Either way, Trinity is Pagan.

[Drynwhyl]

We cannot fully grasp the concept of what the Trinity really is. The relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as ONE is well beyond our comprehension. I believe he has dumbed it down for us humans.

I now ask all of you:

WOULD YOU PUT YOUR FAITH INTO SOMETHING THAT YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND?

Why would God want us to not be able to comprehend the Trinity? And even if God WAS a Trinity, Why did he make the Jews, His chosen people, Unitarian in their beliefs?

 

[Hitokiri Shadow]

Good question. But just because we don't understand some aspects clearly is not a reason to not believe something.

I do not understand exactly what causes gravity to work (maybe if I took physics, that would have helped... but then again maybe not). However, I still believe that gravity is a real force.

 

[WiccanHeart]

In Wicca there are two trinities.

The Goddes: Maiden, Mother, Crone
The God:Son, Father, Sage

There are a lot of similiarties between Wicca and Christianity

 

[Radio-Free Gnosis]

The denial of Literalist Christians is astounding.

Yes, a lot of "pagan" beliefs and doctrines were incorporated into Christianity, the Trinity among them. This is well documented. Whoop-de-doo. Almost every religion borrows from earlier ones. It's not a new thing, and its not just a Christian thing.

Yes. Christianity borrowed from indiginous faiths (I think the word "pagan" is a stupid word to use to describe a religion). Islam borrowed from Judaism (which borrowed heavily from Zoroastranism and various Babylonian myth), Buddhism from Hinduism, Wicca from "the old ways" of Goddess-only-knows. "Modern" Satanism borrows from Thelema and the writings of Neitchze. Baha'i is like the fat guy at a smorgasbord, borrowing from everyone's plate (no offence intended to fat people).

get over it, and stop whining to the Christians for something everyone does.

 

[Blindfaith316]

Although Christians won’t admit it, the Trinity is not a new concept. The Egyptian sun god Ra had many a different form and name. The three most prominent ones are that of a dung beetle named Ra-Khefri which pushed the sun across the sky, a human form called Amon-Ra, which he used to head the Ennead [council of the gods], and Ra-Atum, the Creator which rose on a lotus flower out of the Waters of Chaos. All of Ra’s forms were of one god, yet all existed simultaneously. Most of you were expecting the Isis, Horus, Osiris Trinity, but Christians get around that Trinity by saying that they worship one god in three forms. So, Trinitarians, please tell me how your Trinity of ‘Three forms, One God’ differs from the pagan Trinity of Ra, which is also Three forms, One god.

actually I am a christian, and I hate the term trinity, it gives the impression that we worship three God's. God and Jesus are one, not two, Jesus is God manifested in the Spirit, and the Holy Spirit, (which manifests inside every christian believer) is just the presenceof the Lord,it isnt something to be worshipped. I think many christians place the emphasis away from God and it verges on idol worship. I hope that explained my position !

 

[Blindfaith316]

I now ask all of you:

WOULD YOU PUT YOUR FAITH INTO SOMETHING THAT YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND?

Why would God want us to not be able to comprehend the Trinity? And even if God WAS a Trinity, Why did he make the Jews, His chosen people, Unitarian in their beliefs?

I am gonna take a stab at this, I think that the term trinity (it is found nowhere in the bible) is a tool of Satan to deceive many, it is a HUGE stumbling block for people trying to understand christianity. I DO understand that God became flesh and died for me. The Jews rejected the messiah (they still are God's chosen people~and they still will receive the rewards that God has outlined for them in the Bible, the covenants he made with them still stand) The prophecies of messiah in the OT state that he (Christ) would be rejected by his own people, which he was.

God couldn't MAKE the Jews believe, he gave them the scripture's and very few saw the truth in them.

Not to sound rude, and I mean this with all due respect, but have you read the bible?

 

[Blindfaith316]

Hi all!

We (orthodox Jews) categorically reject the notion of a triune God as conceptually and semantically ill-disguised tritheism. Our great 9th century CE sage, Saadya Gaon (who lived in what is now Iraq, see http://tinyurl.com/3yjtd) said that to believe that God is triune is to define & limit Him by the physical concepts of quantity and number. To believe in a truly transcendant God (that is who transcends all physical constructs/concepts, including those of quantity & number), who is Wholly Other, one must believe that He is One. Since He created all things corporeal, He Himself cannot be, or have been at one time, corporeal; to believe otherwise, Saadya Gaon taught, is to define Him by, & limit Him to, the corporeal form that he presumably chose. I have heard many Christians use the analogy that the three "persons" of the trinity are all one the same way that I, ferinstance, am a father to my boys, a husband to my wife, a son to my parents & a brother to my brother. I would reply that this is a human analogy & as such, it cannot be applied to a transcendant, wholly other, God. The same goes for the ice-water-steam analogy. H20 is a created, physical, corporeal thing & as such, cannot be applied to a transcendant, wholly other, God. The uniqueness of One is that it presumes no self-division. Like the smallest whole number that it, in fact, is, it cannot be broken down into constituent parts. Whereas 3 = 1 + 1+ 1, 1 (simply) = 1; it is in this sense that 1 is transcendant in a way that 3 is not. We believe that the Oneness of God is unbounded both internally & externally.

My personal view is that the early Christians found the (originally) Jewish concept of a transcendant, wholly other God too difficult to grasp and recast Him in our image, i.e. they made Him flesh & gave Him our form and made Him much easier to relate to. It seems to me that this is paganism with a (superficial) non-pagan veneer. (I mean no offense to anyone, God forbid!)

Be well!

ssv

No offense taken!!! actually I agree that the term trinity is wrong, to limit God to only three. I still view God as wholly, and transendant. But does it not say that we WERE made in HIS image, in Genesis? Therfor, our Father, who created us, is easy to relate to, and revere.

God Bless!
Jessica

 

[transientlife]

So, Trinitarians, please tell me how your Trinity of ‘Three forms, One God’ differs from the pagan Trinity of Ra, which is also Three forms, One god.

The only difference I would think would be the God that the trinity refers to (that is, assuming there are multiple gods). The triune idea isn't the only thing Christianity 'stole' from pagan religions (which I think is pretty common knowledge) and if Christian's were to shun every pagan-related thing in the faith, there'd not be much celebration since so much of it coincides with something from, as another poster put it, those "indigenous" religions.

Let everyone have their trinity, I'll practice mine and they can practice theirs, no big deal.

 

[peaceful soul]

Re OP: you have to prove that the people who created the Trinitarian doctrine actually borrowed the ideas. If they were original from their minds, then there is no borrowing. It is possible to conceptualize the same as another without borrowing from them.

Honestly, I do not think that there was any borrowing, because the scope of the subject was Biblical - not secular. If I read the Bible, I could probably come up with a near identical analysis without consulting anyone else. This would make my view as original to me.

 

[MQTA]

get over it, and stop whining to the Christians for something everyone does.

Maybe it's the claims that are made that are different than All others?

 

[crystalpc]

Although Christians won’t admit it, the Trinity is not a new concept. The Egyptian sun god Ra had many a different form and name. The three most prominent ones are that of a dung beetle named Ra-Khefri which pushed the sun across the sky, a human form called Amon-Ra, which he used to head the Ennead [council of the gods], and Ra-Atum, the Creator which rose on a lotus flower out of the Waters of Chaos. All of Ra’s forms were of one god, yet all existed simultaneously. Most of you were expecting the Isis, Horus, Osiris Trinity, but Christians get around that Trinity by saying that they worship one god in three forms. So, Trinitarians, please tell me how your Trinity of ‘Three forms, One God’ differs from the pagan Trinity of Ra, which is also Three forms, One god.

Big .. almost to a snooze. satan knew God from the beginning, and he counterfiets who he is, and what he does from the beginning of his creation, he was a created being satan that is.
This is no surprise to anyone who knows history, and the scripture. Just shows that the bible is right satan had his roots in heaven..before he was kicked out to plague mankind.

 

[Arthra]

Essentially I think the doctrine of the trinity developed over time and is a Christian doctrine based on understanding of scriptural passages. There are "trinities" in different religions... in Hinduism there is a trimurti... Mahayana Buddhism has a trinitarian concept of a sort but I think the Christian concept derives from itself.

It also doesn't in my view negate monotheism if you understand it as an attempt to explain aspects of the Divine...

So you have a recognition of God, the Holy Spirit and the Son or Jesus Christ... that can also I think from scripture be understood as recognizing God as Source and Omnipotent Reality... the Holy Spirit as the rays of that Reality and being perfectly reflected in Jesus Christ.

Some while ago I think I wrote somewhere in this Forum that aspects of the trinity can be found in the Qur'an as well as the Bible.

When an understanding of God becomes though a doctrine that is enforced some problems develope as some Christians had other understandings and so on...and there grew conflicts and divisions within the Church...so penalties were devised against those who differed or had other ideas and they were charged with heresy.

In the old days when you were labelled a heretic, it could mean you were in for some pretty serious consequences that could directly affect your "health and well being."

The Baha'i view of trinity was explained by Abdul-Baha as follows:

"So the Reality of Christ was a clear and polished mirror of the greatest purity and fineness. The Sun of Reality, the Essence of Divinity, reflected itself in this mirror and manifested its light and heat in it; but from the exaltation of its holiness, and the heaven of its sanctity, the Sun did not descend to dwell and abide in the mirror. No, it continues to subsist in its exaltation and sublimity, while appearing and becoming manifest in the mirror in beauty and perfection. ...The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ."

- Art

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Jessica posted:

But does it not say that we WERE made in HIS image, in Genesis?

Yes.

Therfor, our Father, who created us, is easy to relate to, and revere.

Correct, and Jews were relating to Him (as a Unity) for over 1,200+ years before, and 2,000 years after, some felt the need to resort to all sorts of spiritual/theological/semantical/conceptual three-in-one/three-is-one gymnastics. Instead of seeing us as having been created in His image, those who believe that God has/had a physical body and can be defined by a parent-child paradigm, are recasting Him in our image; this is paganism.

Be well!

ssv

 

[Blindfaith316]

Thankyou for replying~ Do you believe that Jesus ever existed? or that he was a false prophet? (just trying to get a grasp of where you stand here..)

In Zechariah 12:10, we have God 'speaking', Zec 12:10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.


What then of the first Christians, who were Jews, who saw and believed that Christ was messiah? What of the many many fulfilled prophecies?

 

[MQTA]

...

What then of the first Christians, who were Jews, who saw and believed that Christ was messiah? What of the many many fulfilled prophecies?

I've been trying to read about these many many fulfilled prophecies, but every reference I find says they were not fulfilled. Some claims in the NT about them being described in the OT don't show any references in the OT to them, and the ones that do some people show to be unrelated or inaccurate.

So my jury is still out on these prophecies.

 

[crystalpc]

I've been trying to read about these many many fulfilled prophecies, but every reference I find says they were not fulfilled. Some claims in the NT about them being described in the OT don't show any references in the OT to them, and the ones that do some people show to be unrelated or inaccurate.

So my jury is still out on these prophecies.

They are there, and are being fulfilled even as we live, and society winds down. One of them that is really stark, is the upside down way that society views good and evil. In the last days, good will be thought evil, and evil good. That is where we are today. I have seen it in my own lifetime. .

 

[peaceful soul]

They are there, and are being fulfilled even as we live, and society winds down. One of them that is really stark, is the upside down way that society views good and evil. In the last days, good will be thought evil, and evil good. That is where we are today. I have seen it in my own lifetime. .

MQTA is looking for references that he can read and validate.

 

[crystalpc]

MQTA is looking for references that he can read and validate.

Isa 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Isa 5:15 And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled:

Isa 5:16 But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.

Isa 5:17 Then shall the lambs feed after their manner, and the waste places of the fat ones shall strangers eat.

Isa 5:18 Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart rope:

Isa 5:19 That say, Let him make speed, and hasten his work, that we may see it: and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw nigh and come, that we may know it!

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Isa 5:21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

Isa 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:

Isa 5:23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

 

[peaceful soul]

I hate to presume too much, but MQTA will need to see how those verses are traced through Bible to arrive at the actual fulfillment. i.e., the verse has to point to other verses and also show the fulfilment of the original verse in a circular manner. I hope that I am clear. As stated, there is no way for MQTA to see their fulfillment. This is highly important to those who may not know Bible very well.

Honestly, the ones that you have quoted are not that telling. They can naturally be applied to almost any era. You need to show some things that are definitive.

 

[crystalpc]

I hate to presume too much, but MQTA will need to see how those verses are traced through Bible to arrive at the actual fulfillment. i.e., the verse has to point to other verses and also show the fulfilment of the original verse in a circular manner. I hope that I am clear. As stated, there is no way for MQTA to see their fulfillment. This is highly important to those who may not know Bible very well.

Honestly, the ones that you have quoted are not that telling. They can naturally be applied to almost any era. You need to show some things that are definitive.

I can see your point. I usually just ask people to go to my testimony page, and they can see scriptures fulfilled in my own life.
In the meantime I will keep searching the scriptures. I don't have the reference to these scriptures on my computer, but I do have some great books on word studies.