Elijah during the Tribulation

[Juelrei]

Elijah the Tishbite.

Where is that place where he was from? Has there been any archeological findings?

What is his parentage?

Is it important for the Jews to have verifiable information about a man of God in order for them to accept his ministry?

This pertains to the Biblical statements of Elijah coming again before the Messiah.

Will the Jews during the Tribulation accept Elijah, one of the two witnesses who performs mighty works of God.. if he does not bring genealogical papers with him to prove his parentage? Or if the location of Tish

(being Tishbite: here you see how much my family does not know about it)
​

is still unknown when he comes.

My thought was that since the Jews already accept him as from God, that they will not require any extra Biblical evidence when he comes before the Messiah.

It has been suggested (according to what the Jews are said to believe, or according to what a family member has thought that they believe) that Elijah is like an angel, or otherworldly in some way, as a mysterious explanation that he has no known parentage or as to why there is no known place where he came from.

Being on a par with the other Biblical person described in a similar way. (who was that man? my efforts at googling to find it have not been successful).

+++

I'd appreciate any thoughts, any information on the matter from anyone here.

 

[Bible2]

Juelrei said in post 1:

This pertains to the Biblical statements of Elijah coming again before the Messiah.

Matthew 17:10-13 can be understood as referring to 2 different comings of Elijah, the first being John the Baptist's coming "in the spirit and power of Elijah" (Luke 1:17, Matthew 17:12-13), and the 2nd being a still-future, physical coming-back of Elijah himself, when he will restore all things (Matthew 17:11), in the sense of restoring all true doctrine, i.e. all true interpretation of the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16), to the church. This still-future, physical coming-back of Elijah himself could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, when Elijah could come back physically from heaven as one of the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-12).

That is, in the never-fulfilled Revelation 11:3-12, the 2 witnesses could be literally Moses and Elijah. For the 2 men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). And in Revelation 11:4, the 2 "olive trees" refer back to the 2 men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 4:11,14), which was subsequent to the times of Moses and Elijah.

Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as they came down at the transfiguration. Also, the plagues which the 2 witnesses will cause (Revelation 11:6,5) will match plagues which Moses and Elijah caused in Old Testament times (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20; 2 Kings 1:10-14).

Elijah never died, but was taken physically into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b). And Michael the archangel retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated back to mortal life, like, for example, how Lazarus' dead body was resuscitated back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could appear alive at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

The 2 witnesses will prophesy and bring plagues on the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b,3,6) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. That is why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the 2 witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15). The plagues which they will bring (Revelation 11:6) will be part of the tribulation's 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13). They will be taken up to heaven before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:12,15).

They may not be witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8). For the original Greek word (martus: G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people and bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason that there will be 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3) who will bring plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Revelation 11:6,10b) would be because 2 witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Timothy 5:19). At the same time, the 2 "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Revelation 11:7-9). For the same original Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Revelation 17:6).

 

[Eric Parry]

The return of Elijah to Israel is the first event to fulfil end time prophecy. The majority of Jews will NOT accept his ministry which is why the tribulation will begin in Israel to punish the unbelievers.

 

[Jerico Miles]

This still-future, physical coming-back of Elijah himself could occur at the midpoint

when Elijah could come back physically from heaven

the 2 witnesses could be literally Moses and Elijah.

Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18

Michael could have then taken Moses' body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated back to mortal life,

At the same time, the 2 "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Revelation 11:7-9). For the same original Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Revelation 17:6).

Stop speculating so much and read the bible. There's no day of the Lord at the midpoint. There's only two day of the lord, one at the beginning of the tribulation for the rapture and one at the end for the second coming. They don't begin their testimony at the end of the tribulation, so they obviously come at the beginning. Proof positive there's more than one Day of the Lord.

Malachi 4:4-5
4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

 

[ebedmelech]

Elijah will NOT return! Put that down!

 

[Jerico Miles]

Correction. Elijah did not return in AD 70. He comes in the future.

 

[Bible2]

Jerico Miles said in post 4:

There's no day of the Lord at the midpoint.

That's right.

For the future day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Jerico Miles said in post 4:

There's only two day of the lord, one at the beginning of the tribulation for the rapture and one at the end for the second coming.

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Jerico Miles said in post 4:

They don't begin their testimony at the end of the tribulation . . .

That's right (see paragraph 5 of post 2 above).

 

[ebedmelech]

Correction. Elijah did not return in AD 70. He comes in the future.

You can't find that in scripture! People looking literally take the passage of Revelation 11:6 and make it Moses and Elijah, but the fact is that's not what's going on if you let the passage say what it says. Moses and Elijah are symbols just as the passage points us to Joshua and Zerubbabel as symbols in Revelation 11:5.

 

[Jerico Miles]

You can't find that in scripture! People looking literally take the passage of Revelation 11:6 and make it Moses and Elijah, but the fact is that's not what's going on if you let the passage say what it says. Moses and Elijah are symbols just as the passage points us to Joshua and Zerubbabel as symbols in Revelation 11:5.

No I got it from Malachi. The day of the lord is still future. I even posted it on post #4 above.

Malachi 4:4-5
4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

 

[Jerico Miles]

That's right.

For the future day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

How can you think I was right when I was rebuking what you said? If you think I'm right, than you must know you're wrong, right?

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54).

The Marriage is in heaven. See the word heaven in the 1st verse? Marriage is in heaven first, after the marriage then Christ leaves heaven for earth in verse 11.

Revelation 19:1-14
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

[BABerean2]

In one of the "Left Behind" movies, two ancient Jews show up on the scene as the two witnesses during the end times.
Many believe it is Elijah and Moses, however we know Moses died, but Elijah did not.

Is this really what we see in Revelation chapter 11?


Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

If we use scripture to define scripture, who are the two witnesses based on the verse below?

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The Olive trees are used in Romans chapter 11 to show the grafting of the gentiles of the wild olive tree into the cultivated Olive tree of believing Jewish Christians.
Therefore, we have two olive trees grafted together.



Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(The beast makes war with the Saints during the trib and kills many of them.)

Who are the "saints" in the book of Revelation?

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


Yes. The Saints in the book of Revelation are the Bride of Christ.


Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.


Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

For some reason many ignore this verse, because it does not fit their manmade doctrine.

It is easier for them to ignore or explain away a verse from God's Word rather than admit that their doctrine is wrong.



Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.


The dead in Christ are raised first according to 1st Thess. chapter 4 and then those still living are gathered.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.




Forget the nonsense taught by the "Left Behind" series and most televangelists today and look at what is plainly written in God's Word.

It is not complicated.

 

[riverrat]

In one of the "Left Behind" movies, two ancient Jews show up on the scene as the two witnesses during the end times.
Many believe it is Elijah and Moses, however we know Moses died, but Elijah did not.

Is this really what we see in Revelation chapter 11?


Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

If we use scripture to define scripture, who are the two witnesses based on the verse below?

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The Olive trees are used in Romans chapter 11 to show the grafting of the gentiles of the wild olive tree into the cultivated Olive tree of believing Jewish Christians.
Therefore, we have two olive trees grafted together.



Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(The beast makes war with the Saints during the trib and kills many of them.)

Who are the "saints" in the book of Revelation?

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


Yes. The Saints in the book of Revelation are the Bride of Christ.


Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.


Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

For some reason many ignore this verse, because it does not fit their manmade doctrine.

It is easier for them to ignore or explain away a verse from God's Word rather than admit that their doctrine is wrong.



Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.


The dead in Christ are raised first according to 1st Thess. chapter 4 and then those still living are gathered.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.




Forget the nonsense taught by the "Left Behind" series and most televangelists today and look at what is plainly written in God's Word.

It is not complicated.

If you think your multicolored, huge letters make your posts easier to read you are sadly mistaken. I just skip over them just like I skipped over this one.

 

[mxyzpt1k]

Elijah the Tishbite.

Where is that place where he was from? Has there been any archeological findings?

What is his parentage?

Is it important for the Jews to have verifiable information about a man of God in order for them to accept his ministry?

This pertains to the Biblical statements of Elijah coming again before the Messiah.

Archaeology Yes ... Lets attempt to simplify the position ...

LUKE 9:8 And of some, that Elias had appeared; and of others, that one of the old prophets was risen again. (Jesus was mistaken for John)
MARK 15:35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard [it], said, Behold, he calleth Elias. (Jesus's Last Breath Utterances)

Elijah came to bring the "Daily Sacrifice" to Isreal in his day ... so after the crucifixion the Jewish people wanted Christ to bring a "Daily Sacrifice" to them. So when John the Baptist was killed, the Jewish people said Elijah had risen to bless them. Later on, Jesus corrects this claim by stating that Elijah was a curse to the Jewish people, that is no "Daily Sacrifice" would be given, moreover we learn that the "Antichrist" is sent to finish the condemnation of Isreal or the "Abomination of Desolation".

When did Elijah bring the "Daily Sacrifice" to Isreal, and when did David remove the "Daily Sacrifice" from Isreal?

I KINGS 18:4 For it was [so], when Jezebel cut off the prophets of the LORD, that Obadiah took an hundred prophets, and hid them by fifty in a cave, and fed them with bread and water.)
I KINGS 18:19 Now therefore send, [and] gather to me all Israel unto mount Carmel, and the prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty, and the prophets of the groves four hundred, which eat at Jezebel's table.

.......Elijah Brings the "Daily Sacrifice" to Isreal in a Cave.......

I SAMUEL 22:1 David therefore departed thence, and escaped to the cave Adullam: and when his brethren and all his father's house heard [it], they went down thither to him.
I SAMUEL 22:2 And every one [that was] in distress, and every one that [was] in debt, and every one [that was] discontented, gathered themselves unto him; and he became a captain over them: and there were with him about four hundred men.

.......David Removes the "Daily Sacrifice" from Isreal in a Cave.......(the Cave as a reference to Earth)

The events of Elijah happened before David, they did not happen after David, chronologically speaking the events of Elijah can be connected to the language of Genesis 18, in which God burns the "Fifty Generations" that are left blank with Fire, also Elijah calls down fire to burn the "Fifty Generations" sort to speak. ... ... ... The "Daily Sacrifice" represented an allowance God gave Isreal for their sin, because God commanded Abraham to go into Canaan, God gave this allowance. ... ... ... and since God established mankind in the earth in the name of Abraham with creation, God appointed Ephraim to keep his Gospel, the Jewish people no matter how much they sinned against god. This was the "Daily Sacrifice". Now after God removed this "Daily Sacrifice" in the name of King David ... ... The Tribe of Ephraim gained the title of "Head of the Priesthood", which this would later pass on to Aaron. So the Jewish people wanted to know if God would restore the "Daily Sacrifice" after, Aaron recieved the title of "Head of the Priesthood", and Christ answered them no!

Will the Jews during the Tribulation accept Elijah, one of the two witnesses who performs mighty works of God.. if he does not bring genealogical papers with him to prove his parentage? Or if the location of Tish

(being Tishbite: here you see how much my family does not know about it)
​

is still unknown when he comes.

My thought was that since the Jews already accept him as from God, that they will not require any extra Biblical evidence when he comes before the Messiah.

It has been suggested (according to what the Jews are said to believe, or according to what a family member has thought that they believe) that Elijah is like an angel, or otherworldly in some way, as a mysterious explanation that he has no known parentage or as to why there is no known place where he came from.

Being on a par with the other Biblical person described in a similar way. (who was that man? my efforts at googling to find it have not been successful).

Christ placed Ephraim (which is linked to the genetic Jew), into Judah, that is at the crucifixion God took the "Branch from Ephraim" he represented, and placed it into "Judah" ... and thus water came out of from his side when he was pierced. The Jewish people were SEALED spiritually in a way so that they could no longer identify with "Benjamin" the Tribe that is representative of the "Heavenly Salvation Program". Because the Antichrist is given a Life Span of 12,000 Days or about 32 years, because "Joseph and Benjamin" are placed in the accounting of the Tribes which was updated and this update was to last until the end of time, that this sealed the enmity of the Jewish people with the Antichrist. They are in this way forsaken, and they will shy away from identification with the Antichrist, naturally.

The Antichrist does not require genealogical papers, the judgment is spiritual and man is also spiritual. We know what the gospel does teach about the Antichrist when he is representative of "Benjamin and Joseph", that is euthanasia would follow him, or what constitutes "Genetic Dan" would associate themselves with suicide, in their inability to kill the Antichrist. We know also God has in a way pardoned the sin of Ephraim by including them with a Non-Priesthood Tribe, that is Judah. So in short, their Separatist Inheritance* could not be contested to their genetic race, as the gospel affords them, "God Promised the Jewish people a World of their own in the name of Melchisedek" ... not in the name of Moses ... a command that is satisfied when the 3 Days of Darkness begins and they are displaced from Judah, along with the other Separatist Inheritors* and the other tribes, so that Judah alone is judged for 150 days for its ascension for its world, so technically "Elijah comes to Curse", because the Antichrist comes to cast them out, even to cast Judah out ... remember the Antichrist is given no value for many peoples because there is no identification to "Benjamin" for them, only a remnant of the people have put aside their sin to receive the gospel message.

 

[BABerean2]

If you think your multicolored, huge letters make your posts easier to read you are sadly mistaken. I just skip over them just like I skipped over this one.

I am sorry if the comment about the "Left Behind" series hurt your feelings.

 

[Jerico Miles]

In one of the "Left Behind" movies, two ancient Jews show up on the scene as the two witnesses during the end times.
Many believe it is Elijah and Moses, however we know Moses died, but Elijah did not.

Is this really what we see in Revelation chapter 11?


Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

If we use scripture to define scripture, who are the two witnesses based on the verse below?

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The Olive trees are used in Romans chapter 11 to show the grafting of the gentiles of the wild olive tree into the cultivated Olive tree of believing Jewish Christians.
Therefore, we have two olive trees grafted together.



Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(The beast makes war with the Saints during the trib and kills many of them.)

Who are the "saints" in the book of Revelation?

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


Yes. The Saints in the book of Revelation are the Bride of Christ.


Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.


Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

For some reason many ignore this verse, because it does not fit their manmade doctrine.

It is easier for them to ignore or explain away a verse from God's Word rather than admit that their doctrine is wrong.



Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.


The dead in Christ are raised first according to 1st Thess. chapter 4 and then those still living are gathered.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.




Forget the nonsense taught by the "Left Behind" series and most televangelists today and look at what is plainly written in God's Word.

It is not complicated./COLOR]

How could you forget to post your favorite youtube video of your favorite youtube actor about your favorite end time topic?

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0syhGE3c3RI

 

[BABerean2]

How could you forget to post your favorite youtube video of your favorite youtube actor about your favorite end time topic?

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0syhGE3c3RI

Even actor Kirk Cameron finally figured out that the pretrib doctrine was false.

Take a look at one of his newest movies in the link below.


Left Behind or Led Astray? Examining the Origins of the Secret Pre-Tribulation Rapture


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[AlasBabylon]

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I would like to know posters' opinions on the meaning of Elijah
turning the hearts of the fathers to the children and vice versa.

I think the phrase "great and terrible" denotes the spirit of Elijah
coming twice... before the first and second coming of Christ.


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[Bible2]

Jerico Miles said in post 10:

The Marriage is in heaven.

That's right, but only in the sense of the 1st heaven (the sky). For the 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated by Jesus' at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

 

[Bible2]

Jerico Miles said in post 10:

The Marriage is in heaven.

Do you mean that the rapture will take believers into the 3rd heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b)? If so, note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

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There are 3 heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2b). The 1st heaven is the sky, the atmosphere, in which the birds fly (Genesis 1:20b). The 2nd heaven is outer space, where the sun, moon, and stars reside (Deuteronomy 4:19). Where God resides is the 3rd heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b, Revelation 4:1-2), and so it is beyond outer space, in the sense of it being in a higher (i.e. a 4th) spatial dimension. And it is a physical place, for Jesus ascended there in his physical resurrection body (Acts 1:9-11, Luke 24:39). And Paul said that he could have visited there in his physical body (2 Corinthians 12:2). Also, Elijah and Enoch were taken up there in their physical bodies (2 Kings 2:11, Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5). And the 2 witnesses will be taken up there in their physical bodies (Revelation 11:11-12).

In the 3rd heaven, there is currently a literal city 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), which is called New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22), the Jerusalem which is above (Galatians 4:26), and the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3). In the future, God will create a new earth (a new surface of the earth) and a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new atmosphere for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will come down in New Jerusalem from the 3rd heaven to the new earth to live with people on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-3, Revelation 3:12b). It is New Jerusalem which has the literal pearly gates and streets of gold (Revelation 21:21) which people ascribe to heaven. So what people think of as heaven, in the sense of living in bliss with God, will eventually be on the new earth.

Currently, the 3rd heaven is where paradise is (2 Corinthians 12:2,4). And paradise is where believers go when they die (Luke 23:43,46). So believers go to the 3rd heaven when they die. Also, paradise is where the literal tree of life is (Revelation 2:7). And the tree of life is in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:2). So when people go to paradise, they go to New Jerusalem.

The earth's 3rd heaven could be high above the north pole (cf. the connection between heaven and the north in Isaiah 14:13, KJV). Regarding what we today call "the northern lights", even though they can been explained by physics, they could still point to the location of the glory of the earth's 3rd heaven. And Psalm 48:2's reference to the north could refer to the location of New Jerusalem in heaven.

Jerico Miles said in post 10:

Revelation 19:1-14
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

The people in the church who will be dwelling in the 3rd heaven at the end-of-the-tribulation time of Revelation 19:1 will be those who have died (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8, Revelation 6:9-11) and those who are part of the 144,000 (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus; Revelation 12:5b).

 

[Bible2]

BABerean2 said in post 11:

Leave the "Left Behind Movies" behind...

Indeed.

For nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture.

Is such a mistaken idea usually based on Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, people should realize that these passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed by God, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath of God (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).