Effectiveness of The Lord's Prayer...

[Annabel Lee]

One of the most moving parts of the Mass is when the entire church stands and recites the Profession of Faith.
A *memorized* prayer.

The Nicene Creed

We believe in God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfilment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son
he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

Amen

 

[jackmichal]

I at first PM'ed this to Bruno, but I decided to post it just in case someone else might get some use out of it.

Originally posted by Bruno
I completelly agree with this. I use the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ every day to lead me into His Truth. I keep praying for wisdom and Truth daily. I trust Jesus with my life and will go wherever He leads me. If He ever points me towards a Catholic church for whatever reason, I will not resist, that is a promise...

Dear Bruno,

it is wonderful that you are so open.  And prayer from the heart is always answered.  So keep up the thirst for the Truth and you will find It, guaranteed.

I would like to share with you a page which I came upon, by Grace, a few months ago, and one I visit daily: http://www.tlig.org/   The Peace and Love messages of "True Life in God".  After reading all of the messages, I sincerely believe them to be genuine and authentic!  A Love Hymn from God.  A reminder of His Word through the Holy Spirit of Truth, revealing nothing new, and adding nothing new to Scriptures.

It teaches the Truth, the complete Truth in a very subtle way, and uses words that are easy to understand, rather than using sophisticated theological terms to bring us to the Truth.

Please, I humbly suggest that you read fully these Providential messages of 'True Life in God' before rejecting anything that might not agree to your standards in the beginning.

Also, I have posted a thread about "Miracles, apparitions and visions in our times", where I mention the TLiG messages.  Here is that link:

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=580977#post580977

 

God Bless,

in The Two Hearts of Jesus and Mary,

Love

jack

P.S:  The TLiG messages are in-line with the Catholic doctrine, supporting the Pope, the Rosary, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist etc.  Although sadly not yet accepted by the church.

 

[jukesk9]

Originally posted by Annabel Lee
One of the most moving parts of the Mass is when the entire church stands and recites the Profession of Faith.
A *memorized* prayer.

The Nicene Creed

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfilment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.

You know, I would go round and round with the Ruptured Rangers that this WAS and IS a profession of faith in Jesus.  They would say, "You gotta ask Jesus into your heart" and I would say, "Where's that in the Bible?" and they would post:
<DL>
<DT>Rom 10:9-10
<DD>For, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved. </DD></DL>And then I'd point out that's what we say each and every Mass and at our Confirmation.&nbsp; Not do we just say it, but we believe it with all our heart, mind, strength and soul.&nbsp; I cut that above out from Annabel's post which I think meets the criteria for Romans 10:9-10.&nbsp; I was still told that wasn't good enough.........

 

[kern]

Often when you post this creed, the response is "Well, I trust in Jesus rather than 'creeds'! That creed will not save you!" Which shows a singular lack of understand as to what the creed is about. It's not a magic prayer that results in salvation; it's simply a profession of what we believe.

-Chris

 

[Stormy]

Originally posted by Annabel Lee
One of the most moving parts of the Mass is when the entire church stands and recites the Profession of Faith.
A *memorized* prayer.

The Nicene Creed

We believe in God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfilment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son
he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

Amen

When I read your prayer, it most certainly was touching my heart.

So... Is there a lot to memorize? Are there cue cards?

What do you do if you do not know all the words?

 

[chelcb]

Stormy,

At a Catholic Mass everything ritualistic thing we do is in the missal for you to follow along with including the prayers and the creed which we call the profession of faith. We say this right before we begin the Eucharistic prayers over the gifts, which lead directly into the consecration. So one does not have to be lost when attending Mass for the first time.

 

[Stormy]

Can I purchase a missal somewhere?

Can I print one off the Internet anywhere?

I would love to read it.

 

[chelcb]

Originally posted by Stormy
Can I purchase a missal somewhere?

Can I print one off the Internet anywhere?

I would love to read it.

&nbsp;

There in the Churches for our use but you can purchase your own. Usually those that attend daily mass have their own because the readings are not in the church's missal that they provided, only the Sunday readings. BTW, readings are scripture. There is a reading from the OT and one from the Letters or epistles. Then there is the reading of the gospels where we stand for this and only the priest or deacon is worthy of reading the gospels because the gospels are the very words of our lord.

There are 4 seasons (I think) that the missal is printed and it is Advent, Lent, Easter tide (my Fav) and ordinary time.

In the St Joseph missal that you can purchase at any Catholic bookstore all of the readings and seasons are in one along with the funeral mass and the nuptial mass. Also all the feast days of the saints and the BVM should be listed as well along with their prayers.

The Church missals are really easy to read and also, the hymns are included in both missals as well.

You can take one home from mass with you if you ask I am sure they won't mind.

Oh, and the readings rotate every three years so if you go to mass everyday for three years straight you would have read the entire bible! (including the books the protestants swore we added)

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Stormy-

The rituals of the Mass may be confusing the first couple times, but with practice they will become second nature. In the meantime, just follow everyone else. As Chelsi mentioned, there are usually missals which you can use to follow along. If a nearby Catholic church has temporary missalettes replaced with each season, the priest will probably be quite willing to let you have one for you to study at your leisure.

 

[Stormy]

Originally posted by chelcb
&nbsp; Then there is the reading of the gospels where we stand for this and only the priest or deacon is worthy of reading the gospels because the gospels are the very words of our lord.

Please explain what you mean here. I am talking about the words ... only the priest or deacon is "worthy" of reading the gospels?

 

[chelcb]

Originally posted by Stormy
Please explain what you mean here. I am talking about the words ... only the priest or deacon is "worthy" of reading the gospels?

&nbsp;

Somehow I knew that was going to throw you off

It does not imply that we can not read them ourselves but at mass when the priest is in "persona Christi" which means in the person of Christ. He is our mystical Christ that offers his one perfect sacrifice up to God for the congregation. Much the same way the high priest would make the offerings for the people in the OT rituals.

We are being taught by God as scripture says and when the priest is reading the words of Jesus he is in "persona Christi" it is Jesus reading us his gospel, the priest is only the instrument that God uses, but it is Jesus that is present with us.

If you notice when the priest speaks the words of the consecration which are "This is my body...this is my blood..." it is not really the priest but Jesus speaking. It is as if we are all gathered at the table at the Last Supper with our lord.

So that is what I mean by "worthy" because a priest is the only actual person on the earth that can act in the person of Jesus.

A priest is also in persona Christi when he hears our confession. We are not unlike the women in the bible that went to Jesus and washed his feet with her tears as he forgave her sins.

We go to Jesus in the confessional and we tell him our sins and the priest speaks the same words to us when he absolves us, "your faith has healed you now go in peace."

I hope I cleared some of this up for you and I sincerely hope I explained this well.

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by chelcb
&nbsp;

Somehow I knew that was going to throw you off

It does not imply that we can not read them ourselves but at mass when the priest is in "persona Christi" which means in the person of Christ. He is our mystical Christ that offers his one perfect sacrifice up to God for the congregation. Much the same way the high priest would make the offerings for the people in the OT rituals.

We are being taught by God as scripture says and when the priest is reading the words of Jesus he is in "persona Christi" it is Jesus reading us his gospel, the priest is only the instrument that God uses, but it is Jesus that is present with us.

If you notice when the priest speaks the words of the consecration which are "This is my body...this is my blood..." it is not really the priest but Jesus speaking. It is as if we are all gathered at the table at the Last Supper with our lord.

So that is what I mean by "worthy" because a priest is the only actual person on the earth that can act in the person of Jesus.

A priest is also in persona Christi when he hears our confession. We are not unlike the women in the bible that went to Jesus and washed his feet with her tears as he forgave her sins.

We go to Jesus in the confessional and we tell him our sins and the priest speaks the same words to us when he absolves us, "your faith has healed you now go in peace."

I hope I cleared some of this up for you and I sincerely hope I explained this well.

I can't accept this priest being Christ thing. He is not Jesus.

 

[Stormy]

Me too Joe.

It isn't like this stuff is really happening. We are being asked to pretend?

I am sorry if I am hurting anyones feelings. I do not know how else to word it.

 

[Stormy]

The bread and the wine are the body and blood of Christ... that is biblical.

But the Priest himself is never Jesus!

 

[Stormy]

I am tired. I will get back to this in the morning.

Time for prayer and sleep.

Goodnight everyone.

 

[chelcb]

No hard feelings, but it is a teaching of the Church. I will leave it for someone else to answer.

 

[chelcb]

I will just leave this to be looked over. Its&nbsp;from the CCC: (sorry for it's length)

Why the ecclesial ministry?

874 Christ is himself the source of ministry in the Church. He instituted the Church. He gave her authority and mission, orientation and goal:
In order to shepherd the People of God and to increase its numbers without cease, Christ the Lord set up in his Church a variety of offices which aim at the good of the whole body. The holders of office, who are invested with a sacred power, are, in fact, dedicated to promoting the interests of their brethren, so that all who belong to the People of God . . . may attain to salvation.[389]

875 "How are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? And how can men preach unless they are sent?"[390] No one - no individual and no community - can proclaim the Gospel to himself: "Faith comes from what is heard."[391] No one can give himself the mandate and the mission to proclaim the Gospel. The one sent by the Lord does not speak and act on his own authority, but by virtue of Christ's authority; not as a member of the community, but speaking to it in the name of Christ. No one can bestow grace on himself; it must be given and offered. This fact presupposes ministers of grace, authorized and empowered by Christ. From him, they receive the mission and faculty ("the sacred power") to act in persona Christi Capitis. The ministry in which Christ's emissaries do and give by God's grace what they cannot do and give by their own powers, is called a "sacrament" by the Church's tradition. Indeed, the ministry of the Church is conferred by a special sacrament.

876 Intrinsically linked to the sacramental nature of ecclesial ministry is its character as service. Entirely dependent on Christ who gives mission and authority, ministers are truly "slaves of Christ,"[392] in the image of him who freely took "the form of a slave" for us.[393] Because the word and grace of which they are ministers are not their own, but are given to them by Christ for the sake of others, they must freely become the slaves of all.[394]

877 Likewise, it belongs to the sacramental nature of ecclesial ministry that it have a collegial character. In fact, from the beginning of his ministry, the Lord Jesus instituted the Twelve as "the seeds of the new Israel and the beginning of the sacred hierarchy."[395] Chosen together, they were also sent out together, and their fraternal unity would be at the service of the fraternal communion of all the faithful: they would reflect and witness to the communion of the divine persons.[396] For this reason every bishop exercises his ministry from within the episcopal college, in communion with the bishop of Rome, the successor of St. Peter and head of the college. So also priests exercise their ministry from within the presbyterium of the diocese, under the direction of their bishop.

878 Finally, it belongs to the sacramental nature of ecclesial ministry that it have a personal character. Although Chnst's ministers act in communion with one another, they also always act in a personal way. Each one is called personally: "You, follow me"[397] in order to be a personal witness within the common mission, to bear personal responsibility before him who gives the mission, acting "in his person" and for other persons: "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit ..."; "I absolve you...."

879 Sacramental ministry in the Church, then, is at once a collegial and a personal service, exercised in the name of Christ. This is evidenced by the bonds between the episcopal college and its head, the successor of St. Peter, and in the relationship between the bishop's pastoral responsibility for his particular church and the common solicitude of the episcopal college for the universal Church.

 

[Stormy]

I can never accept this.

 

[jukesk9]

Originally posted by Stormy
I can never accept this.

The priest is acting in Christ's authority...he's not Christ himself.&nbsp; He represents Jesus.&nbsp; Remember when Christ gave the Apostles to bind and loose?&nbsp; Remember when He gave them the power to forgive and retain sins?&nbsp; That is what the above is pretty much saying.&nbsp; Take a look at Acts 2:38.&nbsp; Peter is distinguishing John's baptism from Christ's and tells the audience they must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus.&nbsp; He's not talking formula here; rather he is talking authority and that authority comes from Jesus.

 

[Messenger]

That is a scary practice...I won't pretend someone becomes Jesus. I am really frightened for what is being taught. We are to put no others before God and this comes real close. I don't mean to offend rather to warn. This sounds like a cult. I realize that if it were a "cult" it would be one of the biggest in the world but that worries me even more. I don't find this to be biblically based. I can't fix it on my own...all I can do is pray that if this is as wrong as I believe that you will listen to your heart and know. Pray and listen to the Holy Spirit. Each of us was given the Holy Spirit as our guide. If man tells you something (priest) and the Holy Spirit tells you differently the Holy Spirit is correct. Please don't put too much trust in man. I'm worried for you all truely I am. This may be taken badly and if I don't word things correctly I will be banned but there is a time to keep quiet and a time to speak and if I can help even one I'd rather speak.

Love and God Bless.