elephants unable to support own weight according to YEC 'scientist'

SLP · Sep 1, 2010

juvenissun said:
Ok. The triangular bone (I call it shoulder bone), is that a part of the body or a part of the leg?

It is called the scapula, part of the shoulder girdle, which is/are the bone(s) to which the upper forelimb bone articulates. Feel your own (or someone else's if you are not flexible enough) - note how it moves all over the place.

We dissect cats in our labs, and once you cut through the trapezius and some of the other superficial muscles, you mobilize the entire shoulder - pick it right up, rotate it, etc. - no bony connection at all.

Yet cats seem to walk around and jump just fine.

Don't you think?

LifeToTheFullest! · Sep 1, 2010

Juvi, what's your question? Are you really this daft?

BananaSlug · Sep 1, 2010

Maybe he should have posted a picture of a complete skeleton rather than one with the clavicle and sternum removed.

SLP · Sep 1, 2010

BananaSlug said:
Maybe he should have posted a picture of a complete skeleton rather than one with the clavicle and sternum removed.

There is no clavicle there - what you are seeing are the first two ribs. Elephants lack clavicles. In fact, there are entire groups of large quadrupedal mammals that lack them - horses, deer, buffalo, bears, etc.

Menton simply really stepped in it in his haste to denigrate and explain away the relevance of Tiktaalik. And the street YEC is too 'loyal' to admit that he is just plain wrong.

juvenissun · Sep 1, 2010

SLP said:
It is called the scapula, part of the shoulder girdle, which is/are the bone(s) to which the upper forelimb bone articulates. Feel your own (or someone else's if you are not flexible enough) - note how it moves all over the place.

We dissect cats in our labs, and once you cut through the trapezius and some of the other superficial muscles, you mobilize the entire shoulder - pick it right up, rotate it, etc. - no bony connection at all.

Yet cats seem to walk around and jump just fine.

Don't you think?

I understand what you said. But you did not answer my question: Is the scapula part of the body or part of the leg?

If it is part of the body, then you don't have an argument. How does the scapula connected to other bones of the body is not part of the question.

As naive as I am, I do feel my shoulder bone belongs to my body rather than being a part of my arm. So, my arm is attached to my body by a bone link, not a muscle link.

LifeToTheFullest! · Sep 1, 2010

juvenissun said:
I understand what you said. But you did not answer my question: Is the scapula part of the body or part of the leg?

If it is part of the body, then you don't have an argument. How does the scapula connected to other bones of the body is not part of the question.

As naive as I am, I do feel my shoulder bone belongs to my body rather than being a part of my arm. So, my arm is attached to my body by a bone link, not a muscle link.

You're making unnecessary arbitrary distinctions. What do you think holds the scapula to the thorax?

rockaction · Sep 1, 2010

juvenissun said:
I understand what you said. But you did not answer my question: Is the scapula part of the body or part of the leg?

If it is part of the body, then you don't have an argument. How does the scapula connected to other bones of the body is not part of the question.

As naive as I am, I do feel my shoulder bone belongs to my body rather than being a part of my arm. So, my arm is attached to my body by a bone link, not a muscle link.

Last time I checked, the "arm" is part of the "body". If you're complaining about the scaupla not articulating directly with the trunk in elephants, I don't understand what point you could be making. In humans, the joint between the scapula and the clavicle attaches it to the trunk, but it is still considered part of the appendicular skeleton.

juvenissun · Sep 1, 2010

SLP said:
There is no clavicle there - what you are seeing are the first two ribs. Elephants lack clavicles. In fact, there are entire groups of large quadrupedal mammals that lack them - horses, deer, buffalo, bears, etc.

Menton simply really stepped in it in his haste to denigrate and explain away the relevance of Tiktaalik. And the street YEC is too 'loyal' to admit that he is just plain wrong.

OK, I re-read your OP. And I see what you are talking about now.

Quote:

and in another article on the same issue:

"...the bones for Panderichthys, Tiktaalik and the coelacanth are imbedded in the muscle, and are not attached to the axial skeleton, which you would find in a reptile or amphibian (and which would be necessary for weight-bearing appendages). "

It seems to me that Tiktaalik does not have an equivalent scapula. It does not have an equivalent clavicle either. It does seem to be a problem if this thing was trying to push up by its "foreleg".

The foreleg of elephant is not directly attached to the body, but it attached to the body through a scapula.

Hey, folks. Don't forget I knew zero about anatomy just one day ago. How was my progress?

LifeToTheFullest! · Sep 1, 2010

juvenissun said:
OK, I re-read your OP. And I see what you are talking about now.

Quote:

It seems to me that Tiktaalik does not have an equivalent scapula. It does not have an equivalent clavicle either. It does seem to be a problem if this thing was trying to push up by its "foreleg".

The foreleg of elephant is not directly attached to the body, but it attached to the body through a scapula.

Hey, folks. Don't forget I knew zero about anatomy just one day ago. How was my progress?

Nope, not a problem.

Remember, sometimes existing anatomical structures are re-appropriated to adapt to changing condtions over time.

SLP · Sep 1, 2010

juvenissun said:
I understand what you said. But you did not answer my question: Is the scapula part of the body or part of the leg?

Um..

OK, wow...

Yes, I did answer your question - I answered it directly:

"part of the shoulder girdle, which is/are the bone(s) to which the upper forelimb bone articulates."

I don't know how else to answer that question. It is not part of the body OR the limb, it is the bone that articulates with the upper limb bone and IN SOME CASES articulates with the body. I am having a hard time understanding how a person with your claimed background:

Biography Geologist.

A YEC but work with OE models. No contradiction at all.

Fundamentalist.
Interests build conceptual models
Occupation Research and teaching

is having such a hard time with this - is your difficulty real or are you just out to antagonize? We're only talking about one bone here...

If it is part of the body, then you don't have an argument.

It is not part of the body - if by part of the body you mean part of the axial skeleton. Considering how this is going, I see a 'but if it is not part of the body, how do we have one?' coming...

How does the scapula connected to other bones of the body is not part of the question.

Then you don't really know what questions to ask.

As naive as I am, I do feel my shoulder bone belongs to my body rather than being a part of my arm. So, my arm is attached to my body by a bone link, not a muscle link.

YOURS is, yes. I never said otherwise, which means you are just really having a hard time here (on purpose?). Your scapula articulates with both the humerus (sort of) and the clavicle, the clavicle articulates with the sternum.
Elephants, deer, rhinos, bison, bears, etc. HAVE NO CLAVICLE, thus, there is NO bony attachments between their forelimbs and their body.

My point was that even in us, when we DO have a clavicle, and a clavicle that DOES attach to the body, our scapula can move all over the place - yet we can support our weight just fine.

Menton stepped in it.

SLP · Sep 1, 2010

juvenissun said:
It seems to me that Tiktaalik does not have an equivalent scapula. It does not have an equivalent clavicle either. It does seem to be a problem if this thing was trying to push up by its "foreleg".

Oh come on...

I thought you just said you re-read the OP?

Did you not see the things I was emphasizing REPEATEDLY?

The foreleg of elephant is not directly attached to the body, but it attached to the body through a scapula.

No, it is not....

The ONLY attachmen ts between the elephant's forelimb and its body is muscular.

Hey, folks. Don't forget I knew zero about anatomy just one day ago. How was my progress?

So-so. But it would have helped had you boned up on anatomy BEFORE trying to help out Menton.

juvenissun · Sep 1, 2010

SLP said:
Oh come on...

I thought you just said you re-read the OP?

Did you not see the things I was emphasizing REPEATEDLY?

No, it is not....

The ONLY attachmen ts between the elephant's forelimb and its body is muscular.

So-so. But it would have helped had you boned up on anatomy BEFORE trying to help out Menton.

Here is the problem I start to repeat. You definitely think the scapula is part of the forelimb (of an elephant). I do not agree. Sure you may know more anatomy than I do. But in order to convince me (and win the argument), you need to show me which system the scapula is classified to. I bet it is not part of the limb system.

The forelimb of an elephant supports its body through the scapula. And the scapula is a bone and is a part of its body. It does not matter how does the scapula connect to the body.

pgp_protector · Sep 1, 2010

juvenissun said:
Here is the problem I start to repeat. You definitely think the scapula is part of the forelimb (of an elephant). I do not agree. Sure you may know more anatomy than I do. But in order to convince me (and win the argument), you need to show me which system the scapula is classified to. I bet it is not part of the limb system.

The forelimb of an elephant supports its body through the scapula. And the scapula is a bone and is a part of its body. It does not matter how does the scapula connect to the body.

Appendicular skeleton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WiKi said:
The word appendicular is the adjective of the noun appendage, which itself means a part that is joined to something larger

rockaction · Sep 1, 2010

juvenissun said:
Here is the problem I start to repeat. You definitely think the scapula is part of the forelimb (of an elephant). I do not agree. Sure you may know more anatomy than I do. But in order to convince me (and win the argument), you need to show me which system the scapula is classified to. I bet it is not part of the limb system.

The forelimb of an elephant supports its body through the scapula. And the scapula is a bone and is a part of its body. It does not matter how does the scapula connect to the body.

The scapula is part of the pectoral girdle, which is part of the appendicular skeleton. The term "body" that you are using is likely the "trunk". Please use that word, because it is more descriptive.

Elephant anatomy

mpok1519 · Sep 1, 2010

Poe fo sho.

Magic powers aren't holding the elephant up dude. Be real; skeletal and muscle groups and structures aid in an even distribution of weight. Also, thir feet are heavily padded. It's not magic; it's reality.

Why i can't put this guy on ignore baffles me....oh wait it's great entertainment!

Agonaces of Susa said:
An elephant supports it's own weight due to Almighty God's divine Providence.

Our blessed LORD allows elephants to walk via divine intervention and miracleworks.

"Granted, then, that certain transformations do happen, it is essential that we should regard them in the philosophic manner of fairy tales, not in the unphilosophic manner of science and the 'Laws of Nature.' When we are asked why eggs turn into birds or fruits fall in autumn, we must answer exactly as the fairy godmother would answer if Cinderella asked her why mice turned into horses or her clothes fell from her at twelve o'clock. We must answer that it is MAGIC. It is not a 'law,' for we do not understand it's general formula." -- G. K. Chesterton, philosopher, Orthodoxy, Chapter IV: The Ethics of Elfland, 1909

"All the terms used in the science books, 'law,' 'necessity,' 'order,' 'tendency,' and so on, are really unintellectual .... The only words that ever satisfied me as describing Nature are the terms used in the fairy books, 'charm,' 'spell,' 'enchantment.' They express the arbitrariness of the fact and its mystery. A tree grows fruit because it is a MAGIC tree. Water runs downhill because it is bewitched. The sun shines because it is bewitched." -- G.K. Chesterton, philosopher, Orthodoxy, Chapter IV: The Ethics of Elfland, 1909

juvenissun · Sep 1, 2010

rockaction said:
The scapula is part of the pectoral girdle, which is part of the appendicular skeleton. The term "body" that you are using is likely the "trunk". Please use that word, because it is more descriptive.

Elephant anatomy

In any case, the arm and leg do NOT directly bear the wt of the body. They go directly though bone links, not muscle links.

Thanks to the figure of pgp_ .

rockaction · Sep 1, 2010

juvenissun said:
In any case, the arm and leg do NOT directly bear the wt of the body. They go directly though bone links, not muscle links.

Thanks to the figure of pgp_ .

Anatomy is hard, I'll give you that. But if you seriously believe that magic holds up elephants, misunderstanding anatomy is the least of your concerns.

tanzanos · Sep 2, 2010

juvenissun said:
In any case, the arm and leg do NOT directly bear the wt of the body. They go directly though bone links, not muscle links.

Thanks to the figure of pgp_ .

POE for sure!

SLP · Sep 2, 2010

juvenissun said:
Here is the problem I start to repeat. You definitely think the scapula is part of the forelimb (of an elephant).

Here is the problem that is being repeated here - you don't seem to read or understand what I write. I in fact did NOT say that the scapula is part fo the forelimb, I said it is part of the pectoral girdle:

"It is called the scapula, part of the shoulder girdle, which is/are the bone(s) to which the upper forelimb bone articulates."

I do not agree.

Frankly, I don't care if you agree or not, especially in light of that fact that you are misrepresenting what I wrote.. It is what it is, and you not agreeing is neither here nor there. If I disagree that the sky is blue, do I really have a point?

Sure you may know more anatomy than I do. But in order to convince me (and win the argument), you need to show me which system the scapula is classified to. I bet it is not part of the limb system.

I'm not sure why you are trying to sidetrack the discussion like this (to save face? to protect a fellow YEC?) - even if you had a point about what the scapula is, it is totally IRRELEVANT to the point in the OP.

The forelimb of an elephant supports its body through the scapula. And the scapula is a bone and is a part of its body. It does not matter how does the scapula connect to the body.

Just like I predicted (sort of ):

"Considering how this is going, I see a 'but if it is not part of the body, how do we have one?' coming..."

Of course, it DOES MATTER when the crux of the YEC's argument that the forelimb MUST ATTACH DIRECTLY, BONE-TO-BONE, TO THE REST OF THE BODY in order for a quadruped to support its weight.

My goodness....

SLP · Sep 2, 2010

juvenissun said:
In any case, the arm and leg do NOT directly bear the wt of the body. They go directly though bone links, not muscle links.

Thanks to the figure of pgp_ .

Except when there is no bone-to-bone attachment, such as in the forelimbs of elephants, bears, cats, deer, elk, bison, etc.

Writing the same false thing over and over does not make you correct.

Elephants are considered anisodactyls:

An`i`so`dac´ty`la

n. pl.

1.

(Zool.) A group of herbivorous mammals characterized by having the hoofs in a single series around the foot, as the elephant, rhinoceros, etc

And in anisodactyls:

The clavicle runs from the far end of the scapular to the sternum in most mammals, though in the Monotremata it meets the interclavicle instead. Monotremes also have a pair of bones called the Epicoracoid or Precoracoid bones. In some mammals such as the Anisodactyla, Perissodactyla, Mysticeti and Odontoceti (Horses, Pigs, Deer, Buffaloes, etc. and Whales) the clavicle is absent.

elephants unable to support own weight according to YEC 'scientist'

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