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Egalitarianism..

Chesterton

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Well, if I've understood you correctly, there was no differentiation in study or employment. But you seem to think there were distinct roles for men and women. So what was the distinction, and how was it maintained?
As I said before, people do what they want to do. Back in the '90's when Bill Clinton was president-elect here, a reporter asked his wife Hillary something about what her role as First Lady would be. She said something to the effect of "Well I'm not going to stay home and bake cookies" which was just a horrible answer for two reasons. The pertinent reason here is that she insulted millions of women who want to stay home and bake cookies. If you want to be a scientist, fine, be one if you're capable, but if you want to be a housewife, that's perfectly fine too.
 
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Paidiske

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As I said before, people do what they want to do.
So are you saying that in fact, there were no gender roles? There were no gendered limits or obligations as obvious as the sky being blue or the grass green?
 
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Chesterton

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So are you saying that in fact, there were no gender roles?
You'd have to define for me what a gender role is.
There were no gendered limits or obligations as obvious as the sky being blue or the grass green?
Legally, there are no limits or obligations here, other than men couldn't use women's restrooms, but that has somewhat changed in recent years.
 
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Paidiske

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You'd have to define for me what a gender role is.
I would describe a gender role as expectations, obligations, limitations, or the like, which differ for boys and girls, men and women. Or the package which is the sum of all those gendered expectations, obligations, limitations and so on.

For example, the idea that cooking is a woman's job is a gender role. The idea that "providing" is a man's job is a gender role. The idea that women can wear make up (and in some situations are required to) but men can't (except perhaps in very specific circumstances), is a gender role. And so on.
Legally, there are no limits or obligations here, other than men couldn't use women's restrooms, but that has somewhat changed in recent years.
I don't think OP is talking about legally; more about what was normalised and idealised in your family.

For example, when my daughter was about three, and for the first time since her birth I was working more than my husband and he was doing more of the domestic stuff, my mother-in-law made her judgement keenly felt.

Are you saying you saw no such gendered judgement?
 
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Tigran1245

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If you are a person who does not subscribe to egalitarianism, feel free to also post in this thread. Especially if you grew up in a liberal environment and felt like your stances were natural or have some other interesting back story. I cannot say the same for other posters, but I will probably not feel an urge to respond in anger. Instead, I am just genuinely curious how others view the world.
In my opinion, it is quite obvious that there are gender roles. Several arguments in favor of this position:

1. The difference between genders in itself implies different features that define certain functions. If the roles of men and women are the same, there would be no point in distinguishing between the genders. God created bacteria that reproduce by division. If He wanted, He would have created man the same way.
2. Gender roles are clearly visible when we study the animal world. The behavior and lifestyle of males and females differ in mammals, fish, and even insects. Why shouldn't they differ in humans?

Women are by nature less prudent than men. On average, they are less rational and more emotional, it is more difficult for them to make important and responsible decisions. That is why there are far fewer female politicians than male politicians. On average, women receive lower salaries in some areas than men. And this is not about discrediting, but simply because women are by nature worse at some jobs. Therefore, the invisible hand of the market rightly values their work less than that of men. Due to these characteristics, in a family, a man is naturally given by God the power to make final decisions, and women find themselves in a position of subordination.

On the other hand, men lack the emotional intelligence that women possess. A father will not give, or will give with great difficulty, that warmth and special love, that special attitude that a mother shows to a child. It is a woman who is the "soul" of the family, not a man. Without a woman, happiness is impossible. She is called to be beautiful: a man, on average, pays much less attention to his appearance than a woman. And, of course, a woman can give birth, but a man cannot.

Thus, I believe that men and women are equal only in human nature. But they differ in their gender roles. However, this does not mean that one of them is better.

Why do some people advocate the sameness of gender roles?

The sin of pride is an attempt to present yourself as better than you really are. Thus, an attempt by women to ascribe a male role to themselves is pride. Eve became proud in the Garden of Eden because she wanted to have power over Adam. And for this she was punished by God. The same sin is committed by masculine women who "defend their rights".

On the other hand, Adam, instead of stopping Eve, believed her. And then tried to shift the blame onto her. The same mistake is made by men who stop thinking about their family. And because of their egoism and weakness, they become indifferent to family matters and the woman, out of necessity, takes power into her own hands.
 
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Paidiske

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Women are by nature less prudent than men. On average, they are less rational and more emotional, it is more difficult for them to make important and responsible decisions.
What a load of sexist guff.
On the other hand, men lack the emotional intelligence that women possess. A father will not give, or will give with great difficulty, that warmth and special love, that special attitude that a mother shows to a child. It is a woman who is the "soul" of the family, not a man. Without a woman, happiness is impossible. She is called to be beautiful: a man, on average, pays much less attention to his appearance than a woman.
Also sexist guff.
Eve became proud in the Garden of Eden because she wanted to have power over Adam.
This is nowhere in the actual Scripture.

Stories of power-over do appear in Scripture. In the accounts of slavery, for example; Abram to Sarai, "Your slave-girl is in your power; do to her as you please." But that is never commended as good and right, much less in marriage.
 
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Robban

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You'd have to define for me what a gender role is.

Legally, there are no limits or obligations here, other than men couldn't use women's restrooms, but that has somewhat changed in recent years.

Father, mother are two, in as much as a man cannot give birth but a woman can.

They two are set in stone.

Man and woman are equal but different.

Though personally I think women take the cake.

Consider candle lighting at the latest 18 minutes before sundown to bring Shabbat is the role of the female.

We are in the Friday afternoon of history, soon will be a new era and will brought in by............?
 
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Tigran1245

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What a load of sexist guff.

Also sexist guff.
The fact that instead of logically refuting my words, you insult me, just demonstrates your emotional nature as a woman.

Stories of power-over do appear in Scripture. In the accounts of slavery, for example; Abram to Sarai, "Your slave-girl is in your power; do to her as you please." But that is never commended as good and right, much less in marriage.
"Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, ... For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror. Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel" (1Pet.3:1,5-7).

Apostle Peter says directly that women should submit to men. But men, as those in authority, should treat their wives wisely. There is no talk of "mutual submission."

Paul says the same:

"But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God" (1Cor.11:3).

"For man is not from woman, but woman from man. Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head" (1Cor.11:8-10).

These verses cannot be interpreted in any other way than as the submission of the wife to her husband. Otherwise, the absolute authority, universality, infallibility, and inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must be questioned.
 
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Tigran1245

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This is nowhere in the actual Scripture.
Divine interpreters always saw Eve's desire to be higher than Adam.

St. Ephrem the Syrian (†373)
"She [Eve] hastened to taste her husband before him, in order to become the head of him who was her head, to become the mistress of him from whom she had to receive orders"
 
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Paidiske

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The fact that instead of logically refuting my words, you insult me,
I'm not insulting you. I'm characterising your argument as baseless and biased.

If - for example - you want to claim that women are less prudent than men, you'd have to actually demonstrate it. However, you'll be hard pressed to do so, given that (for example) men are known to be, on average, more given to risky behaviour than women.

However, I suggest that you stick to arguing the point, rather than the person, if you wish to stay within CF's rules on flaming and goading.
There is no talk of "mutual submission."
The apostles acknowledge the legal and social hierarchies of their society. But within those structures, they urge spouses to live in mutual love, care, and, yes, submission. The submission of wives finds its place within submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. (Ephesians 5:21).

St. Ephrem the Syrian (†373)
"She [Eve] hastened to taste her husband before him, in order to become the head of him who was her head, to become the mistress of him from whom she had to receive orders"
Which is speculative, and not Scriptural.

One might be tempted to question why some men seem so afraid of women they can't control.
 
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Rose_bud

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As I said, I grew up in a conservative religious family with Paulian prescribed gender roles. What I didn't say is when approaching retirement age, my dad had a stroke requiring him to spend the rest of his life in long term care. For the first time in her life, my mom was on her own. She had choice and made decisions. She appeared to quite enjoy it. I always thought it appeared as if a burden of sorts had been lifted from her.
:wave:
I actually found this different with my mom. When my dad passed, my mom stayed with us. She would still not make her own choices, she would constantly want approval that she could. At times I would have to outright remind her that she can do whatever she thinks is best for her to do. It was actually a bit sad to witness. Thankfully she is much more independent now and loving the fact that the only voice she has to "obey" is Jesus.
 
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Tigran1245

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If - for example - you want to claim that women are less prudent than men, you'd have to actually demonstrate it. However, you'll be hard pressed to do so, given that (for example) men are known to be, on average, more given to risky behaviour than women.
Risky behavior is precisely the ability to make difficult decisions and take responsibility. Therefore, it is precisely characteristic of men. Or what do you mean by risky behavior?
The apostles acknowledge the legal and social hierarchies of their society.
In this way you deprive the Scripture of universality for all times. For this you need serious justification, and not your personal desires or trends in society.

In order to justify something, you need the right method. Without a method - there will simply be an unproven opinion. And everyone will be able to say whatever they want about the Bible.

My method as an Orthodox Christian is the interpretation of Scripture through the Tradition of the Church. What is your method that proves your interpretation?
But within those structures, they urge spouses to live in mutual love, care, and, yes, submission. The submission of wives finds its place within submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. (Ephesians 5:20).
Mutual love - yes. But there is no place in Scripture where a husband submits to his wife. If a wife asks for something and the husband fulfills it - this is not submission. Just as if God fulfills our request - this does not mean that God submits to us. Submission is power over someone.
Which is speculative, and not Scriptural.

One might be tempted to question why some men seem so afraid of women they can't control.
Above I wrote that just as Adam was weak and irresponsible because he blamed Eve, so modern men begin to fear women because of their [men] weakness. And this weakness turns men either into passive lazy people or into domestic despots.
 
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Robban

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Divine interpreters always saw Eve's desire to be higher than Adam.

St. Ephrem the Syrian (†373)
"She [Eve] hastened to taste her husband before him, in order to become the head of him who was her head, to become the mistress of him from whom she had to receive orders"

Risky behavior is precisely the ability to make difficult decisions and take responsibility. Therefore, it is precisely characteristic of men. Or what do you mean by risky behavior?

In this way you deprive the Scripture of universality for all times. For this you need serious justification, and not your personal desires or trends in society.

In order to justify something, you need the right method. Without a method - there will simply be an unproven opinion. And everyone will be able to say whatever they want about the Bible.

My method as an Orthodox Christian is the interpretation of Scripture through the Tradition of the Church. What is your method that proves your interpretation?

Mutual love - yes. But there is no place in Scripture where a husband submits to his wife. If a wife asks for something and the husband fulfills it - this is not submission. Just as if God fulfills our request - this does not mean that God submits to us. Submission is power over someone.

Above I wrote that just as Adam was weak and irresponsible because he blamed Eve, so modern men begin to fear women because of their [men] weakness. And this weakness turns men either into passive lazy people or into domestic despots.

Adam was over protective, Eve was not around when Adam was told not to eat of the fruit of the tree in the midst of the garden.

The serpent fancied her so he started a conversation with her,

3:3, "You shall not eat of it, and you shall not touch it lest you die." said Eve.

Where did she get the "don´t touch"from if not from Adam, Proverbs 30:6 "Do not add to His words"

In any case it was all going for the serpent, the serpent pushed her so she touched the tree,

and there came no bolt of lightning, so she ate of the fruit, still no lightning.

Adam ate of it too. and he lived almost a thousand years.

Thereof, for the Almighty a thousand years is a day.

Check it out.
 
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Tigran1245

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Adam was over protective, Eve was not around when Adam was told not to eat of the fruit of the tree in the midst of the garden.

The serpent fancied her so he started a conversation with her,

3:3, "You shall not eat of it, and you shall not touch it lest you die." said Eve.

Where did she get the "don´t touch"from if not from Adam, Proverbs 30:6 "Do not add to His words"
She made it up herself. Therefore, we can rightly call Eve the first heretic, because she was the first to distort the Word of God.
In any case it was all going for the serpent, the serpent pushed her so she touched the tree,

and there came no bolt of lightning, so she ate of the fruit, still no lightning.
Eve lost God's grace and sinned not at the moment of touching the tree, but as soon as the thought of sin appeared in her mind.
Adam ate of it too. and he lived almost a thousand years.

Thereof, for the Almighty a thousand years is a day.

Check it out.
Adam and his descendants lived long because the body gradually became corruptible and distorted, not instantly.
 
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Sif

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As a woman who does many things traditionally not considered "feminine" or "lady-like" I find these arguments quite amusing.

As a bit of background; I enjoy martial arts (more Historical European Martial Arts - AKA HEMA), I hunt, I practice and train with firearms, I enjoy wilderness camping/hiking/journeys, etc. In doing these things it becomes quite obvious men, the vast majority of the time, are stronger than women.

In a society with only primitive to early industrial tech there's going to be a need for division of labor and the logical way is based on sex. Look at various cultures/societies across history, Christian and non-Christian. The vast majority of the time there are roles that are frequently assigned by sex/gender. I do get a chuckle out of the "strong female characters" in modern films. Looking at those Barbie-doll actresses trying to act strong and tough is just silly. I could likely break them in two in a real fight.

Having said that I am also amused by the "macho-man" attitude I frequently see from Christian men. Trying to act pompous and overbearing with their fat guts hanging over their belts and intellects below that of a capuchin monkey. I've had my share of negative encounters with Christian men trying to act like they were my superior. The two times in my life I was physically threatened it was Christian men who were the threat. Fortunately both time it turned out extremely poorly for them.

I think egalitarianism is an excellent concept. Having said that, women and girls should not look to modern movies and think the silly "strong female characters" are anywhere close to reality. I also do not buy into the intellectually stunted views of so called Traditional/Conservative Christians. But, I do believe they (Traditional/Conservative Christians) have an absolute right to hold those intellectually stunted views and opinions.
 
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Robban

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She made it up herself. Therefore, we can rightly call Eve the first heretic, because she was the first to distort the Word of God.

Eve lost God's grace and sinned not at the moment of touching the tree, but as soon as the thought of sin appeared in her mind.

Adam and his descendants lived long because the body gradually became corruptible and distorted, not instantly.

Hardly any substance in what you have written.
 
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Robban

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As a woman who does many things traditionally not considered "feminine" or "lady-like" I find these arguments quite amusing.

As a bit of background; I enjoy martial arts (more Historical European Martial Arts - AKA HEMA), I hunt, I practice and train with firearms, I enjoy wilderness camping/hiking/journeys, etc. In doing these things it becomes quite obvious men, the vast majority of the time, are stronger than women.

In a society with only primitive to early industrial tech there's going to be a need for division of labor and the logical way is based on sex. Look at various cultures/societies across history, Christian and non-Christian. The vast majority of the time there are roles that are frequently assigned by sex/gender. I do get a chuckle out of the "strong female characters" in modern films. Looking at those Barbie-doll actresses trying to act strong and tough is just silly. I could likely break them in two in a real fight.

Having said that I am also amused by the "macho-man" attitude I frequently see from Christian men. Trying to act pompous and overbearing with their fat guts hanging over their belts and intellects below that of a capuchin monkey. I've had my share of negative encounters with Christian men trying to act like they were my superior. The two times in my life I was physically threatened it was Christian men who were the threat. Fortunately both time it turned out extremely poorly for them.

I think egalitarianism is an excellent concept. Having said that, women and girls should not look to modern movies and think the silly "strong female characters" are anywhere close to reality. I also do not buy into the intellectually stunted views of so called Traditional/Conservative Christians. But, I do believe they (Traditional/Conservative Christians) have an absolute right to hold those intellectually stunted views and opinions.

Women make better snipers something that became apparent during the last great war on the Russian side.

Needless to say not all women, but everyone is good at something, the good side of everyone should be elevated.
 
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Sif

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Women make better snipers something that became apparent during the last great war on the Russian side.

Needless to say not all women, but everyone is good at something, the good side of everyone should be elevated.

True. I did a cross wilderness trek with a team of people. Camp work was divided based on skill expertise. Land navigation and movement from one camp location to the next also had a division of labor based on skills.
 
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Sif

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Off topic, but fits in with cross wilderness trips, and my dark sense of humor:

images
 
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