Election:Talk is cheap

[billwald]

If God doesn't elect on the basis of foreknowledge of good works, being a good neighbor, "inviting Jesus . . . , then on what basis? Bad works?

If God elects on some basis that is unknown to us or not understandable to us, then as far as we can know, God's election is a random process.

If election is a random process, then considering the world population, it is statistically improbable that anyone in the OPC (or the CRC or any numerically small Christian denomination) is "elect."

What you OPCs (or whomever) going to say when you find yourselves in Hell?

If this analysis is incorrect, then on what basis does God elect?

 

[Knight]

If God doesn't elect on the basis of foreknowledge of good works, being a good neighbor, "inviting Jesus . . . , then on what basis? Bad works?

I'm not sure I understand this. Would you please clarify?

If God elects on some basis that is unknown to us or not understandable to us, then as far as we can know, God's election is a random process.

Just because it may seem random to us does not mean that it is.

If election is a random process, then considering the world population, it is statistically improbable that anyone in the OPC (or the CRC or any numerically small Christian denomination) is "elect."

What are you refering to with OPC and CPC?

God's Grace is not driven by numbers.

What you OPCs (or whomever) going to say when you find yourselves in Hell?

Ref: Above question.

If this analysis is incorrect, then on what basis does God elect?

I'm not sure what you mean by "basis".

 

[II Paradox II]

If God elects on some basis that is unknown to us or not understandable to us, then as far as we can know, God's election is a random process.

1) The reasons for God's election is largely unknowable to us. what's the problem with that?

2) God reveals a few things about His election. He says that he elects for His own glory. That he raises the humble and lowers the proud. He says he does not bring in many wise or great, but many who are weak in the eyes of the world. Outside of that I cannot think of many other criteria...

ken

 

[LynneClomina]

i believe that when He CREATED me, no, nix that, when He PLANNED to create me, he stamped me with His mark - predestined to salvation. and he planned before the foundation of the world who was not predestined to salvation as well.

2 Tim 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.

 

[Bulldog]

What are you refering to with OPC and CPC?

OPC is the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. CPC is the Cumberland Presbyterian Church.

 

[Bulldog]

What you OPCs (or whomever) going to say when you find yourselves in Hell?

If this analysis is incorrect, then on what basis does God elect?

Election is not based on any quality of the person. We see this very clearly in Romans 9:11

Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

That is supposed to be a ; ) (minus the space)

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

I will reiterate Romans 9:11. God does not elect based upon either good or evil works. The paraphrase a little more of Romans 9, God has mercy and compassion upon whom he will. To say that God is unjust in his calling is to fail to recognize that God is the creator of all things and therefore is not "required" to save any. That he saves any is of his own pleasure. The thing created shall not say to creator, why hast thou made me thus?

Although God predestines some to mercy, and some to wrath, keep in mind that God works through the Gospel, through preaching of the word (Romans 10). God does not perform his works in a mysterious way. Those who hear the Gospel and are truly converted will have everlasting life.

 

[Reformationist]

If God doesn't elect on the basis of foreknowledge of good works, being a good neighbor, "inviting Jesus . . . , then on what basis? Bad works?

Eph 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

There you go. He elected us because it pleased Him and brought Him glory. IOW, it wasn't about you. It was about Him. Thank God. If we had to rely on God picking us based on our own good works not only would none of go to Heaven, we'd all gladly earn our way to hell many times over.

If God elects on some basis that is unknown to us or not understandable to us, then as far as we can know, God's election is a random process.

Let me get this straight. Unless you understand why God did something then He did it for some arbitrary reason? Okay. So the sun is the center of our universe and billwald is the center of God's immutable plan. Got it.

What you OPCs (or whomever) going to say when you find yourselves in Hell?

Is this a trick question? Okay. I give. What are they going to say?

If this analysis is incorrect, then on what basis does God elect?

The pleasure of His good will. I know the idea that God gets to pick is unfair to you, despite the fact that if it weren't for Him we wouldn't exist but, fortunately, He is the one who picks and He doesn't base it on our works.

God bless

 

[BBAS 64]

If God doesn't elect on the basis of foreknowledge of good works, being a good neighbor, "inviting Jesus . . . , then on what basis? Bad works??

Good Day, Billwald

I do not Know exactly on what basis, This much I do know it is his basis alone. Wheather I understand it or not is not even an issue for God.

If God elects on some basis that is unknown to us or not understandable to us, then as far as we can know, God's election is a random process.?

It may seem random from our POV, but I am sure it is not random "that is with out purpose".

If election is a random process, then considering the world population, it is statistically improbable that anyone in the OPC (or the CRC or any numerically small Christian denomination) is "elect."

What you OPCs (or whomever) going to say when you find yourselves in Hell?

If this analysis is incorrect, then on what basis does God elect?

"if "that is a big word. What if God choses of his own good will and does so on no basis at all?

If the moon was made of Cheese?


Peace to u,

BBAS

 

[Bulldog]

When you think about it, it would be a crueler act for Gog to give us the choice then for Him to elect(whic is not cruel at all). I feel better knowing that my salvation is in the hand of Almighty God and not my sinful ones.

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Consider also that if it is truly your decision to come to Christ, is it not then your decision to leave Christ, I.E. fall from grace?

 

[LynneClomina]

1.) humanity fell.

2.) the wages of sin is death.

3.) we are all going to hell.

4.) God is Just to send us all to hell. we deserve it. and He is God. he is justified in His sending us to hell!

5.) but wait a minute. God decided when he knew me before the foundation of the world that He was gonna save me. Just because. i rightly deserve hell. but he loves me and chooses to save me.

6.) wait a minute, that's not fair! your're right. if He was fair, he'd send me to hell to. but where in the bible does it say He's fair?

7.) so, i am predestined to salvation, while others are (by default) "destined" to eternal dangnation.

8.) in saving the elect, does that mean he owes something to the non-elect? yep, he owes them the wages of their sin - death. and believe me, they will get what they are owed.

 

[Bulldog]

8.) in saving the elect, does that mean he owes something to the non-elect? yep, he owes them the wages of their sin - death. and believe me, they will get what they are owed.

The elect also deserve this. But God, in his Grace saves us even when we do not deserve it. That's why election is fair.

 

[LynneClomina]

The elect also deserve this. But God, in his Grace saves us even when we do not deserve it. That's why election is fair.

yep, we deserve it too. but doesnt that prove that election is NOT "fair"??

 

[Bulldog]

yep, we deserve it too. but doesnt that prove that election is NOT "fair"??

True, it's not fair. A better word would be loving.

 

[LynneClomina]

True, it's not fair. A better word would be loving.

yeah.

God is so good...

ELECTION ISNT FAIR, ITS LOVING.

amen.

 

[Lotar]

WWLS:

God has surely promised His grace to the humbled: that is, to those who mourn over and despair of themselves. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled till he realises that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, councels, efforts, will and works, and depends absolutely on the will, counsel, pleasure and work of Another - God alone. As long as he is persuaded that he can make even the smallest contribution to his salvation, he remains self-confident does not utterly despair himself, and so is not humbled before God; but plans out for himself (or at least hopes and longs for) a position, an occasion, a work, which shall bring him final salvation. But he who is out of doubt that his destiny depends entirely upon the will of God despairs entirely for himself, chooses nothing for himself, but waits for God to work in him; and such a man is very near to grace for his salvation.
-Martin Luther

 

[Reformationist]

WWLS:

God has surely promised His grace to the humbled: that is, to those who mourn over and despair of themselves. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled till he realises that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, councels, efforts, will and works, and depends absolutely on the will, counsel, pleasure and work of Another - God alone. As long as he is persuaded that he can make even the smallest contribution to his salvation, he remains self-confident does not utterly despair himself, and so is not humbled before God; but plans out for himself (or at least hopes and longs for) a position, an occasion, a work, which shall bring him final salvation. But he who is out of doubt that his destiny depends entirely upon the will of God despairs entirely for himself, chooses nothing for himself, but waits for God to work in him; and such a man is very near to grace for his salvation.
-Martin Luther

I have always loved Luther's ability to see through things to the heart of the matter.

God bless

 

[theFijian]

What you OPCs (or whomever) going to say when you find yourselves in Hell?

Sheesh! It's a tad on the warm side in here!

Andy

 

[Knight]

Was there any point to this thread other than an attempted attack on Reformed Theology?