? As we can see, the arguments that Sundaykeepers use have no bearings whatsoever.

Question 4: Doesn't 1 Corinthians 16:1, 2 speak of Sunday school offerings? (1 Corinthians 16:2 )?

Answer: No, there is no reference here to a public meeting. The money was to be laid aside privately at home. A famine was raging in Judea (Romans 15:26; Acts 11:26-30), and Paul was writing to ask the churches in Asia Minor to assist their famine-stricken brethren. These Christians all kept Sabbath holy, so Paul suggested that on Sunday morning (which was the time they paid bills and settled accounts), after the Sabbath was over, they put aside something for their needy brethren so it would be on hand when he came. It was to be done privately or, as La Santa Biblia (a Spanish translation) says, "at home." Notice also that there is no reference here to Sunday as a holy day. In fact, the Bible nowhere commands or even suggests Sundaykeeping. By laying aside money, they were actually working on Sunday!

Question 5: Doesn't Colossians 2:14-17 do away with the seventh-day Sabbath?

Answer: Not at all. It refers only to the sabbaths which were "a shadow of things to come" and not to the seventh-day Sabbath. There were seven yearly holy days, or holidays, in ancient Israel which were also called sabbaths. These were in addition to, or "beside the sabbaths of the Lord" (Leviticus 23:38), or seventh-day Sabbath. These all foreshadowed, or pointed to, the cross and ended at the cross. God's seventh-day Sabbath was made before sin entered, and therefore could foreshadow nothing about deliverance from sin. That's why Colossians chapter 2 differentiates and specifically mentions the sabbaths that were "a shadow." These seven yearly sabbaths which were abolished are listed in Leviticus chapter 23. Additionally, Colossians 2:14 qualifies that it was the “handwriting of ordinances that was against us” that were “blotted out” at the cross. Therefore, all the, “new moons”, “feast days” and “Sabbath days” that are mentioned in verse 16 can only be those contained in the “handwriting of ordinances that were against us”. But what were these “handwriting of ordinances”? It had to do with the Jewish ceremonial laws that were written down on paper by the hand of Moses, not the finger of God on stone. Also, it had to do with all those ceremonial ordinances that were “against us”. In Deuteronomy 31:24-28, we are told that all those ritual laws that were “against us” were written by Moses in the “book of the law”. The passage is clear that this “book of the law” was placed in a side pocket of the Ark of the Covenant. According to Deuteronomy 10:5, the “tables” of stone were placed inside the Ark! Clearly, the Sabbath of the 4th commandment was part of the Ten Commandments placed inside the Ark of the Covenant, and not classified with the “shadow Sabbaths” of Colossians 2:14-17 that pointed forward to Christ’s death. The “shadow Sabbaths” along with the entire ceremonial law pointed FORWARD to Christ’s death, and these were nailed to the cross. The Sabbath of the 4th commandment points BACKWARD to creation. It was not made “against” us, but “for” us. “The Sabbath was made for [not against!] man” (Mark 2:27).

Question 6: But what about Romans 14:5? Doesn’t it say that we are to esteem every day alike, and not esteem one day over another?

Answer: Notice that the whole chapter is on judging one another (Verses 4, 10, 13). The issue here is not over the seventh-day Sabbath, which was a part of the great moral law, but over the yearly feast days of the ceremonial law. Jewish Christians were judging Gentile Christians for not observing them. Paul is simply saying, "Don't judge each other. That ceremonial law is no longer binding." Additionally, the issue of contention in Romans 14:1 is in regard to “doubtful disputations”. There has never been anything doubtful concerning the Ten Commandments. It is to be remembered that the Jews regarded the Sabbath in much greater esteem than they did circumcision. However, the Jews were never once concerned about Paul breaking the Sabbath. It was always over circumcision and not paying respect to the other rituals of the ceremonial law. Had Paul not kept the Sabbath and broken it, an outcry from the Jews would have broken out throughout the land that Paul was a violator of the Sabbath. But no, their issue of contention with Paul was always over circumcision. The holidays being spoken of in Romans 14 had to do with Jewish and Gentile holidays which “men esteem”. Notice that the “days” in question have to do with days then “men esteem”, not which day “God esteems”. God esteems the Seventh-Day Sabbath. Now if man chooses to celebrate an additional Holiday, then if they are going to do it, let them do it unto the Lord. It’s like Thanksgiving or Christmas. Traditionally we celebrate these Holidays. Is it required from the Bible that we keep these days? Of course not. But, according to Romans 14, if we choose to celebrate these days, let us do it unto the Lord. Let everyone be persuaded (or “convinced”) in his own mind. The Seventh-Day Sabbath of the 4th commandment has nothing to do with which days “men esteem”. That is already settled in stone.

Question 7: But isn't John 20:19 the record of the disciples instituting Sundaykeeping in honor of the resurrection? (John 20:19)

Answer: On the contrary, the disciples at this time did not believe that the resurrection had taken place (Mark 16:14). They had met there "for fear of the Jews" and had the doors bolted. When Jesus appeared in their midst, He rebuked them "because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen." There is no implication that they counted Sunday as a holy day. Only eight texts in the New Testament mention the first day of the week; none of them imply that it is holy.

 

[Dale]

Lysimachus in post #413:
“Luke, a gentile gospel writer, 32 years after Christ‘s ascension recognized the resting on the sabbath day as ‘according to the commandment.’ took place after Jesus died. Luke 23:54-56”

Luke 23:55-56:
The women who had come with Jesus from Galilee followed Joseph and saw the tomb and how his body was laid in it. Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the sabbath in obedience to the commandment.


Lysimachus, you’re not being honest with us. The women rested on the Jewish sabbath before the resurrection. A child can see that.

I reject the notion that all of the Ten Commandments were in effect before they were given at Sinai.

You have not seriously considered the points I made about James and Hebrews.


*

*

 

[Lysimachus]

Lysimachus in post #413:
“Luke, a gentile gospel writer, 32 years after Christ‘s ascension recognized the resting on the sabbath day as ‘according to the commandment.’ took place after Jesus died. Luke 23:54-56”

Luke 23:55-56:
The women who had come with Jesus from Galilee followed Joseph and saw the tomb and how his body was laid in it. Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the sabbath in obedience to the commandment.


Lysimachus, you’re not being honest with us. The women rested on the Jewish sabbath before the resurrection. A child can see that.

I reject the notion that all of the Ten Commandments were in effect before they were given at Sinai.

You have not seriously considered the points I made about James and Hebrews.


*

*

Apparently you did not pay attention to the argument.

Luke, a gentile gospel writer, 32 years after Christ’s ascension recognized the resting on the Sabbath day as “according to the commandment”. This Sabbath observance that was “according to the commandment” took place the day after Jesus died:
See Luke 23:54-56

Note that the New Covenant was in effect already on Friday, by the shedding of Christ’s blood. A covenant is in effect by the shedding of blood, not the resurrection. Had the blood of the New Covenant wiped away the need for Sabbath observance, Luke would not have recognized it as “according to the commandment”:
See Hebrews 9:16,17, 22; and Galatians 3:15

The point?

If nothing can be added or subtracted to the covenant after the covenant has gone into effect according to Galatians 3:15, then Sunday came 3 days too late. The New Covenant was in effect on Friday--and by what according to Hebrews 9:16-22? According to the shedding of the blood of the testator. Not the resurrection.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Sabbath days here are not the weekly Sabbath or 7th day of the week. That is clear in the original transcript.

Nobody has an original manuscript (is manuscript what you meant?) but we do have Greek manuscripts that show Paul did mean the weekly sabbaths and monthly new moons and annual feasts. All of which are past and gone, none of which is binding on Christians.

It is also clear that it could not be the weekly Sabbath from the point of view that weekly Sabbath did not point to something to come but was clearly stated by God to point to that which was pass, that is the creation and Him as creator.

You need to read Hebrews chapters three and four if you (mistakenly) think that the weekly sabbath did not point to something that is now fulfilled in Christ. Haven't you read these verses?

For he has spoken somewhere about the seventh day in this manner, "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works"; and again, in the previously mentioned place, "They shall not enter into my rest." Therefore, since it remains that some will enter into it, and those who formerly received the good news did not enter because of disobedience, he once more set a day, "today," when long afterwards he spoke through David, as already quoted: "Oh, that today you would hear his voice: 'Harden not your hearts.'" Now if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterwards of another day. Therefore, a sabbath rest still remains for the people of God. And whoever enters into God's rest, rests from his own works as God did from his. Therefore, let us strive to enter into that rest, so that no one may fall after the same example of disobedience. (Hebrews 4:4-11)
​

 

[Elder 111]

Why was my request avoided?

bugkiller

What request is that?

 

[bugkiller]

You are now arguing an entire different topic than your original charge: That being, that somehow I think those who were loyal Sunday keepers are condemned.

Now you are back to round 1: Is the Sabbath valid for the New Testament. I don't mind changing the subject, but you do seem very unwilling to admit that you steered the subject from your original argument.

It is not my purpose to keep on quibbling on this point. I will simply lay down why I believe the Sabbath is valid in the New Covenant:

Vindicating God’s Creation Sabbath & His Eternal Moral Ten Commandment Law
Scriptural Reference Sheet​

Sabbath was instituted, blessed, and sanctified at Creation – long before animal sacrifices were given, long before the laws of Moses were given to the Jews, and 2000 years before any Jew existed:
See Genesis 2:1-3

Sabbath was made for man – meaning, it was made for their rest – not to be a legalistic burden as the Pharisees made it. The Sabbath was made for man at creation:
See Mark 2:27,28

The Ten Commandments existed between Adam and Sinai:

First — Genesis 35:2-4
Second — Genesis 3 1:19-34
Third — Genesis 12:3
Fourth — Exodus 16:4-26
Fifth — Genesis 9:20-25
Sixth — Genesis 4:8-15
Seventh — Genesis 39:7-9
Eighth — Genesis 44:8-16
Ninth — Genesis 27:12
Tenth — Genesis 25:29-34; 27:1-45
​

Israel had largely lost sight of the principles of God's law while in Egyptian bondage. So God wrote that law with His own finger to bring it forcibly back to mind.

The Sabbath is part of the Ten Commandments, the 4th commandment on the first Table of Stone defining our duty toward God. It was written by God’s own finger and begins with the word “Remember”, indicating that one day many would forget:
See Exodus 20:8-11

The Sabbath is to be a perpetual covenant and a sign between God and the children of Israel “for ever”:
See Exodus 31:16,17

We are now spiritual Israel, and this Sabbath sign transfers to the Church:
See Romans 9:8; Galatians 3:29; 4:28; Matthew 21:43 – cross reference with 1 Peter 1:1, 2:9,10 which shows that the Church inherited the original titles given to Israel given in Exodus 19:5,6; Deut. 14:2; 26:28.

After 400 years of enslavement in Egypt, Israel lost sight of God’s commandments – the commandments of their father Abraham (Gen 26:5). After Israel left Egypt, now God reintroduces to His people His laws and tests them to see if they will walk in His laws or not. He begins with the Sabbath. God’s law and His Sabbath was revealed to Israel before they arrived to Mount Sinai, before the Ten Commandments were given, and before the Old Covenant was given. Therefore, the Sabbath is not an “Old Covenant” institution. It is part of the Eternal Moral Law that transcends the Old Covenant, and is intrinsically tied to God’s Everlasting Covenant:
See Exodus 16:4, 23-30

The Seventh-Day Sabbath was distinguished and separated from the other Jewish ceremonial Sabbaths:
See Leviticus 23:31-40, especially verse 38. Also see Leviticus 23:3,4; Deut. 5:12; Psalms 92:1

There was a distinction between the eternal Moral law of Ten Commandments and the ceremonial law given to Moses to write down in the “book of the law”. The distinction between these two laws is plain.
See Deuteronomy 4:13,14; II Kings 21:8; Daniel 9:11 (note the differences between the commandments God “commanded you” and “commanded me” [Deut 4:13,14], and “I have commanded them” and “Moses commanded them” [II Kings 21:8], and “thy law” and the “law of Moses” [Dan. 9:11])

The Sabbath was made also for the gentiles as a covenant, not just for the Jews. In the Old and New Testament, gentiles were often termed “strangers” (example: 1 Peter 1:1).
See Isaiah 56:1-8; Mark 2:27,28

The Sabbath day is to be a delight, and there is a promise of eternal inheritance to those who keep it Holy, honour him, not doing our own ways nor finding our own pleasure or speaking our own words:
See Isaiah 58:1, 12-14

The Sabbath will be kept in the new heavens and the new earth. This is yet future. ALL flesh (not just Jews) will come to worship Him on this day:
See Isaiah 66:22,23

Jerusalem would have stood forever and not been destroyed by Babylon had they kept the Sabbath Holy:
See Jeremiah 17:21-25

The Sabbath is a sign of sanctification. It is a sign that the Lord sanctifies us, and the Lord sanctifies us through His Holy Spirit:
See Exodus 31:13; Ezekiel 20:12

In Matthew 24, concerning the siege of Jerusalem that would transpire in 70 A.D., Jesus told the disciples to pray that their flight be not in the winter neither on the Sabbath day. The context of Matthew 24 is also referring to the very end of the world. The prophecy has a dual application.
See Matthew 24:20-21

The Sabbath was a day for “convocation”—meaning, coming together and meeting together for Church fellowship and worship. When Paul in Hebrews 10:25 admonishes us to “not forsake the assembling of ourselves together”, he was mirroring Leviticus 23:3, when the Sabbath was the day for “convocation” (every Sabbath Paul assembled with the Jews and Greeks for worship as will be shown further down).
See Leviticus 23:3; Hebrews 10:25

It was Jesus’ custom to worship on the Sabbath:
See Luke 4:16

Jesus declared it was “lawful” to do good on the Sabbath day. By implication, there are “unlawful” things to do on the Sabbath as well:
See Luke 6:9; Matthew 12:8, 10-12

It was Paul’s custom as well to worship every Sabbath and reason with the Jews and Greeks out of the scriptures. Every Sabbath he preached to the Jews and the Greeks in the synagogue (a church building):
See Acts 17:2; Acts 18:4; Acts 13:42-44

Luke, a gentile gospel writer, 32 years after Christ’s ascension recognized the resting on the Sabbath day as “according to the commandment”. This Sabbath observance that was “according to the commandment” took place the day after Jesus died:
See Luke 23:54-56

Note that the New Covenant was in effect already on Friday, by the shedding of Christ’s blood. A covenant is in effect by the shedding of blood, not the resurrection. Had the blood of the New Covenant wiped away the need for Sabbath observance, Luke would not have recognized it as “according to the commandment”:
See Hebrews 9:16,17, 22; and Galatians 3:15

The Sabbath day was important in the lifestyle of even Christians in gentile cities:
See Acts 16:9-12

Paul connects the Seventh-Day Sabbath of creation with our eternal rest in Christ Jesus. He shows how the Sabbath is a symbol or sign that expresses or signifies our eternal rest in Christ. The word “rest” in Hebrews 4:9 is “sabbatismos” in the original Greek, and it means “Sabbath keeping”. Literally, it says “There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God” (NIV). Verse 10 then goes on to emphasize how we are to cease from our own works on the Sabbath as God did from His:
See Hebrews 4:1-11

The Epistle James quotes from two of the Ten Commandments, and tells us that we are to “speak” and “do” them, for we will be judged by this law of liberty (liberty from sin):
See James 2:8-13

Paul emphasizes not only how we will be judged by the law, but only doers of the law will be justified. Note that Paul does not say we are justified by the law, but yet only doers will be justified. Big difference:
See Romans 2:12-15

God’s end-time people will be those who keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus:
See Revelation 14:2

Satan, the dragon, is angry with the woman (God’s Church) and makes war with the remnant of her seed who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ:
See Revelation 12:17

If we love God, and will enter life, we will keep His commandments, and they will not be burdensome:
See Matthew 19:17; John 14:15; John 14:21; John 15:10; 1 John 2:3-7; 1 John 5:2-5; 2 John 1:5,6; 3 John 1:4

Jesus teaches us that there are two great commandments: (1) To love God with all our heart, mind, and soul, and (2) To love our neighbor as ourselves. Some believe that these “two great commandments” replace the Ten Commandments. Yet Jesus continues on by saying “on these two commandments hang ALL the law and the prophets”. This principle is clearly paralleled in the Two Tables of Stone. The first 4 commandments on Table One define our duty and love toward God, and the last 6 commandments on Table Two define our duty and love toward our fellowmen:
See Matthew 22:35-40

All of God’s commandments are truth, and we will walk in truth:
See 3 John 1:4; Psalms 119:151

All of God’s commandments are sure, and they stand fast forever and ever and are done in truth and uprightness. They will never change:
See Psalms 111:7-10

The Ten Commandments are the only words God wrote in Stone with His own omnipotent finger—declaring their perpetual and everlasting nature. They are also the only words He thundered with His audible voice to human beings. God did not audibly speak the Jewish ceremonial laws revolving the sanctuary to the children of Israel, but relayed them to Moses and Moses in turn relayed them to the people. But what does God say concerning those words that He has uttered from His lips?:
See Psalms 89:34

Jesus told His disciples that till heaven and earth pass, not one jot or one tittle will in no wise pass away from the law, till all is accomplished. Clearly heaven and earth have not passed away:
See Matthew 5:17-19; Luke 16:17

Every person will be judged and rewarded “according to their works” or deeds:
See Revelation 22:12,13; Matthew 16:27; Romans 2:5,6; 2 Cor 11:15

Not everyone that says “Lord, Lord” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that “DOETH the will of my Father”. Many of these will “prophesy in God’s name”, will in His name “cast out devils” and do “many wonderful works”, yet God will say unto them “I never knew you, depart from me, ye that work lawlessness”:
See Matthew 7:21-23

The duty of every man is to fear God and keep His commandments, for God will bring every work into judgment with every secret thing, whether it be good or evil:
See Ecclesiastes 12:13,14

Only those who DO his commandments will have right to the tree of life and will enter in through the gates into the city:
See Revelation 22:14

The Ten Commandments, or two tables of stone, were contained inside the Ark of the Covenant of the Hebrew sanctuary or temple, inside the Second Apartment or Most Holy Place. The entire Hebrew sanctuary and its components was a “copy” or an “example” or a “pattern” or a “figure” of the true tabernacle or sanctuary in heaven:
See Hebrews 8:5; 9:23,24

The Ten Commandments in the Old Testament were called the “testimony” or the “tables of the testimony” that were placed inside the Ark:
See Exodus 25:16, 21,22; Exodus 31:18; 32:15; 34:29

The original Temple or Sanctuary in Heaven contains the original Ark of the Covenant where Jesus ministers. This same Ark contains the original copy of the Ten Commandments, or “testimony” that was given to Moses. This sanctuary is where all by faith come before God to obtain mercy and grace, and we are being judged by that law of liberty contained in the original Ark of His Testament in Heaven:
See Revelation 11:19 and 15:5

I find nothing here except out of context and verses having nothing to do with the associated comments or titles which is religious denominational defense for a doctrine. I read and checked about half of the post before tiring of not finding anything valid for the Christian. The sabbath was given to Israel alone.

bugkiller