Electricity and mind...

[GrowingSmaller]

Is is a coincidence that the best artificial intelligence we have is computer (electrical) based? Maybe it is just the most convenient medium we have at hand.

Does anyone believe that there is a necessary relation between electricity and consciousness, such than "no electricity => no consciousness" is true?

 

[KCfromNC]

It's probably just a technological limitation. What you can do with one Turing machine you can do with any other (stretching the formal proof just a bit but I think it works for this case). We've gotten really good at using semiconductors to implement them, but it could be that in the future other techs surpass them.

Sure, if you stretch electrical enough to include both brain chemistry and computers, then most everything can be thought to be electrical. But then you're just saying you need physics to work as a necessary step for consciousness. That's not exactly controversial - you need physics as a necessary condition for anything to exist. Not necessarily our physics, but at least some variety of them.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

ty.

So we can have alternative computers without technology dependent on electricity (e.g. Charles Babbage made a purely mechanical one IIRC but not sure), but I am still not sure if we can have artificial or machine consciousness ("AC" or "MC") without flowing electricity.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Does anyone believe that there is a necessary relation between electricity and consciousness, such than "no electricity => no consciousness" is true?

Not particularly. At least, I can't see any reason why that should have to be the case.

My sense of it is that it is more important what whatever-it-is is doing, rather than what sort of subatomic particle it is.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Tielec]

On the surface the statement rings true to me, but that's without going into an depth to look into it. Perhaps it might be reasonable to assume that relating with reality in a way that we humans are accustomed requires electricity - but that might not be the only way to relate to reality. It stands to reason that we would construct machines that work in the manner we do because they would be more user-friendly.

 

[jonmichael818]

Is is a coincidence that the best artificial intelligence we have is computer (electrical) based? Maybe it is just the most convenient medium we have at hand.

Does anyone believe that there is a necessary relation between electricity and consciousness, such than "no electricity => no consciousness" is true?

Well I am not really sure, it sounds interesting though.
If you have ever watched one of those ghost hunter shows, they always use "EMF" detectors because they say the ghosts give off and even absorb electromagnetic energy. They say that its trapped energy and consciousness surviving the body.

Course that is pure speculation.

On a more serious note, I am greatly interested in quantum computing and from a biological perspective I am even more interested in "Biocomputing."

Many examples of simple biocomputers have been designed, but the capabilities of these biocomputers are still largely premature in comparison to commercially available non-bio computers. However, there is definitely great potential in the capabilities that biocomputers may one day acquire. Evidence of the true potential of the computing capabilities of biocomputers exists in the most powerful, complex computational machine known to currently exist: the biocomputer that is the human brain. Certainly, there is plenty of room to improve in the realm of biocomputer computational ability; one may reasonably expect the science of biocomputers to advance greatly in the years to come.-Wikipedia/Biocomputers

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Well I am not really sure, it sounds interesting though.

It seems natural to me. When I look at it it seems to be alive, perhaps even aware. Pure awareness. Look at this for an example, it's obviously different from an inert stone on the ground....


YouTube - giant electrical spark


Compare with a brain scan:

YouTube - Brain Scan

If you have ever watched one of those ghost hunter shows, they always use "EMF" detectors because they say the ghosts give off and even absorb electromagnetic energy. They say that its trapped energy and consciousness surviving the body.

Speculation, and afaik they haven't come up with enough evidence to convince the skeptic.

Course that is pure speculation.

If you can call "How do we make money with a parapsychology degree?" pure speculation.

On a more serious note, I am greatly interested in quantum computing and from a biological perspective I am even more interested in "Biocomputing."

Yup they are certainly interesting. AFAIK quantum computers will have to be deep frozen or cooled in order to work. BTW have you seens the robots with rats brains? IIRC biochips are something else but we're 'getting there', even if some people might not regard it as progress.

YouTube - Robot with a biological brain

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Not particularly. At least, I can't see any reason why that should have to be the case.

My sense of it is that it is more important what whatever-it-is is doing, rather than what sort of subatomic particle it is.


eudaimonia,

Mark

It seems odd to me that we could potentially create machine awareness from wood, or steel, or another mechanical computer. To me the meduim seems importatnt, rather than just the mechanism. Although i don't have convincing reasons, it's more of a gut feeling. Theres something about lightning, for instance, that seems closer to home than a handful of sand.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

On the surface the statement rings true to me, but that's without going into an depth to look into it. Perhaps it might be reasonable to assume that relating with reality in a way that we humans are accustomed requires electricity - but that might not be the only way to relate to reality. It stands to reason that we would construct machines that work in the manner we do because they would be more user-friendly.

I have heard New Agers go on about wave function collapse and awareness. Most skeptics will say it's just woo. What do you think? I probably don't know enough about it but people say its not a mind but a mere recording that causes collapse. Still electricity intrigues me deeply.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Is is a coincidence that the best artificial intelligence we have is computer (electrical) based? Maybe it is just the most convenient medium we have at hand.

Does anyone believe that there is a necessary relation between electricity and consciousness, such than "no electricity => no consciousness" is true?

The 'necessary relation' you speak of sounds a lot like Searle's 'causal power' talk. Perhaps that explains the traditional approach to AI: it is assumed that some kind of electricity is needed, as opposed to something else. That said, without entirely abandoning electricity, there is research going on into photonic computing.

 

[pgp_protector]

Computers can be built that run without electricity, but not at the size we're using now.
The very core of a computer is just logic circuits, millions on top of millions packed into a single chip.

Yes these could be built even with lego, but you're going to need the room of a small planet to build an equivalent system, so while yes it can be done, it's not practical.

a logic gate will perform the same function if you build it via a PNP/NPN junction or Lego, it's just that the PNP/NPN junction will be faster & smaller.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLPVCJjTNgk

 

[Eudaimonist]

It seems odd to me that we could potentially create machine awareness from wood, or steel, or another mechanical computer.

Why don't you find it odd that an aware being could be made of meat?

A computer intelligence might find that very counterintuitive.

Besides, there is much more going on in neural functioning than electrical currents. Chemicals play a big role in a neuron's functioning, especially in the synapses.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

I have heard New Agers go on about wave function collapse and awareness. Most skeptics will say it's just woo. What do you think?

Woo woo. Times two.

I find that New Agers are in love with quantum mechanics, but tend to misunderstand it.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Why don't you find it odd that an aware being could be made of meat?

AFAIK We only have awareness of muscle states insofar as they are electrically conveyed to the brain. Now, whilsy it might be relevant to ask "Why electricity?" it sees like it is an essential part of our awareness.

A computer intelligence might find that very counterintuitive.

Because muscles don't compute.

Besides, there is much more going on in neural functioning than electrical currents. Chemicals play a big role in a neuron's functioning, especially in the synapses.

True. I am only asking for input and grateful for it. So you think that lego can see? i.e it's not the medium but the operations that count?

 

[pgp_protector]

...snip...

True. I am only asking for input and grateful for it. So you think that lego can see? i.e it's not the medium but the operations that count?

Lego can see as well as the Brain can see.
I.E. neither can without some form on Input.
The "Brain" only processes what signals it gets from the photo receptors from the Eyes. (Photon -> chemicals -> electrical impulse -> processing)

So if you could devise a mechanical device to respond to photons that you could then process the data into mechanical energy, then with enough time & skill Lego might be able to process Light information. Though speed & size would still loose out to a CCD & microchip.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Because muscles don't compute.

By "meat", I meant anything that aware computers would see as squishy, slimy cellular matter.

To a computer intelligence, all of us, brain and muscle, except perhaps for the bones, is meat. How can meat be aware, they might ask themselves in puzzlement. It's just meat. How odd that meat might think.

So you think that lego can see? i.e it's not the medium but the operations that count?

Do you think that electrons can see?

I believe that aware entities can see. An aware entity is an enormously complex system. Perhaps a system, which at a highly reductionistic level is just a collection of legos, could see.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[GrowingSmaller]

By "meat", I meant anything that aware computers would see as squishy, slimy cellular matter.

To a computer intelligence, all of us, brain and muscle, except perhaps for the bones, is meat. How can meat be aware, they might ask themselves in puzzlement. It's just meat. How odd that meat might think.

Ok got ya.

Do you think that electrons can see?

I am not sure. I don't have too much evidence they do, and don't have too evidence they don't. Maybe we ought to use a "duck test"?

I

believe that aware entities can see. An aware entity is an enormously complex system.

From "All things we beliive to be aware are like us, and we are enormously complex systems" right. A basic argument from analogy, but not foolproof.

Perhaps a system, which at a highly reductionistic level is just a collection of legos, could see.

What about the "duck test"? Can it be applied to these bots at robocup which BTW are not remote controlled? To me they look like they can see, act like they can see...

YouTube - CMDragons RoboCup 2008 SSL Highlights

Admittedly they might have "blindsight", but in the absence of duck test style reasoning, what are we to go on to form our opinions?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Lego can see as well as the Brain can see.
I.E. neither can without some form on Input.
The "Brain" only processes what signals it gets from the photo receptors from the Eyes. (Photon -> chemicals -> electrical impulse -> processing)

So no processing, no consciousness? This is getting deep water for me, as I am not sure of an absolute difference between light falling on a retina and a pebble falling into a pond.

So if you could devise a mechanical device to respond to photons that you could then process the data into mechanical energy, then with enough time & skill Lego might be able to process Light information. Though speed & size would still loose out to a CCD & microchip.

So what's your opinion of Robocup small sized league (ssl). They utilize CCD I imagine, and I think we might as well say they can see.

YouTube - CMDragons RoboCup 2007 SSL Champion

 

[KCfromNC]

It seems odd to me that we could potentially create machine awareness from wood, or steel, or another mechanical computer. To me the meduim seems importatnt, rather than just the mechanism. Although i don't have convincing reasons, it's more of a gut feeling. Theres something about lightning, for instance, that seems closer to home than a handful of sand.

Which is closer to modern silicon-based semiconductors again? I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make here.

 

[KCfromNC]

ty.

So we can have alternative computers without technology dependent on electricity (e.g. Charles Babbage made a purely mechanical one IIRC but not sure), but I am still not sure if we can have artificial or machine consciousness ("AC" or "MC") without flowing electricity.

At this point we don't have it at all, regardless of medium. Even assuming electricity will get you there is a (potentially justified) leap of faith.

Is this question related to electric universe nonsense, by any chance?