Election

[Biblocality]

God's way is according to?
​

In my experience and with the Word, I have found that a calvinist always asks themselves, why they chose God (heady rationalization is sought after)? ​

Their answer is, they think they were not premade for hell, but pre-made for heaven. This is an inescapable pride as long as they continue to believe that, which separates them from God.

To wit, the answer of their mistaken assumption is that man is made in God's image (before and after the fall), having a right to the cross in which though the man is fallen and he can not choose the cross by his fallen nature, he is still made in God's image with a right to come to the cross which is to the glory of God, since grace precedeth the fall. Grace comes at in leading one to the cross by being made in God's image, and grace enters again at new birth upon the authentic repentant approach and choice according to John 3.16,18, so that God can give His life, as typified by the tree of life.

Man is created with one nature: neither God's nature, since the man has not yet eaten of the tree of life, nor the fallen nature, since the man had not yet fallen. Man being created in the image of God does not mean man has God's nature, that is God's life, but rather than the man, made spirit, soul and body has a free-will just like God's as well as all other other components of his being accurately reflect what it means to be made in the image of God which is perfect and to the glory of God. God can't sin, but man can fall, though not eternally, if he is born again for new birth is an eternal gift.

So you see the free-will of man can be viewed from two perspectives. One from being made in the image of God, which Adam had, and Abel had, who gave right offering (Cain did not give right offering, though he was still made in God's image); the other, viewed from the perspective of the flesh, that is the will of the flesh of the sin nature that can never come to the cross. Many Bible verses speak of this latter aspect that nothing of the man (of the flesh) can choose God.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

Calvinists get no respect for their offering of thinking they were pre-made for salvation. The image of God is never diminished in the man, for man is made perfect.

God longs to see the man make the choice for Him, for these are the ones He wants to be with, not the tares in the outward appearance of the kingdom of heaven. O there is so many of them.

 

[Biblocality]

None responded to this post.

 

[Catholic Dude]

Yes good post!
It goes right along with my old thread which they ignored as well:
How does a Calvinist Know they are Elect
http://www.christianforums.com/t2098588-how-does-a-calvinist-know-they-are-elect.html

 

[ThankyouJesus]

i always wondered ~ son of man ~ man of god ~ son of God? not to get off your topic ~ because it kinda goes with it

 

[Benedicta00]

God's way is according to?
​

In my experience and with the Word, I have found that a calvinist always asks themselves, why they chose God (heady rationalization is sought after)? ​

Their answer is, they think they were not premade for hell, but pre-made for heaven. This is an inescapable pride as long as they continue to believe that, which separates them from God.

To wit, the answer of their mistaken assumption is that man is made in God's image (before and after the fall), having a right to the cross in which though the man is fallen and he can not choose the cross by his fallen nature, he is still made in God's image with a right to come to the cross which is to the glory of God, since grace precedeth the fall. Grace comes at in leading one to the cross by being made in God's image, and grace enters again at new birth upon the authentic repentant approach and choice according to John 3.16,18, so that God can give His life, as typified by the tree of life.

Man is created with one nature: neither God's nature, since the man has not yet eaten of the tree of life, nor the fallen nature, since the man had not yet fallen. Man being created in the image of God does not mean man has God's nature, that is God's life, but rather than the man, made spirit, soul and body has a free-will just like God's as well as all other other components of his being accurately reflect what it means to be made in the image of God which is perfect and to the glory of God. God can't sin, but man can fall, though not eternally, if he is born again for new birth is an eternal gift.

So you see the free-will of man can be viewed from two perspectives. One from being made in the image of God, which Adam had, and Abel had, who gave right offering (Cain did not give right offering, though he was still made in God's image); the other, viewed from the perspective of the flesh, that is the will of the flesh of the sin nature that can never come to the cross. Many Bible verses speak of this latter aspect that nothing of the man (of the flesh) can choose God.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

Calvinists get no respect for their offering of thinking they were pre-made for salvation. The image of God is never diminished in the man, for man is made perfect.

God longs to see the man make the choice for Him, for these are the ones He wants to be with, not the tares in the outward appearance of the kingdom of heaven. O there is so many of them.

No one was/is ever pre made for hell but all were/are made for heaven but we fell from grace and are subject to sin so now we have to chose the things of God but only with God's help will we.

It’s a pretty simple, I don’t know why so many complicate it.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I am sitting here thinking the same issue I have been thinking in the past week.... is it wise for me to stay with the ChristianForum message boards? I am getting tired.

 

[ThankyouJesus]

I am sitting here thinking the same issue I have been thinking in the past week.... is it wise for me to stay with the ChristianForum message boards? I am getting tired.

lol

 

[billwald]

"In my experience and with the Word, I have found that a calvinist always asks themselves, why they chose God (heady rationalization is sought after)?"

I don't know any Calvinists who claim they chose God.

 

[SNPete]

God's way is according to?


​

In my experience and with the Word, I have found that a calvinist always asks themselves, why they chose God (heady rationalization is sought after)? ​

Their answer is, they think they were not premade for hell, but pre-made for heaven. This is an inescapable pride as long as they continue to believe that, which separates them from God.

.

Great point! It appears that your wisdom matches your age. May I be as wise as you at age 76!

 

[JustinWindsor]

"In my experience and with the Word, I have found that a calvinist always asks themselves, why they chose God (heady rationalization is sought after)?"

I don't know any Calvinists who claim they chose God.

Neither do I. And you don't have to believe Calvin. You don't have to read or hear what he wrote. You only have to read or hear Christ or His Apostles; because God says in Scripture that He elects, He chooses, according to the kind intention of His will toward His elect.

Jesus said;

"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Matt 24:22

"Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days. Mark 13:20

And the Apostle Paul wrote;

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 2 Thess 2:13

Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, Titus 1:1

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; Romans 8:29

He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, Eph 1:5

also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, Eph 1:11

Unless someone can prove it to me Scripturally, rather than philosophically, I will continue to reject the unbiblical philosophy of 'prevenient grace' or 'free will'.

There are two faiths in this world. Faith in works, or faith in the finished work of the Cross of Calvary, that is faith born from above.

 

[iBystander]

It's always a fiery topic these days when you discuss Cavinism vs. Arminianism these days. That fact in itself makes me to wonder. I find most of the Calvin supporters have only a vague, preconceived notion of what Arminius actually put forth. I've struggled with this for many, many years and followed some heated discussions within the yahoo group "Theology_list", which is comprised mostly of scholarly theologians. I've seen some fur fly in there which again, causes me to wonder. However, my final decision resulted from my own study. I've worked hard to discard my own beliefs and predjudices as well as give serious consideration to what others have arrived at. I could put forth a better argument for the TULIP than the scriptures cited above, which rest mainly on one word, election. I would put forth just one verse for your consideration and exposition:

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

God being omniscient does, of course, give Him prescience and thus the explanation of election. I have to believe there is a universal and effectual call, evidenced by the multitude of religions that have been created to offer an answer to that call. Christianity can be as one of those many religions if a man chooses to only use them to succor that call. Unfortunately, there are many, many who fall into this category.

There is an interesting observation made by G. Campbell Morgan regarding the parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22 regarding the word "not":

The King "saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment." Then he said, "Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment?" The little word "not" appeared twice over, but it is not the same word on those two occasions. The first word, "Ou" simply marks a fact; he had not it on. But when the king asked him the reason, Jesus used a slightly different word for "not", "Me" which suggested not merely the fact that he lacked the wedding garment, but that he did so definitely, of his own thought, and will, and intention. When the man came in not having a wedding garment, and the king talked to him, he said, It is not only a fact that you have not a wedding garment; you did not intend having one. Your "not" is the "not of definite willing. You are determined not to have it on. Your presence in here is the supreme sign of your rebellion against the order set up, of which this marriage feast is the great symbol,; "And he was speechless"; he had nothing to say.

And so it will be in that day for those who profess Christ with their mouths but not their hearts. If the Cavinists are correct and I am wrong, then they were simply not "elected" and strove in fact to their greater guilt, having heard the Word and not heeded it. But wait! why would the Scriptures proclaim them as having greater guilt for having the knowledge of Christ and rejecting it if they weren't predestined in the first place? They wouldn't have a choice so shouldn't be held any further accountable for the knowledge. After all, the "T" in the TULIP, the total depravity of man. But if I am correct and they've been placated with assurances that their arrival amongst the congregation is proof of God's election and the nagging feelings of guilt is proof of repentence, woe for the sorrow to those who missed the chance to offer correction and save that poor soul.

Ultimately, these points are to no one's undoing except those who refuse to read God's Word, heed His testimonies and seek Him with the whole heart. I've not found, personally, Calvinistic adherents to be proudful, rather, they revel in it as a profound and beautiful truth of God's Love. I wouldn't argue the point except where Hyper-Calvinism comes into play, resulting in a dead faith. I am brought to rememberance of Spurgeon's sermon on the Ark in which he derides attempts to drag the poor drunkard into church, as it is a fruitless endeavour being predestined to his fate. Perhaps so, but then again, maybe not, I'm not the one to judge.


-Lance


_

 

[JustinWindsor]

Having read Arminius' "Declaration of Sentiments", in which he tries to explain his 'Free-will" theology, I must say I found it full of self-contradiction and very, very poor interpretation of Scripture.

I think I'll stick to the Apostle's explanation of the gospel.

Incidentally, I am still waiting for someone to demonstrate to me, Scripturally, that the philosophy of 'prevenient grace' is actually taught by the Apostles.

 

[theend0218]

Poor Calvin. He must have been a stupid, arrogant man. And Augustine, too. I wonder why they didn't just read their Bibles? And why did and do so many continue to follow their errors? Why can't everyone just read their Bibles and see that all of us have free-will, that God is trying to save everyone but cannot do anything that would violate free-will, that everyone has had the exact same opportunity to hear and respond to the Gospel, and that God does not do anything more for one person than another in His effort to bring them to Christ because this would be inherently unfair. It is just beyond me how anyone could miss these plain teachings of Scripture.

 

[JustinWindsor]

Poor Calvin. He must have been a stupid, arrogant man. And Augustine, too. I wonder why they didn't just read their Bibles? And why did and do so many continue to follow their errors? Why can't everyone just read their Bibles and see that all of us have free-will, that God is trying to save everyone but cannot do anything that would violate free-will, that everyone has had the exact same opportunity to hear and respond to the Gospel, and that God does not do anything more for one person than another in His effort to bring them to Christ because this would be inherently unfair. It is just beyond me how anyone could miss these plain teachings of Scripture.

Thank you for your lovingly stated opinion. Now please show me Scripturally how the Apostles teach the 'doctrine' that God will not violate man's free will AND please show me Scripturally where the Apostles teach the doctrine of prevenient grace.

 

[theend0218]

JustinWindsor - you are most welcome. I think I was caught up and carried away by the force of the OP and those who agreed with it. But I am certain the "doctrines" I mentioned above must be plainly taught throughout the Bible, otherwise Augustine and Calvin might have had some justification for their teachings.

 

[JustinWindsor]

JustinWindsor - you are most welcome. I think I was caught up and carried away by the force of the OP and those who agreed with it. But I am certain the "doctrines" I mentioned above must be plainly taught throughout the Bible, otherwise Augustine and Calvin might have had some justification for their teachings.

I, on the other hand, are not as certain as you that 'prevenient grace' is Scriptural. So, if you remain convinced by Scripture, please share with me what Scriptural evidence convicted you that 'prevenient grace' is not a lie, and that God promises in Scripture that he will not 'violate man's free will'.

If you could share such apostolic teaching I would find your position easier to understand.

 

[theend0218]

Sorry, Justin. Just goofing on the Calvin bashing and free-willism that abound here. Calvin is acutally one of my favorite authors. I find "free-will" a meaningless combination of terms. The OP came close to addressing a very real issue, one that Calvin addressed at length. I thought I might just toss out a few "doctrines" that seem necessary if one finds Calvinism far from the mark. I think unless one can affirm my earlier statements they cannot in good conscience find Calvin's concepts with regard to salvation that absurd.

 

[Tonks]

I am sitting here thinking the same issue I have been thinking in the past week.... is it wise for me to stay with the ChristianForum message boards? I am getting tired.

Maybe it is just GT. Seriously, there are 4 or 5 different threads on only 2 topics.

 

[iBystander]

Other than sharpening one's skills in debate and blessed time spent in consideration of the Scriptures, I can't recall ever seeing anything productive coming of the debate over free will. Scriptures are cited and rebuttals are made, then in turn, refuted. All participants sure that their vision is unobstructed. But contention becomes contentious, the tone changes and you can start to hear the derision loud and clear. Perhaps it's the fact that both sees the other as prideful. The one of their works unto winning their election, the other, the esteem of their election. But truly, both views would be wrong (Matt 7:3-5). Rather, both should be sympathetic to the confusion of their brother. But then, there is human nature for you, or at least our nature as it now stands. If we cannot separate it from debate then it's foolish to assume that it has no bearing upon our interpretations, regardless of how methodical our hermeneutics.

Blessings,

-Lance


_

 

[Paulines]

Some questions to see if you are saved God's way:

1) Do you believe what God longs for is to see man make the choice for Him, a conditional election afforded to all men and women, since every person is made in the image of God (Gen. 1.26,27)?

2) Does this gift of being made in God's image to be able to have the choice to come to the cross to receive Christ as Lord and Savior remain after the fall?

3) Do you believe God predestinates by foreknowing (Rom. 8.29) our free-choice (John 3.16; see Abel's right offering), but to be drawn and called by God is His part in convincing a person of salvation?

4) Can a person choose the cross (a resistible grace) without God having to first save or give him faith first?

5) Do you believe God will activate the gift of faith when the person chooses the cross?

6) Do you reject the notion that a person has to be saved first or first given faith before she can believe?

7) Do you refuse the idea that God would save some and not others without first regard for our choice?