ELCA + Episcopal

[netgenius2]

Stuck out here so far from the mass of humanity, we don't get to talk to other Lutherans outside of our congregation very much. So, I was wondering what anyone else thinks about the Call to Common Purpose between the ELCA and the Episcopal Church.

Most of the theology of the two denominations seems the same. The polity is different. The ELCA congregation seems to have a lot more independance than our Episcopal counterparts. We hold our democratic process very dear.

We just combined the American Lutheran Church and the Evangelical Lutheran Church a few years back. Some of us are just getting used to that. This new thing is a bit disconcerting.

 

[SPALATIN]

Stuck out here so far from the mass of humanity, we don't get to talk to other Lutherans outside of our congregation very much. So, I was wondering what anyone else thinks about the Call to Common Purpose between the ELCA and the Episcopal Church.

Most of the theology of the two denominations seems the same. The polity is different. The ELCA congregation seems to have a lot more independance than our Episcopal counterparts. We hold our democratic process very dear.

We just combined the American Lutheran Church and the Evangelical Lutheran Church a few years back. Some of us are just getting used to that. This new thing is a bit disconcerting.

A few years back? Wow what is your definition of a few. The ALC, LCA and AELC along with a few smaller synods combined and became ELCA in 1988, though the talks started around 1980 or so.

As for the rest I am going to let some of the faithful ELCA experts answer for if I get on my soapbox I might offend one of them and I wouldn't like to do that here. I will only say that I feel it is wrong and let it stand as I have let it be known on other threads as to why.

 

[netgenius2]

OK, I do have tendency to lose track of time. But that lets you know how slowly our isolated congregation adjusts to change. Somethings we take to quickly, other things we take along time to digest.

 

[Phoebe]

I'm not fond of this "common purpose" thing. In 2005, there will be a vote to ordain homosexual clergy.

 

[Phoebe]

I need to find out more about all of this stuff.

 

[JVAC]

Stuck out here so far from the mass of humanity, we don't get to talk to other Lutherans outside of our congregation very much. So, I was wondering what anyone else thinks about the Call to Common Purpose between the ELCA and the Episcopal Church.

Most of the theology of the two denominations seems the same. The polity is different. The ELCA congregation seems to have a lot more independance than our Episcopal counterparts. We hold our democratic process very dear.

We just combined the American Lutheran Church and the Evangelical Lutheran Church a few years back. Some of us are just getting used to that. This new thing is a bit disconcerting.

Well, other than the Anglicans on this Forum, I think I am the only one strongly in favor of the "Called to Common Mission". I have invoked the priveledge of this only once, and I find that it is indeed quite an awesome deal! If I need to celebrate the Eucharist and am not near an ELCA church, or there are none open, I can celebrate with my Anglican brothers. The blessed Sacrament of the Altar is indeed the most awesome gift given to the Church and should be most reverently and frequently celebrated in the Church and CCM is a great way for the Church to do this.

(Please note, I have different feelings about other "Communion Agreements" ex: PCUSA, etc.)

-James

 

[netgenius2]

I suppose the real concerns of my fellow Lutherans here in Craig is that, from our point of view, we are being pushed into combining our congregation with the local Episcopal congregation, and loseing our identity as Lutherans. Of course our friends in the Episcopal congregation are concerned about being forced to combine with us and loseing their unique Episcopal identity.

The concept of joint or blended services with a shared pastor/priest is more cost efficient for smaller, isolated congregations. From the perspective of the synod and diacese this looks like a great idea, a win/win solution. But the smaller, more isolated congregations are tight knit communities, who have been just bearly holding on to their place in their towns for awhile, and therefore, they are the least likely to embrace submerging their identity in a blended congregation.

 

[Protoevangel]

CCM is a betrayal of the Lutheran church. We discussed CCM not too long ago: http://www.christianforums.com/t709693

 

[SPALATIN]

I suppose the real concerns of my fellow Lutherans here in Craig is that, from our point of view, we are being pushed into combining our congregation with the local Episcopal congregation, and loseing our identity as Lutherans. Of course our friends in the Episcopal congregation are concerned about being forced to combine with us and loseing their unique Episcopal identity.

The concept of joint or blended services with a shared pastor/priest is more cost efficient for smaller, isolated congregations. From the perspective of the synod and diacese this looks like a great idea, a win/win solution. But the smaller, more isolated congregations are tight knit communities, who have been just bearly holding on to their place in their towns for awhile, and therefore, they are the least likely to embrace submerging their identity in a blended congregation.

While I feel for your situation I might ask this question. Is there any other Lutheran church within 10 to 15 miles of where you live? Is it LCMS or WELS or ELS? If you feel that staying in this congregation and letting it merge would in any way compromise your identity as a Lutheran why not try one of those churches. They are probably going to seem a little more strict to you considering that none of them have women's ordination and WELS and ELS don't have women's suffrage either.

But if that doesn't bother you these churches all proclaim Christ and follow the Lutheran Confessions/BIble.

Also if both sides are having a difficult time with this issue who is pressing the need to combine? Is it the ELCA or the ECUSA?

 

[netgenius2]

Originally, we rented space from the Seventh Day Adventists. But they were always giving us grief over the Communion wine and our coffee.

Lutherans without coffee?

We got tired of hiding the wine and coffee pot. The Episcopals had an early service and were already renting to the Methodists for a late morning service. So, we took the middle slot.

Then the Episcopals lost their priest. Our pastor was hired under the CCM agreement, studies and was ordained as an Episcopal priest. (They wont take communion from anyone but a priest who has been ordained by one of their bishops. Apostolic line of succession stuff.) We still had separate services, except in the summer when attendance was so low we combined the service and aleternated between the two liturgies.

Then our pastor of 7 years received a call to another church. To shorten a long story, after juggling supply ministers for awhile, we ended up with an interim priest. Now the joint call committee has recommend an Episcopal priest for our pastor. Everyone really likes her, and we feel she is Spirit filled. The vote joint of both congregations was overwhelming to call her.

But, and this is a big one, most of the Lutherans were impressed by her offer to have separate servies if that's what the people want.

Seems simple, right? Well, there is a church in Price, Utah that has progressively combined ELCA and ECUSA congregations over 12 years. Some of our members visited it. They were impressed by that congregation, building, service format, music, sense of community, etc. So, they are pulling for our building the same community, overnight.

(Sorry this is so long.

)

There is a LCMS a block down and accross the street. They are why there is an ELCA congregation.

Well, we could use a lot of prayer.

 

[filosofer]

Sadly, church history over the past 400 years has shown that every merger/fellowship attempt between Lutherans and non-Lutherans results in a non-Lutheran Church (as far as public confession of the faith) within one generation.

 

[SPALATIN]

Sadly, church history over the past 400 years has shown that every merger/fellowship attempt between Lutherans and non-Lutherans results in a non-Lutheran Church (as far as public confession of the faith) within one generation.

Would you say then that it is a result of Synergistic over Monergistic theology?

IOW The church that says we must do something to gain our salvation convincing the church that says we do nothing of our own accord for salvation that their way is truth.

 

[netgenius2]

Interesting concept. In order to not be a stumbling block to our brother, we conform to their doctrine, and thus loose our identity.

 

[Tetzel]

CCM is an outrage and is a large part of why I'm now LCMS instead of ELCA. The fundamental problem with CCM is that the AC (anglican communion) has way too much variance in order to make a proper agreement. There is a broad segment of Anglicans that would fit in well with Lutheranism, but the presence of Anglo-Catholics within their communion means that there are people within the AC who are opposed to Lutheran theology. There are also some extremely liberal trains of theology within the AC that are even too far out of line for the ELCA.

 

[SPALATIN]

Stuck out here so far from the mass of humanity, we don't get to talk to other Lutherans outside of our congregation very much. So, I was wondering what anyone else thinks about the Call to Common Purpose between the ELCA and the Episcopal Church.

Most of the theology of the two denominations seems the same. The polity is different. The ELCA congregation seems to have a lot more independance than our Episcopal counterparts. We hold our democratic process very dear.

We just combined the American Lutheran Church and the Evangelical Lutheran Church a few years back. Some of us are just getting used to that. This new thing is a bit disconcerting.

A few years? in 2008 the ELCA will be 20 years old.

Though I am not in the ELCA any longer I was in a church for about 2.5 years. I was and am still against the CCM in the ELCA. It gave too much power to the Episcopal side though there are some Pastors over the past couple of years that have elected to be ordained without the Episcopal Bishop presiding. Some feel these pastors have limited themselves, but I think they have empowered themselves to practice Christian Liberty.

 

[artrx]

This may be a bit off topic, but when we were living in Ecuador we attended a joint Lutheran/Episcopal english-speaking church. The services alternated between two priests/pastors. However the Lutheran pastor oversaw the general life of the church. It was a wonderful fellowship and I learned alot more about the Lutheran Church. It helped that a number of us were all in the same line of work- Catholic Relief Services, Lutheran World Relief and Mennonite Economic Develpement Associates. I felt we were all of very similar minds, respected and honored each other's traditions, and were willing to learn from each other. Interestingly, all of us did not feel comfortable in the other non-denominational Christian english-speaking church. I see the CCP as a way of honoring basic shared beliefs, not as a way of homogenizing our individuality.

 

[pmcleanj]

My perspective on joint Lutheran/Anglican worship may be a bit skewed by unusual circumstances: I worship weekly at a Lutheran Church with the rest of my family, but I and my elder daughter are Anglicans. For two years while our ELCIC church was building a new church-building, we had joint services with an Anglican congregation -- but it wasn't my home congregation. I am a liturgical conservative; the church we shared services with is a liturgically innovative charismatic congregation (with six-piece worship band, dancers, and speaking in tongues). Our ELCIC congregation is even more aliturgical than they are, but doesn't get involved with speaking in tongues.

For a year, we alternated between minimalist Anglican liturgy and minimalist Lutheran liturgy; and even those minimal liturgies had grating conflicts. It drove the Lutherans crazy when the Anglicans recited the Collect of Purity aloud with the Pastor; and the Pastor resented having to have the epiclesis included in the consecration. Lutherans wanted to put the Bible on the altar, and the Anglicans wouldn't have it. Lutherans were used to bringing the children in to worship and having the education hour before the service; Anglicans weren't used to having the children in the service and felt their presence was disruptive (you know, babies cooing aloud just when someone was singing in tongues? )

Very few Anglican churches are like that one (and very few ELCIC churches are like ours, either) but even with the relatively close match in styles between the two, we needed to adapt a fair bit. Since we were guests who would be moving on, we did most of the adapting. Merging the two Sunday Schools was the one thing we did that I think was permanently harmful. We're still in a pretty good relationship with that Anglican church, but I think they probably breathed a sigh of relief when we moved into our own building, just as we did.

 

[BigNorsk]

But I couldn't help but think it is funny to think of a child as disrupting a bunch of charismatics.

I find it very disruptive for everyone to be mumbling (or even not mumbling) while someone is praying. Yet for some reason they seem to think it is a normal thing for everyone to speak at the same time. Makes it absolutely impossible for me to follow the prayer. I don't know where that came from, after all doesn't the Bible specifically say only one at a time is to speak? Try doing the same thing to your boss at work, I think it would be perceived as pretty rude there and it strikes me the same way in a worship service.

Just a pet peeve.

Marv

 

[KEPLER]

But I couldn't help but think it is funny to think of a child as disrupting a bunch of charismatics.

**grin**

I find it very disruptive for everyone to be mumbling (or even not mumbling) while someone is praying. Yet for some reason they seem to think it is a normal thing for everyone to speak at the same time. Makes it absolutely impossible for me to follow the prayer. I don't know where that came from, after all doesn't the Bible specifically say only one at a time is to speak? Try doing the same thing to your boss at work, I think it would be perceived as pretty rude there and it strikes me the same way in a worship service.

Just a pet peeve.

Marv

As an erstwhile Pentecostal myself, I can say (in agreement with both of you,I think) that the service practices of Charismatics is highly dubious. The odd thing is, that as people who believe in free will and decision theology, CHarismatics are fond of calling the Holy Spirit a "gentleman." But of course, all his "gentlemanly manners" fly out the door when it comes time to babble in Church...??? People interupt one another left and right. I once saw (in fact, this episode was when I called it quits with the Assemblies of God) a man leave the sanctuary in a huff, becasue people had continued to interupt him when he wanted to give a "word of knowledge". My 2 cents... Kepler

 

[SPALATIN]

**grin**
As an erstwhile Pentecostal myself, I can say (in agreement with both of you,I think) that the service practices of Charismatics is highly dubious. The odd thing is, that as people who believe in free will and decision theology, CHarismatics are fond of calling the Holy Spirit a "gentleman." But of course, all his "gentlemanly manners" fly out the door when it comes time to babble in Church...??? People interupt one another left and right. I once saw (in fact, this episode was when I called it quits with the Assemblies of God) a man leave the sanctuary in a huff, becasue people had continued to interupt him when he wanted to give a "word of knowledge". My 2 cents... Kepler

Kep,Since you come from a Pentecostal background perhaps you could give me a comparison contrast of Pentocostal and Charismatic theology. Are there stark differences between these two theologies or are they very close in nature to one another. Please give some details if you will.Scott