efficacy of the blood of Jesus Christ

oihebom

Member
Nov 8, 2003
9
1
Visit site
✟119.00
Faith
Christian
In the Old Testament there was no atonement for presumptous sin. i.e Sins commited with full knowledge of the word and commandment from God.

My question is this, in the New Testament is there atonement for presumptous sin in Jesus Christ ? Hebrews 6 and 10 are quire scary and speak of the impossibility of repenting after commiting such sins
 

yod

the wandering goy
Sep 6, 2003
1,521
12
Dallas, TX
Visit site
✟1,749.00
Faith
Messianic
This is the 64 Million Dollar question. I don't speak for anyone but myself when I say this;


Which sins did His blood not pay for?


IF I have to rely on my righteousness to get me into the kingdom, then I am lost already. If I have no regard for the blood He shed on my behalf, then do I really even know Him?

This is one area where I have to trust that He will forgive me whenever I ask. I can't worry about other people. My sin is my responsibility to repent for.


as I get older in the Lord, His mercy is what amazes most...and you know what Psalm 118 says?
 
Upvote 0

oihebom

Member
Nov 8, 2003
9
1
Visit site
✟119.00
Faith
Christian
So God can forgive me ? Because I met the Lord dramatically as a 20yr old student and served for a few years amidst intense persecution and oppression from family ( catholic ) etc etc.

I waned in my love for God for over 10 years and paid dearly for backsliding, so much guilt and shame and sadness becos nothing in the world meant a dime to me except jesus. Now I am returning and restored but I keep having thoughts of ' suppose he has not forgiven me , though i prayed earnestly for repentance ' since I commited those sins in full knowledge of the truth.

One day while I was at work a word sprang to my heart ' it is not him that wills or runs but God that showeth mercy '.

still I doubt and battle especially since my sins where really terrible ones, fornication and adultery.

Who will deliver me from this body of death
 
Upvote 0

SonWorshipper

Old Timer
Jan 15, 2002
2,840
31
✟10,769.00
Faith
Messianic
oihebom, All have fallen short, and not one of us is righteous. WE all have filthy rags that the blood washes clean and our sins are remembered no more by our loving G-d. You have made Teshuvah, which is not just repentance, but turning away from it and moving towards and onto the path the L-rd haws shown you. The Accuser is the one who will nag you with those thoughts and make you ineffective as mcuh as he can for the kingdom of G-d by making you feel unworthy. Don't let him do that to you, especially now, the time is short and the harvest is ripe and the L-rd needs lots of workers. If you are living under this pendulum of fear then you cannot be of help to Him who needs you.


You said that your sins were really terrible ones, let me ask you are they greater or lesser than murder? greater or lesser than stealing, greater or lesser than.............fill in the blank. The L-rd views anger at someone the same as if you had murdered them, so? See?

Well the answer is that no one sin is greater than another. Yeshua even told us it would be forgiven one for denying him, but the only unforgiveable sin is denying the Holy Spirit. Now from what you have said here the Holy Spirit convicted you of your sin and you recognized it and repented and turned from it and have come back to your love, the L-rd.

So have you denyed the Holy Spirit?
:hug: Stop beating yourself up and walk in the light that the L-rd views you in, as a redeemed child of His that He loves and has forgiven.
 
Upvote 0

oihebom

Member
Nov 8, 2003
9
1
Visit site
✟119.00
Faith
Christian
Thanks for your reply.

I will put those thoughts behind me and move forward.

I really do believe that the second coming is very imminent , thus the increasing chaos in the world, esp in the middle east, where I believe that God ( as he said in ezeikel) will draw all nations to israel for battle and judgement and will deal mightily with them.

I only pray that I will partake of the marriage supper of the lamb, may God help me and us, all of us. amen

Thanks once again
 
Upvote 0

Andre

Bondservent of Christ
Oct 25, 2003
691
205
43
Richmond, VA
Visit site
✟1,847.00
Faith
Baptist
I want to sit by you guys at the supper!!!

I'm just really thankfull that G-d has placed me in a Missions oriented Church, it's a 2 year old Church and we have 60 members, today by the grace of G-d our first mission trip team of 9 member including the pastor returned from Istambul,Turkey after spending 9 days in a 99.9% muslim Country. Good stuff.
 
Upvote 0

yod

the wandering goy
Sep 6, 2003
1,521
12
Dallas, TX
Visit site
✟1,749.00
Faith
Messianic
oihebom said:
Thanks for your reply.

I will put those thoughts behind me and move forward.
I only pray that I will partake of the marriage supper of the lamb, may God help me and us, all of us. amen

Thanks once again

That sounds like a saint if I've ever heard one.

I like to say that if someone could lose their salvation then I lost mine in 1995. I don't understand all the theological gobbledegook...but I know His mercy truly endures forever.

Welcome back home brother...

Our Father has killed the fatted calf for a feast in YOUR honor!

:yum: Yum!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

sojeru

just a Jew
Mar 22, 2003
870
21
41
USA
Visit site
✟1,145.00
Faith
Judaism
I was actually thinking that Oihebom was looking for something much more.
I thought he was in search for the GREAT security and Power-- but I guess you guys had supplied him with something I really dont think he was looking for.
A hungry man finds anything and is satisfied (esau).
Well, as long as he is satisfied right???
 
Upvote 0

YatzivPatgam

Active Member
Oct 17, 2003
225
8
41
Jerusalem
Visit site
✟15,405.00
Faith
Judaism
oihebom said:
In the Old Testament there was no atonement for presumptous sin. i.e Sins commited with full knowledge of the word and commandment from God.
This statement is in error. Intentional sin can only be atoned for through repentance, unaccompanied by a blood sacrifice (Psalms 32:5, 51:16-19). This is re-enforced: "And you shall call upon Me, and go, and pray to Me, and I will hearken to you. And you shall seek Me, and find Me,when you shall search for Me with all your heart" (Jeremiah 29:13)​

Don't forget, in Temple days, Sacrficeing was a joyus occasion, it had little to do with the English/Latin word we use. Ontop of that, Blood atoned for very little and it's importance is more celebratory more then trying to appease HaShem from anger.
 
Upvote 0

sojeru

just a Jew
Mar 22, 2003
870
21
41
USA
Visit site
✟1,145.00
Faith
Judaism
Hi SW,

most of the recipies i know is secret food.
And if a person is already satisfied- he wont appreiciate the exquisite taste of my dish.
so for the moment I keep it to myself

and here is a list of HOW SACRIFICES WERE USED back then, ONLY ONE WAS REALLY a JOYOUS ONE.

THE SACRIFICIAL SYSTEM
(Last update 6/23/00)


Sacrifices were offered before the first Tabernacle was built. Sacrifices were offered by: Adam, Abel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses.
  • According to Midrash, Adam repented of his sin and God showed him how to reconcile himself through the sacrifice of an ox.
  • Abel sacrificed one of his best sheep as a freewill offering to God.
  • Noah took 7 pair of each clean animal onto the ark, enabling him to have enough to sacrifice with.
  • Abraham built 4 altars and sacrificed on them.
  • Isaac built one altar.
  • Jacob built two altars.
  • Moses sacrificed before the Tabernacle was built. Once after a battle against Amalek, and also at the foot of Mount Sinai before the giving of the Torah.
In Judaism, it is taught then when a Jew sins against God, Satan in heaven demands of
God to "take away the soul" of the sinner. God replies that he accepts the sacrifice in place of the sinner’s death. When the sinner truly repents, God accepts the sacrifice of the animal.

Only peaceful animals are allowed for sacrifice – ox, sheep, goats, pigeons and turtledoves, and only healthy strong ones are taken.

All sacrifices – animal or flour – were salted.



There are five kinds of sacrifices:
  1. Olah / The offering that is completely burnt
  2. Mincha / The flour offering
  3. Shelamim / The peace offering
  4. Chatat / The sin offering
  5. Asham / The trespass offering
The first three of these are free will offerings a Jew could bring to God any time they wished. The last two were required whenever a Jew sinned.

OLAH



An unblemished male; either a bull, ram or goat was used if a person was able to afford one. The owner would bring the animal to the Temple courtyard. He would then lean over the animal, place his hands on the animal’s head and confess the sins for which he was bringing in the offering. Two cohanim were present; one to hand the knife to him and the other to catch the blood. After making a confession over the animal’s head, the person making the offering would then take the knife and cut the throat of the animal. The blood was collected and was sprinkled on the four corners of the alter. The organs of the animal were then removed and washed along with the rest of the body. The body and its organs were then burnt whole upon the altar. If a person could not afford to bring these animals then he could bring instead a turtledove or pigeon. The bird was brought to the cohen who killed the bird by pinching off the back of its neck. None of this offering was eaten. It also functioned to forgive sins:
  • For wrong thoughts
  • For failing to fulfill some mitzva of the Torah
  • For sins that can be corrected by performing a mitzva
MINCHA (Gift)

If a person was so poor that he could not even afford a bird then he could bring Mincha offering (Mincha means gift). The Mincha offering was an offering of flour, about 5 lbs. The flour was placed in a special pan into which some oil had been poured. More oil was poured over the flour and mixed with a sweet spice. The pan was then handed to the cohen who brought the pan to the alter where it was measured out, three hands full, which was burnt on the alter. The flour was not allowed to rise, could not be sweetened and must be salted. The person offering this sacrifice eats none of his offering. The priests do eat the leftovers. It was taught that when the priests eat of this sacrifice, God forgave the sins of Israel.

There was also another Mincha done by the priest once in his lifetime prior to his beginning service in the Temple in order to prepare him. This one was completely burnt and not eaten. The High Priest also offered a Mincha for himself every day. This would direct his thoughts to G-d and make him worthy to ask for forgiveness of Israel’s sins.

SHELAMIM (Peace offering)



The Shelamim, or peace offering was not brought to atone for sin, but instead to express happiness and gratitude to God. An ox or cow, ram or female sheep were used as an offering. They were slaughtered in the same fashion as the Olah, except the person would give thanks to God and sing praises when he laid his hands on the animal’s head. The blood that was collected was sprinkled on the four corners of the altar. Part of the animal was burned on the altar while the owner and the cohanim ate the rest. This sacrifice was also offered whenever God rescued you from a dangerous situation (Shalmay Toda) specifically:
  • Recovering from a serious illness
  • Crossing the desert safely
  • Returning safely from an ocean voyage
  • Freed from prison
CHATAT (Sin offering)



The chatat was slaughtered on the north side of the altar – same place as the Olah, possibly to not embarrass the sinner.) This was required for sin done "by mistake," i.e.,
  • A person did not know the Torah’s commandment (i.e., they did not know they should not work on the Sabbath.) Ignorance of Torah is not an excuse to God.
  • A person is mistaken about some facts related to the above (i.e., they did not know that it was Shabbat that day.) Neither is negligence is not an excuse with God.
ASHAM (Trespass offering)



There are six reasons for offering an Asham:
  • When a person steals
  • When a person misuses Temple items
  • When a person has uncertainty about possibly committing a sin
  • For the High Priest who sinned
  • For when the Sanhedrin sins
  • For when the King sins
THE SALVATION SACRIFICE OF YOM KIPPUR

The sacrifice of Yom Kippur is separate and distinct from all the other sacrifices offered during the year. While the others reconciled the sinner on a day to day basis with God, Yom Kippur is the day that God would forgive all the sins of all the people in every generation – in essence this was their salvation sacrifice.

Yom Kippur is the only time that the High Priest would enter into the presence of God in the Holy of Holies, doing this four times in all that day. He would remove four of his eight garments – all those with gold – and enter only with four white linen garments. He would change his clothes five times, dipping himself in a Mikveh each time.



Special offerings were made in addition to the regular ones:
  • An offering for all the people paid for with public funds (Korban Mussaf)
  • The High Priest’s personal sacrifice paid for with his own money
  • The two goats – one sacrificed to Hashem and the other sent to Alazel after all the sins of the people were "placed" upon it
The High priest would turn to the curtain separating the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies, and sprinkled the blood of the bull sacrifice one time upward, then seven times downward. He would repeat this process with the blood of the goat sacrifice one time upward, then seven times downward.

He then entered the Holy of Holies, took blood from the bull and the goat and put some on the four corners of the threshing floor. He also sprinkled this on the altar, repeating the process of sprinkling once upwards, then seven times downward.



The miracles/signs that took place, showing God’s approval and forgiveness:
  • Drawing of lots always produced "LaHashem" in the right hand
  • The red ribbon tied to the scapegoat always turned white
  • The Center light of the Menora always burned until morning
  • Fire on the copper altar never went out even when it wasn’t properly stoked
  • Priests felt full even after eating only a small part of the offerings
  • The smoke of the incense offering would fill the Holy of Holies
The Talmud however, records that many of these miracles ceased to occur about 40 years before the destruction of the second Temple, and never returned. This of course coincides with the time of the death of Yeshua:

Yoma 39b - During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot [‘For the Lord’] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-coloured strap become white; nor did the westernmost light shine; and the doors of the Hekal would open by themselves, until R. Johanan b. Zakkai rebuked them, saying: Hekal, Hekal, why wilt thou be the alarmer thyself? I know about thee that thou wilt be destroyed, for Zechariah ben Ido has already prophesied concerning thee: Open thy doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour thy cedars.


 
Upvote 0

YatzivPatgam

Active Member
Oct 17, 2003
225
8
41
Jerusalem
Visit site
✟15,405.00
Faith
Judaism
Soreju,

I love Mezzie sites, They never actually know anything they write about. I'll just mention 2 things

1) Y-man didn't die 40 years within temple destruction according to Jewish reckoning

2) This tractate (Yoma) is speaking of a lapse of "Miracles" for a time, before they reappear after certian events take place. This is why they never reproduce the entire tractate.

I keep telling you, they are my best work.



EDIT- The icing on the cake is, they don't offer sources for their ideas of Asham- there is good reason ;)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

blessed2

Active Member
Oct 21, 2003
374
33
62
Arkansas
Visit site
✟710.00
Faith
Messianic
I keep having thoughts of ' suppose he has not forgiven me , though i prayed earnestly for repentance ' since I commited those sins in full knowledge of the truth.
These sound like the words of the enemy.
Satan never likes us returning to the L-rd and will try to make you feel HOPE-LESS.
Give no ear to the enemy but stand firmly on the promise.
G-d is faithful in forgiveness but sometimes we stumble in the forgiving of our selves.
If we repent and are forgiven and the L-rd has cast our sins into the sea of His forgetfulness.....but we continue to ask for forgiveness for it, will He even know what we are talking about?
Better to carry the lesson we learn with us to avoid repeating our mistakes in the future.
 
Upvote 0