Either be quiverfull or live in totaly abstinence

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I found this quote:

...although the Church always permitted a childless couple to continue to live together as man and wife, if a wife was barren or a husband was impotent, it was accepted by the Church as grounds for divorce, so that either would be free to enter into a marriage relationship with another, in the hope of having children.
Nowadays, of course, our society considers children more of a nuisance than a blessing, and many couples wait one, two, three, or even more years before they have a child. Indeed, some decide never to have children. And so, although in the Orthodox Church the first purpose of marriage is not merely to have children, the desire of most young marrieds today to wait before having children is considered sinful. As a priest, I must say to any couple that approaches me for marriage that, if they are not prepared and willing to conceive and bear a child, without interfering with the will of God by means of artificial birth control, then they are not ready to be married. If they are not prepared to accept the natural and blessed fruit of their union—that is, a child—then it is clear that their primary purpose in marrying is to have legalized fornication. This is a very serious problem today, possibly the most serious and the most difficult a priest has to deal with when counselling a young couple.
I've used the term "artificial" birth control because I want to point out that the Church does permit the use of certain natural methods for avoiding conception, but these methods may not be used without the knowledge and blessing of the priest, and only if the physical and moral well-being of the family demands it. These methods are acceptable to the Church under the right circumstances and can be used by a couple without burdening their consciences, because they are "ascetical" methods; that is, they have to do with self-denial, self-control. Those methods are three:
1. Total abstinence. In very pious families this is not at all as uncommon, either today or yesterday, as one might think. It often happens that after an Orthodox husband and wife have brought a number of children into this world, they agree to abstain from one another, both for spiritual and worldly reasons, living the rest of their lives in peace and harmony as brother and sister. This has happened in the lives of saints—most notably in the life of Saint John of Kronstadt. As a Church which very much cherishes and protects monastic life, we Orthodox have no fear of celibacy, and no silly ideas about how we will not be fulfilled or happy if we cease to have sexual activity with our spouse.
2. A limitation on sexual relations. This of course already happens with the Orthodox couple that sincerely tries to observe fully all of the fast days and fasting periods of the year.
3. Finally, the Church allows the use of the so-called "rhythm" or the more recently developed Natural Family Planning method, about which ample information is available today.
In former times, when poor parents knew nothing about contraceptions, they relied exclusively on God's will—and this should in fact be an example for us today. Children were born and they accepted the last one just as they had the first, saying, "God gave the child; He will also give what we need for the child." Such was their faith, and it often happened that the last child proved to be the greatest blessing of all.
Now, what about the size of a family? Well, one thing that has a tremendous affect on how we view this is the fact that over the last one hundred years we have changed from a mostly agrarian or agricultural society, to a mostly urban and industrial society. This means that whereas in previous times large families were actually needed in order to run the farm or ranch—and there was always enough food and work to go around—today we have the opposite problem, and it is sometimes very difficult to support a very large family, although there are people who manage to do it. From a strictly spiritual point of view, one should try to have a large family so that the family will be strong and durable and full of love, with all of its members bearing the burdens of life together. A large family accustoms children to being concerned about others, makes them more sensitive, etc. And while a small family might be able to provide more of this world's goods for each child, a small family does not at all guarantee a good upbringing. Single children are sometimes the most difficult of all, for they often grow up spoiled and self-centered. No general rule can be given about this here, but we should be prepared and expect to have as many children as God will send and the moral and physical health of the mother and the family as a whole will allow, always staying in close touch with one's priest on these matters.

Source: Orthodox Info



A couple of thoughts.


1) Good Lord, how horrible to give ground for divorce over bareness! Imagine a wife's inner struggle as her husband (who promised to endure with her through anything) leaves her because her own body has failed her (imagine how she must feel about herself). Good Lord people, just adopt! No need to break hearts it's not her fault or his fault if they're barren!


2) So, not only is it sinful for me to not want children...it's sinful for me to not want them right away? I can't even adjust to just being married first?!


3) Somewhere out there, right now...two people are probably having sex. Does this disturb you as well? Why not just admit it's for procreation only instead of wearing ballay slippers around the issue. How many fast days are in a year btw? What is it like 200 or something? Imagine every three days before Communion, every day of Communion, every Wednesday & Friday, every Major Feast Day...etc.


4) Big family = love, small family = coldness. Ugh..I don't even know where to begin. Is it right to judge the moral state of a family, just because of it's size? Can we safely assume that any kid who doesn't grow up with at least 6 other siblings is doomed to live a life of depravity? Is the moral fabric of a family totally dependent not on the quality but on the quantity of it's members?
"A large family accustoms children to being concerned about others, makes them more sensitive, etc." Notice...we are referred to no study.


Right...there's some of my pointers about the whole, quiver full or celibate debate. What are yours? Is it okay to at least wait before having kids in a marriage? Is it not okay to call divorce when you and your spouse enter into disagreement but okay to divorce over something your spouse has no control over (bareness)? Is it right to demand that all married couples have sex roughly once a week or less and only on Church approved days (rather than working around the couples own schedule (suppose one spouse is in the military and comes home during Great Lent)).

 

[icxn]

If we dedicated more time in prayer, all these issues, diabolic dispositions, false questions and perplexing thoughts would go away. The Lord would transform us into "angels" and these insignificant matters would be completely foreign to us... but we choose to deal with them critically and with dialectic... what a waste of time!

Have a blessed feast of the Dormition of the Ever-Virgin Mary.
icxn

 

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If we dedicated more time in prayer, all these issues, diabolic dispositions, false questions and perplexing thoughts would go away. The Lord would transform us into "angels" and these insignificant matters would be completely foreign to us... but we choose to deal with them critically and with dialectic... what a waste of time!

Have a blessed feast of the Dormition of the Ever-Virgin Mary.
icxn

Wow what an insightful answer! Thanks for sharing!

Oh & btw, we were created to be higher than the angles. Now of course, we're some where between the angels...and the French.

 

[icxn]

Wow what an insightful answer! Thanks for sharing!

Quote:

After Bankei had passed away, a blind man who lived near the master's temple told a friend:

"Since I am blind, I cannot watch a person's face, so I must judge his character by the sound of his voice. Ordinarily when I hear someone congratulate another upon his happiness or success, I also hear a secret tone of envy. When condolence is expressed for the misfortune of another, I hear pleasure and satisfaction, as if the one condoling was really glad there was something left to gain in his own world.

"In all my experience, however, Bankei's voice was always sincere. Whenever he expressed happiness, I heard nothing but happiness, and whenever he expressed sorrow, sorrow was all I heard." - Zen Koan
​

I'm afraid to say that you do not sound like a Bankei to me but given my "blindness" I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Oh & btw, we were created to be higher than the angles. Now of course, we're some where between the angels...and the French.

Quote:

A student of Tendai, a philosophical school of Buddhism, came to the Zen abode of Gasan as a pupil. When he was departing a few years later, Gasan warned him: "Studying the truth speculatively is useful as a way of collecting preaching material. But remember that unless you meditate (pray) constantly (and practice the philosophy) your light of truth may go out." - Adapted from a Zen Koan
​

You seem like a very well educated man - your responses indicate so, - I wish you also become an educated angel (and higher like you say) as well, by living a pure life as they do. The later I offer as an advice/wish since you confess to be in want (French?).


God bless,
icxn

 

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The first thing I said to be friendly and I do think you have a point. We need stop making so many "rules" with which to bind everyone and just let The Holy Spirit guide us. After all, each situation is different and what works for one, may not work for another (such is often the fault of secular law and The Church is not to be a secular institution). Thankfully we have a SF who can use discernment in what is best for each person instead of coming up with one single standard and then holding all to it.


The second thing I said was a homage to Mark Twain. However, if it'd been my way, I would've said the Russians.

 

[joyfulthanks]

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