Electricity and mind...

[Eudaimonist]

Speaking of the legos, again. There are plenty of electrons in those legos. Those electrons might not flow through metal, but they move as the legos move. So why not aware lego creatures?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[sandwiches]

It seems odd to me that we could potentially create machine awareness from wood, or steel, or another mechanical computer. To me the meduim seems importatnt, rather than just the mechanism. Although i don't have convincing reasons, it's more of a gut feeling. Theres something about lightning, for instance, that seems closer to home than a handful of sand.

Like you said, it's just a gut feeling. A machine is a machine is a machine. In fact, we could potentially (although unrealistically) simulate a consciousness by simply writing code on a blackboard.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Like you said, it's just a gut feeling. A machine is a machine is a machine. In fact, we could potentially (although unrealistically) simulate a consciousness by simply writing code on a blackboard.

Explain plz.

 

[badtim]

Like you said, it's just a gut feeling. A machine is a machine is a machine. In fact, we could potentially (although unrealistically) simulate a consciousness by simply writing code on a blackboard.

sure you could simulate highly limited aspects. very slowly. very very very slowly. unfortunately that would require an actual consciousness to do, so in reality all you're doing is having one mind talk about itself.

but in terms of the lego thing, as long as it's a universal turing machine, it can model any other universal turing machine. a purely mechanical one would be very slow and inefficient, compared to semiconductor or photonic tech though, much less than the quantum computers in development right now.

 

[jonmichael818]

The thing to consider when speaking of mechanical devices such as the Lego machine or the difference engines that Babbage designed, is that in order for them to operate they need a power source. While it may be through the cranking of a handle, you have to ask what is cranking the handle, and what is the power source of what is cranking the handle?

So with any computing device there is the structure or construct which may have electrons existing within that construct (because of the atoms bonding to eachother to make up the construct), but it needs an additional power source to run the construct.

In the brain there are electrical signals that flow through to intiate various processes and there are chemical ones as well. But even the chemical processes are driven by electrical processes such as the chemicals charge. Of course there are the nuclear aspects as well (protons,neutrons), but without the electrical aspect, it seems that a computational device or conscious entity may not be able to exist.

By the way I am not one of those electrical universe guys.

In the following TED video, Sebastian Seung uses the metaphor of the structure of our neural net as a river bed and the electricity flowing through our neural net as the water flowing through the river bed. Which could even be referred to as the stream of consciousness.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0[/youtube]

 

[sandwiches]

The thing to consider when speaking of mechanical devices such as the Lego machine or the difference engines that Babbage designed, is that in order for them to operate they need a power source. While it may be through the cranking of a handle, you have to ask what is cranking the handle, and what is the power source of what is cranking the handle?

So with any computing device there is the structure or construct which may have electrons existing within that construct (because of the atoms bonding to eachother to make up the construct), but it needs an additional power source to run the construct.

In the brain there are electrical signals that flow through to intiate various processes and there are chemical ones as well. But even the chemical processes are driven by electrical processes such as the chemicals charge. Of course there are the nuclear aspects as well (protons,neutrons), but without the electrical aspect, it seems that a computational device or conscious entity may not be able to exist.

By the way I am not one of those electrical universe guys.

In the following TED video, Sebastian Seung uses the metaphor of the structure of our neural net as a river bed and the electricity flowing through our neural net as the water flowing through the river bed. Which could even be referred to as the stream of consciousness.

To me, it seems a bit silly to put so much importance on electrical processes only when electrons themselves are governed by much more fundamental particles and forces, not to mention, as you suggested that there are nucleons that are just as important in the processes of consciousness.

 

[jonmichael818]

To me, it seems a bit silly to put so much importance on electrical processes only when electrons themselves are governed by much more fundamental particles and forces, not to mention, as you suggested that there are nucleons that are just as important in the processes of consciousness.

Agreed.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Speaking of the legos, again. There are plenty of electrons in those legos. Those electrons might not flow through metal, but they move as the legos move. So why not aware lego creatures?


eudaimonia,

Mark

I have no proof either way, it just seems intuitive to me that mind is connected to electricity. Of courese its possible for all we know that a lego computer powered by windmills could be aware. But then again its possible that sand on the beach could be aware. Yet as people say, we have reason to be lieve that e.g. dogs are aware as they display awareness, where as sand on a beach does not. Thats one reason why it is argued that nervous systems are needed for sentience (no nervous system, no display). But why not carry on and say "no electricity, no functional nervous system, therefore electricity is needed for awareness"?

I have no proof but it seems to me that the medium may as well be important. As we are in ignorance whether it actually is or not, I don't claim to know this. Also, it seems like if we say the medium matters we have no way of testing this as a working hypothesis. But science has to start somewhere, unless it is accepted that science either way impossible. Actually I imagine that some bright philosopher might actually prove that science of consciousness is impossible, perhaps because it is noumenal even to the first person owner or something like that.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I have no proof but it seems to me that the medium may as well be important. As we are in ignorance whether it actually is or not, I don't claim to know this. Also, it seems like if we say the medium matters we have no way of testing this as a working hypothesis. But science has to start somewhere, unless it is accepted that science either way impossible. Actually I imagine that some bright philosopher might actually prove that science of consciousness is impossible, perhaps because it is noumenal even to the first person owner or something like that.

For some reason, this reminds me of mad pain and Martian pain. A lot of philosophy runs on the assumption that you could build a conscious mind out of parts (like the hydraulics of Martian minds) other than that in which we currently see 'minds' residing.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Art, will get back to you on that soon.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Gotta read this.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

For some reason, this reminds me of mad pain and Martian pain. A lot of philosophy runs on the assumption that you could build a conscious mind out of parts (like the hydraulics of Martian minds) other than that in which we currently see 'minds' residing.

I have read the Wiki on mad and martian pain and it seems completely bonkers to me. But you are right, I think that a martian might feel pain even if it's "brain" is completely different in its composition and mechanics to ours.