Elders

[jameshjr]

Hello all,

So the focus of my church at the moment is on growing our church. I have thought about this a lot and i believe that the primary way to do this is to follow Gods word as best as we are able.

However, my church does not seem concerned with this. One obvious example is that we have female elders. From my understanding of scripture, it is clear that one of the qualifications for a church elder is that they are male.

It is therefore my belief that if we were to appoint male only elders, this would please God and in return He would bless our church and help us to grow not only in numbers but also in each church members love of Jesus Christ: or at least start us moving in that direction.

The problem here is this: i believe that bringing this idea up will cause controversy and conflict and i am reluctant to be the person who causes division and ill feeling in my church and probably getting a reputation as a trouble maker/ contentious person.

However, it seems to me that if God redeems a person and chooses a church for that person to worship Him in, He would be more likely to send them to a church that cares about following His word thanone that is seemingly unconcerned about it.

Therefore my question is this: would addressing this issue/topic be the right thing to do or am i acting like a pharisee? because i am to-ing and fro-ing over it a great deal.

Sometimes i think it is not a big deal, but then i also wonder about Paul entering our church and looking at our elders board. Would he overlook this? or would he weep over our hard-hearts? Is the Lord pleased that we are disregarding a seeminlgy clear instruction as to how we are to order a church that pleases Him? or is He also unconcerned over the point? Would He want me to focus on something else? is this a trivial point?

 

[PloverWing]

There appear to have been reasons for Paul to advise Timothy's church to have married men as elders in Timothy's particular church. Whether this restriction applies to churches other than Timothy's, and how to incorporate insights from other writings like Galatians 3 and Romans 16, is a matter of disagreement among Christians.

Is your church part of a larger denomination? If so, what is your denomination's view on permitting women and/or single people to serve as clergy? Do you agree or disagree with their reasoning?

 

[jameshjr]

Hello, thank you for the message.

To my mind, it does not seem as though Timothy 3 is giving instructions to the one church Timothy is at. Additionally Titus 1 seems to back this up.

My church is the part of the united reformed Church group (Uk). I am not aware as to what their policy on permitting women and single people as memebrs of the clergy is, however, i have no reason to doubt that my church would do anything against their policies. I am unaware of their reasoning for their decision to allow women to serve as clergy and from a brief look at their website, i cannot find the answer to that question.

 

[PloverWing]

If it's this group [ What is the URC? ], then you may not have luck persuading them to agree with you. Their web site says "We were pioneers in ordaining women – our first female minster was ordained more than 100 years ago in 1917." Making that decision at that time, over a century ago, would not have been something they chose lightly; they are indeed pioneers.

One possibility is to talk to your minister about your thoughts, and about the church's beliefs. I suspect you won't come to an agreement, but you might understand each other better by the end of the conversation.

You've said that your primary interest is following God's word and seeing the church grow. Are there other areas in which you're more in agreement with the church's beliefs, and in which you might be able to participate wholeheartedly in some ministry that the church is involved with?

 

[Paidiske]

The difficult reallity on the question of women as elders is that people on both sides of the argument sincerely believe that they are following God's word as best as they are able. You are unlikely, therefore, to convince anyone to change their position based on an appeal to the need to follow God's word.

If you otherwise feel that this church is where God wants you to be serving and using your gifts, I'd focus on what you can do that will make a positive difference.

 

[Vanellus]

I think if you examine individual churches I don't think you'll find a simple relationship that those with female elders don't grow and those with only male elders do grow. Now that's not a reason not to have only male elders but I don't think the "if we do this then God will enable our church to grow" is a valid argument. There's no such specific promise related to having only male elders in the Bible afaik. And there are some churches that don't have any elders.

It's true that people interpret the Bible differently but I still think the Bible should be our yard stick for determining such questions, not just popular opinion.

 

[jameshjr]

If it's this group [ What is the URC? ], then you may not have luck persuading them to agree with you. Their web site says "We were pioneers in ordaining women – our first female minster was ordained more than 100 years ago in 1917." Making that decision at that time, over a century ago, would not have been something they chose lightly; they are indeed pioneers.

One possibility is to talk to your minister about your thoughts, and about the church's beliefs. I suspect you won't come to an agreement, but you might understand each other better by the end of the conversation.

You've said that your primary interest is following God's word and seeing the church grow. Are there other areas in which you're more in agreement with the church's beliefs, and in which you might be able to participate wholeheartedly in some ministry that the church is involved with?

You make a fair point about it being unlikley that i will change their mind on the subject. I will mention this to my reverend.

My church is an elderly congregation and has been declining in numbers for a long time. Additionally, there was a controversial biblical subject brought up about two years ago that from what i hear (i was not a member then) split the church in two and my church was not -from my beliefs- on the correct side of the argument and i wonder if our decline in numbers is a result of this (i.e. Gods judgement)

A lot of the current ministries at my church are based during the week when i am at work and therefore it is difficult to get involved, though i am involved in a couple of them.

Myself, and a friend of mine from church are starting up a weekly/ bi weekly drink at a pub with the male members of our church with the emphasis on discussing our church and its growth and not the weekend football scores. Additionally, we have an evening service in the research and development stage ( as we currently have one service a week).

Finally there is seemingly no emphasis on sharing our faith with outsiders and i have taken it upon myself to do this.

 

[jameshjr]

The difficult reallity on the question of women as elders is that people on both sides of the argument sincerely believe that they are following God's word as best as they are able. You are unlikely, therefore, to convince anyone to change their position based on an appeal to the need to follow God's word.

If you otherwise feel that this church is where God wants you to be serving and using your gifts, I'd focus on what you can do that will make a positive difference.

Hello thank you for the message.

I agree that there are people on both sides of the argument and that they both sincerely believe that they are following Gods word; however there are also people who sincerely believe the world is flat, sincerity does not make them right or their opinion valid.

I beleive i am invovled in trying to make a difference. However, as i said: as i think about this a lot. I believe it is very clear in the beginning of Revelations that Jesus judges the seven churches when they are against His teachings, and also threatens them with punishment if they do not repent.

Therefore, for example, if a church was teaching universalism, but some of the congregation were involved in a ministry helping the homeless, would Jesus bless this church?

The point i am trying to make is this, if a church is getting some (potentially) big things wrong, but (possibly) doing some little things right, is it reasonable to expect God to bless that church?

 

[jameshjr]

I think if you examine individual churches I don't think you'll find a simple relationship that those with female elders don't grow and those with only male elders do grow.

It would be very difficult to do this, but i expect that the ones with all male elders (who also meet the other qualifications) would be sounder churches than those who have mixed elders.

Now that's not a reason not to have only male elders but I don't think the "if we do this then God will enable our church to grow" is a valid argument. There's no such specific promise related to having only male elders in the Bible afaik. And there are some churches that don't have any elders.

I agree that there is no specific promise that God will bless churches who have male only elders; however, i believe that God promises to bless those who follow his word- or at least try to.

It's true that people interpret the Bible differently but I still think the Bible should be our yard stick for determining such questions, not just popular opinion.

I agree, and my opinion is that popular opinion is the reason that female eldership is commonplace.

 

[Paidiske]

The point i am trying to make is this, if a church is getting some (potentially) big things wrong, but (possibly) doing some little things right, is it reasonable to expect God to bless that church?

From my point of view, that's a bit above my pay grade. I try to do the work in front of me faithfully, and leave the results to God. From what I can see, there isn't necessarily a correlative relationship between the level of doctrinal perfection and growing numbers in the congregation, on the one hand; and it might be that God's blessing for a church isn't in numerical growth at a particular point in time, on the other hand.

I'm not meaning to be flippant or dismissive; I was actually trying to be helpful to you in pointing out that the conversation you want to have, if you attempt to have it, won't be constructively framed as a question of following God's word, since churches which appoint women elders do so out of conviction that they are following God's word.

I cannot tell you whether bringing this up is the right thing to do, but I can tell you that you probably need a different approach if you want a constructive outcome.

 

[jameshjr]

From my point of view, that's a bit above my pay grade. I try to do the work in front of me faithfully, and leave the results to God. From what I can see, there isn't necessarily a correlative relationship between the level of doctrinal perfection and growing numbers in the congregation,

I disagree on that point. it seems to me that as the church gets further away from the teaching of Jesus in the last century, there has been a decline in church atttendance. I wouldnt call the issue of eldership a matter of doctrinal perfection, but i would think that it is one of the more fundamental parts of church organisation.

on the one hand; and it might be that God's blessing for a church isn't in numerical growth at a particular point in time, on the other hand.

I have had this thought a number of times and do believe it could be Gods will to let the churches in this country fail, and to build something from their bones.

I'm not meaning to be flippant or dismissive; I was actually trying to be helpful to you in pointing out that the conversation you want to have, if you attempt to have it, won't be constructively framed as a question of following God's word, since churches which appoint women elders do so out of conviction that they are following God's word.

I did not mean it to be rude, but it does frustrate me when i see over and over again people failing to accept Gods view points on things (not speaking about you, but in general) because they prefer the worlds point of view.

I cannot tell you whether bringing this up is the right thing to do, but I can tell you that you probably need a different approach if you want a constructive outcome.

Perhaps you are right, and i would bring more people along with me if i did not shoot as straight, but maybe that is what is needed.

 

[Vanellus]

jameshjr,

I agree that God promises to bless those who obey Him - and that this applies to churches as well as individuals. What form does that blessing take? Prosperity gospel teaches that it is worldly material blessings. Of course there is much in the OT about abundance of crops but at this time people depended on the produce of the land in order to survive (as we do now but more remotely) - and I doubt that obesity was such a big problem back then (apart from the very rich maybe).

A church could be doctrinally correct on such matters as you have raised yet lack love between its members. You have raised just one issue when there are so many. So, again I don't think having (say) only male elders guarantees church growth and I feel you should abandon the idea: it's too much focus on just one issue.

 

[WolfGate]

My biggest advice for you is to recognize that since sincere Christians who believe the message of the gospel and seek to follow God's word disagree on many non-gospel issues, some are wrong on these types of issues despite their sincere beliefs. Since you are also a sincere Christian who believes the message of the gospel and seeks to follow God's word, then you are also likely wrong on some things you sincerely believe. All of us are almost certainly wrong on many non-gospel areas of our understanding and interpretation of scripture and we'll figure that out when we get to heaven. So approach this entire issue with your church from a point of humility.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Hello all,

So the focus of my church at the moment is on growing our church. I have thought about this a lot and i believe that the primary way to do this is to follow Gods word as best as we are able.

However, my church does not seem concerned with this. One obvious example is that we have female elders. From my understanding of scripture, it is clear that one of the qualifications for a church elder is that they are male.

It is therefore my belief that if we were to appoint male only elders, this would please God and in return He would bless our church and help us to grow not only in numbers but also in each church members love of Jesus Christ: or at least start us moving in that direction.

The problem here is this: i believe that bringing this idea up will cause controversy and conflict and i am reluctant to be the person who causes division and ill feeling in my church and probably getting a reputation as a trouble maker/ contentious person.

However, it seems to me that if God redeems a person and chooses a church for that person to worship Him in, He would be more likely to send them to a church that cares about following His word thanone that is seemingly unconcerned about it.

Therefore my question is this: would addressing this issue/topic be the right thing to do or am i acting like a pharisee? because i am to-ing and fro-ing over it a great deal.

Sometimes i think it is not a big deal, but then i also wonder about Paul entering our church and looking at our elders board. Would he overlook this? or would he weep over our hard-hearts? Is the Lord pleased that we are disregarding a seeminlgy clear instruction as to how we are to order a church that pleases Him? or is He also unconcerned over the point? Would He want me to focus on something else? is this a trivial point?

From reading more of your posts in this thread, it does appear your membership is with a liberal church.

Churches now appear to be in one of two general camps. The more conservative only ordains men or has male pastors and elders, and the more liberal churches are ordaining women or having female pastors and elders, and in many cases will ordain or otherwise have practicing homosexuals in positions of leadership (elders, pastors) as well as perform gay marriages.

If you find yourself someone who is more conservative/traditional (as am I) you may consider gravitating to a more conservative church than the one you now attend.

These issues are splitting up entire denominations - so bringing it up to your church will likely not bring positive results.

Probably better to look for a church that teaches a traditional theology in practice.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Hello all,

So the focus of my church at the moment is on growing our church. I have thought about this a lot and i believe that the primary way to do this is to follow Gods word as best as we are able.

However, my church does not seem concerned with this. One obvious example is that we have female elders. From my understanding of scripture, it is clear that one of the qualifications for a church elder is that they are male.

It is therefore my belief that if we were to appoint male only elders, this would please God and in return He would bless our church and help us to grow not only in numbers but also in each church members love of Jesus Christ: or at least start us moving in that direction.

The problem here is this: i believe that bringing this idea up will cause controversy and conflict and i am reluctant to be the person who causes division and ill feeling in my church and probably getting a reputation as a trouble maker/ contentious person.

However, it seems to me that if God redeems a person and chooses a church for that person to worship Him in, He would be more likely to send them to a church that cares about following His word thanone that is seemingly unconcerned about it.

Therefore my question is this: would addressing this issue/topic be the right thing to do or am i acting like a pharisee? because i am to-ing and fro-ing over it a great deal.

Sometimes i think it is not a big deal, but then i also wonder about Paul entering our church and looking at our elders board. Would he overlook this? or would he weep over our hard-hearts? Is the Lord pleased that we are disregarding a seeminlgy clear instruction as to how we are to order a church that pleases Him? or is He also unconcerned over the point? Would He want me to focus on something else? is this a trivial point?

I used to be hung up on this but now I am certain that God welcomes men and women to preach the Gospel. Jesus Christ of Nazareth never said women are not qualified, as a matter of fact it was a woman who witnessed His resurrection first and spread the Good News to the rest of the Body. So it really is a waste of time and energy fighting about gender when so few attempt to step up to the position of leading the Flock into righteousness. At this point we have so many preaching a false Gospel we should be so lucky to find the truth among them. Judge the message not the messenger.
Blessings.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Well, my general observation is that the modern church is a mess as it is; regardless of what issue you're looking at. So I understand your reservations about "Do I be the "squeaky wheel"? I have the same levels of conviction(s); although not the same types of convictions.

I feel like I'm almost "playing a whole different ball game." though. And not that I don't want to be in a church. I just haven't found one that myself and my son can "fit into". (My son has some developmental issues.) I'm a widow now. My husband had had a couple of affairs, kicked myself and his own son out of the apartment and when girlfriend #2 broke up with him; he committed suicide. And it seems that many "traditional" type churches see that as some failing of mine? Yeah, one could accuse me of making a bad choice of who I married; but I also didn't come from a stable upbringing either.

The other issue I've found, is because I'm a person who really likes to talk about theology; and because I'm rather logical, pragmatic and have had a lot of (not necessarily positive) life experiences (I was in the military and did clean up after Desert Storm.) I tend to gravitate more toward conversations with men; which has caused a lot of undue suspicion. (This was the issue with the church I was at the longest. Me and my son were there for 10 years. A lot of stuff happened that made it really clear that we weren't wanted. Finally I left. And I guess the lesson I learned is not to put up with churches' unresolved problems that long again. It was a painful lesson though!)

Right now in my life, I'm 52 years old. I'm pretty content with my life. We have sufficient financial resources and I own my own home. I like our independence (been married once = been there done that - "got the t-shirt"); so I'm not looking to get married. Yet it seems particularly in the past 15 or so years, that I've encountered a lot of women in churches who are insecure in their own marriages.

Although I have found a few other women who are quite theologically deep themselves; and whom aren't "offended" by my "warrior type" personality. One lady; older lady at the last church I was at; that I'd gotten to know a bit. Her husband had taken a distinct disliking to me, because I'm a Cessationist. So I left there. Church before that; was a fellow who was "sincerely convicted" that he needed to follow OT dietary laws. And he'd get snotty with me in Sunday school class. So I left there too.

Not that all of my church fellowship experiences have been negative. Right after I'd gotten out of the military. I was invited to a house church group. And in 30 plus years of being a Christian, that was the only "church" I felt like I was wanted, and that these people cared about me as a person and not whether or not I was "polished' in their perception of what they thought a "Christian woman" should be.

It was me and 4 other couples. The fellow who ran the group was a Department of Defense contractor. One of the guys was either an EMT or a retired cop. I think one of the other fellows was a social worker and the last guy was computer networking "tech nerd". And a couple of their wives had taught in the public schools. So, none of these people had lived "sheltered lives".

It was really hard when the group broke up due to circumstances beyond any of our control. The DOD contractor's job moved them. The "tech nerd"; his wife's parents got sick, so they moved out of state. The EMT / cop fellow was dealing with health issues (and also probably had some PTSD type stuff going on) And the social worker fellow was just like: "I'm not a Bible study teacher / church leader. That is not my gift. I know that." And that was the end of that group. We lost track of each other over time and... God I miss those people.

That's happened a couple of times. There was a group of people when I was in the military that I worshiped with where the same thing happened. Things changed and people moved for various reasons.

Finding a faithful AND CARING church is hard!

And outside of a couple of those rare occasions where a fellowship "clicked"; I've only managed to "pick up" a few Christian friends here and there. So yeah, finding a church is hard.

At this point though, I don't have a whole lot of tolerance for nonsense and clique type behavior. And after what happened with the church we were at for 10 years, my son won't even go any more. He sticks to his on-line Bible study groups and Christian gammer friends. While I listen to podcasts and sermons on YouTube.

So my advise would be that if you've found a group of people who genuinely care about you whom you can still accept their doctrinal imperfections; stay there. But if they don't meet any two of those qualifications, than find someplace else. It's not likely you are going to change their minds. "Good churches" require caring people who are humble enough to learn.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I used to be hung up on this but now I am certain that God welcomes men and women to preach the Gospel. Jesus Christ of Nazareth never said women are not qualified, as a matter of fact it was a woman who witnessed His resurrection first and spread the Good News to the rest of the Body. So it really is a waste of time and energy fighting about gender when so few attempt to step up to the position of leading the Flock into righteousness. At this point we have so many preaching a false Gospel we should be so lucky to find the truth among them. Judge the message not the messenger.
Blessings.

I agree with you that spreading the gospel is everyone responsibility; and sometimes that involves women "preaching" and "teaching". Clearly, we do see examples of female leaders in both the Old and New Testaments. Which makes reconciling certain passages difficult, because they seem 180 degrees contradictory. I think the problem there is that we actually misunderstand the content (and context) of the language of the difficult passages.

The other side of this though is; in particularly polarized America / western countries today; church's traditional beliefs about gender roles are hard to "break through" and today I think that's because a lot of those beliefs are tied to observations of crumbling society (i.e = crumbling because of lack of "proper family roles"). The social issues in society and leadership in church are hard issues to separate.

We live in scary times that try all human souls!

 

[Hazelelponi]

NVM...

 

[WolfGate]

From reading more of your posts in this thread, it does appear your membership is with a liberal church.

Churches now appear to be in one of two general camps. The more conservative only ordains men or has male pastors and elders, and the more liberal churches are ordaining women or having female pastors and elders, and in many cases will ordain or otherwise have practicing homosexuals in positions of leadership (elders, pastors) as well as perform gay marriages.

If you find yourself someone who is more conservative/traditional (as am I) you may consider gravitating to a more conservative church than the one you now attend.

These issues are splitting up entire denominations - so bringing it up to your church will likely not bring positive results.

Probably better to look for a church that teaches a traditional theology in practice.

Hazelponi - I do agree with your overall thought that the OP might in the end need to look for another church more in line with their conclusions. I don't think on the basis of this issue alone that we can conclude the OP's church is not theologically conservative, especially as it relates to having a high view of scripture or belief in bible inerrancy. There are some large denominations that are very conservative and align well with evangelical or even orthodox viewpoints except in one or two areas such as spiritual gifts or female clergy. Many of the charismatic churches fit that mold, but I've also seen some Calvinistic ones that do also. Regardless, the OP would know their other leanings and so your advice is a good thought for the OP.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Hazelponi - I do agree with your overall thought that the OP might in the end need to look for another church more in line with their conclusions. I don't think on the basis of this issue alone that we can conclude the OP's church is not theologically conservative, especially as it relates to having a high view of scripture or belief in bible inerrancy. There are some large denominations that are very conservative and align well with evangelical or even orthodox viewpoints except in one or two areas such as spiritual gifts or female clergy. Many of the charismatic churches fit that mold, but I've also seen some Calvinistic ones that do also. Regardless, the OP would know their other leanings and so your advice is a good thought for the OP.

Good of you to point out, thank you!