Editor of Charisma takes stand against Bentley's actions; Rick Joyner fires back

[Tenebrae]

TB doesn't lead that ministry anymore. His immorality wasn't tolerated, and he was removed.

Understand that an organization with Christian integrity will behave better than many secular organizations.

Thats the problem too often their standards are worse than secular organisations

 

[Floatingaxe]

Thats the problem too often their standards are worse than secular organisations

No they aren't. Christian organizations operate using Godly principles.

 

[Tenebrae]

No they aren't. Christian organizations operate using Godly principles.

So I'm lying am I. My evidence of having encountered several 'christian ministries' with very shonky standards of practice, much worse than the secular equivalent must be false.

What ever,

 

[imperfectchristian]

So I'm lying am I. My evidence of having encountered several 'christian ministries' with very shonky standards of practice, much worse than the secular equivalent must be false.

What ever,

Shonky? What is shonky?

 

[BenAdam]

I don't see how someone can be restored who is currently in the sin of adultery.

The way I understand it, unless bentley's former wife had committed fornication, would there be grounds for divorce. If she didn't, then he is in adultery, even more so with the recent marriage.

Please, anyone, feel free to break out the scriptures and correct me on this.

Thou shall not put the cash cow in the barn. 2 Hezekiah 9:8

 

[Simon Peter]

IMO, a disappointing response by both Grady and Joyner.

There you go judging people again

And they're not accountable to you, and you don't even attend their churches...

 

[JimB]

I am becoming disillusioned by charismatic ministries. I feel our leaders should be held to a very high standard. Scripture makes it very clear that those in a position of leadership should be held to a very high standard.

Yet, somehow just because you are a charismatic and have what appears to be great gifts, then you should be allowed to do whatever you want and not suffer any consequences.

Here's a guy who cheated on his wife (Last August) and then went through a divorce process that just ended.

As I've said several times now, we as laymen would be not given the same grace in our own churches that this man has been given by national leaders.

Look at the strict requirements of leadership written by the Apostle Paul:

It is things like this debacle that cause the church not to take P/C seriously. Scandal, not virtue, marks us because we idolize our preachers, set them on such a high pedestal that when they fall it is with a loud crash.

And, of course, TB had nothing to with it, in the eyes of some. He was just an innocent victim all those times he was leaving a motel room to go on stage, collect offerings, and punch suffering people in the stomach to “heal” them (but it sure did give his slavering audience a good show) and then, when he is caught with his zipper down, rather than repent, divorces his wife, marries his lover and seeks to re-launch his bogus ministry. I little contrition might have gone a long way to elevating poor old TB in the eyes of the mean old church.

If TB is “wounded” it is only because he shot himself in the foot. No one else did it although many of us, even in this forum, called a spade a spade when we should have instead of letting it get to the point where it was just another of many similar stains on Charis-mania.

When we gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain? ~Bob Dylan, 1979.

~Jim

“We were made not primarily that we may love God but that God may love us. ~C.S. Lewis​

 

[Blue Rose2]

Man oh man. Todd Bentley SINNED. What he did was wrong and immoral. Everyone gets that. As Christians, we should be praying for him. That is scriptural. Are we so perfect that we can sit in judgement on this man? I have sinned too, but am SO thankful for God's mercy and grace that triumphs over judgement.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I have sinned too, but am SO thankful for God's mercy and grace that triumphs over judgement.

Me too Blue Rose2, me too.

 

[Questioning Christian]

No they aren't. Christian organizations operate using Godly principles.

Apparently so

 

[Questioning Christian]

Man oh man. Todd Bentley SINNED. What he did was wrong and immoral. Everyone gets that. As Christians, we should be praying for him. That is scriptural. Are we so perfect that we can sit in judgement on this man? I have sinned too, but am SO thankful for God's mercy and grace that triumphs over judgement.

People are praying for Todd Bentley.

People are giving him grace and mercy.

If a guy runs out on his family, and people call him to answer for that, does this mean they are not praying for him? Does it mean they have no grace or mercy?

What I want to know is ...

Since when did "mercy and grace" become the practice of pretending that sin does not exist, patting and petting people? When you were a child, and your mother found you doing something wrong, did she just give you a wink and a nod? Or perhaps was she ever angry?

I don't think people here on CF understand the severity of what Todd has done.

I really don't.

I don't think you've contemplated how his actions have hurt so many lives and destroyed so many people, first his ex-wife and children, then his ministry associates, and so on. I don't think you have taken the time to think about the results of Todd's actions on the lives of other people.

I think you are only concerned about how poor little Todd's going to get his feelings hurt if we come down too hard on him.

I have been through two major church scandals. I have seen countless lives torn apart by the stupid actions of preachers who did things that Todd Bentley did. It is easy to sit there and say "wow, let's just forgive him, grace and mercy, grace and mercy".

But that fails to recognize the process of restoration.

Restoration is painful. It's not like some walk in the park, BAM, Todd's restored, ob la di ob la da Life Goes On.

Restoration HURTS.
Restoration uncovers old wounds.
Restoration brings the worst to the surface, to be dealt with.
Restoration brings shocking awareness of one's own humanity.
Restoration pulls down the covers.
Restoration shows you how naked and how vulnerable and how weak you are.
Restoration requires a commitment.
Restoration brings tears.
Restoration means complete honesty and that everything is on the table.
Restoration is as stark a reality as you will ever face.

RESTORATION DOES NOT POINT FINGERS AT THOSE WHO CALL YOU INTO ACCOUNTABILITY, FOR WHEN YOUR HEART IS HUMBLED BEFORE GOD, THE ONLY WRONG OR SIN YOU CAN THINK OF IS YOUR OWN. WHAT OTHER PEOPLE DO AND SAY IS THE FURTHEST THING FROM YOUR MIND -- BECAUSE YOU JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU GET RIGHT BEFORE GOD, NOT EVERYBODY ELSE ... JUST YOU

In one of the cases of the church scandals, I walked with the guy in relationship as God opened the door to me. I have seen over the last 18 years the struggles he has gone through as he has wanted to go back into the ministry, but has felt like a total failure. I have seen him open up to me as a friend [like a dad to me, and me like a son to him] as he told me that nobody in the church really tried to get in touch with him. I saw the times when he basically gave up on himself. I saw his bitter divorce and happy remarriage to his new wife. I saw his regrets, his cursing of himself, and his feelings of inadequacy. I saw a man go to some of his lowest points of life.

I am speaking from some very personal experience here.

God ran me into him when he felt like nobody else cared, and he told me I was the single lifeline that kept him afloat and going in the dark hours of the last two decades of his life as he has hashed out this moral failure and tried to move on from it.

To this day, it is hard for him to go back into the ministry.

I feel like my friend has gone through the true process of repentance, and then some. Although it does not take 18 years, my friend has spent all that time trying to make sense of what happened. God can restore a person very quickly.

Restoration is, more than anything, found in the context of RELATIONSHIP - relationship to God, and relationship to those who were hurt.

It's not about trying to make sure he hurries up and gets his stuff together so he can be a big preacher again, and this is where he makes his mistake. He needs to fix things between him and God, then him and his family, then him and his Canadian organization, then him and the body of Christ. That is the proper order.

I hope this did not come across too strongly.

But when I hear all this yelling on this forum about "grace and mercy" and easy repentance, and microwave restoration, and that Todd Bentley should not be called into some kind of accountability, and that anyone who pursues this accountability is the devil...

I remember back to my former days when I had never seen the dark side of restoration.

I remember when the church was ignorant in its bliss, that they spoke of restoration and repentance like they were ice cream and apple pie. They didn't have a clue what restoration and repentance really mean.

And anyone else who has walked though it knows exactly what I am talking about.

 

[probinson]

Remember the Prodigal son? Remember how much his restoration hurt him? Remember all the travail and grieving that took place? Remember how his father required him to publicly repent in front of everyone and display his remorse? Remember how the father lectured him about what he had done wrong and made him promise to be accountable never to do it again?

Oh wait, that's not what happened at all... remember how the father IMMEDIATELY ran to him while he was still a long way off and covered him with his embrace, BEFORE he repented, and then CLOTHED him with his very best robe and threw him a party? Remember how his brother reacted, because apparently his brother's restoration didn't hurt as much as he thought it should?

I think many times, we make the "process" far more laborious and involved than it needs to be. God can change your whole world forever, in an instant.

 

[JEBrady]

People are praying for Todd Bentley.

People are giving him grace and mercy.

If a guy runs out on his family, and people call him to answer for that, does this mean they are not praying for him? Does it mean they have no grace or mercy?

What I want to know is ...

Since when did "mercy and grace" become the practice of pretending that sin does not exist, patting and petting people? When you were a child, and your mother found you doing something wrong, did she just give you a wink and a nod? Or perhaps was she ever angry?

I don't think people here on CF understand the severity of what Todd has done.

I really don't.

I don't think you've contemplated how his actions have hurt so many lives and destroyed so many people, first his ex-wife and children, then his ministry associates, and so on. I don't think you have taken the time to think about the results of Todd's actions on the lives of other people.

I think you are only concerned about how poor little Todd's going to get his feelings hurt if we come down too hard on him.

I have been through two major church scandals. I have seen countless lives torn apart by the stupid actions of preachers who did things that Todd Bentley did. It is easy to sit there and say "wow, let's just forgive him, grace and mercy, grace and mercy".

But that fails to recognize the process of restoration.

Restoration is painful. It's not like some walk in the park, BAM, Todd's restored, ob la di ob la da Life Goes On.

Restoration HURTS.
Restoration uncovers old wounds.
Restoration brings the worst to the surface, to be dealt with.
Restoration brings shocking awareness of one's own humanity.
Restoration pulls down the covers.
Restoration shows you how naked and how vulnerable and how weak you are.
Restoration requires a commitment.
Restoration brings tears.
Restoration means complete honesty and that everything is on the table.
Restoration is as stark a reality as you will ever face.

RESTORATION DOES NOT POINT FINGERS AT THOSE WHO CALL YOU INTO ACCOUNTABILITY, FOR WHEN YOUR HEART IS HUMBLED BEFORE GOD, THE ONLY WRONG OR SIN YOU CAN THINK OF IS YOUR OWN. WHAT OTHER PEOPLE DO AND SAY IS THE FURTHEST THING FROM YOUR MIND -- BECAUSE YOU JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU GET RIGHT BEFORE GOD, NOT EVERYBODY ELSE ... JUST YOU

In one of the cases of the church scandals, I walked with the guy in relationship as God opened the door to me. I have seen over the last 18 years the struggles he has gone through as he has wanted to go back into the ministry, but has felt like a total failure. I have seen him open up to me as a friend [like a dad to me, and me like a son to him] as he told me that nobody in the church really tried to get in touch with him. I saw the times when he basically gave up on himself. I saw his bitter divorce and happy remarriage to his new wife. I saw his regrets, his cursing of himself, and his feelings of inadequacy. I saw a man go to some of his lowest points of life.

I am speaking from some very personal experience here.

God ran me into him when he felt like nobody else cared, and he told me I was the single lifeline that kept him afloat and going in the dark hours of the last two decades of his life as he has hashed out this moral failure and tried to move on from it.

To this day, it is hard for him to go back into the ministry.

I feel like my friend has gone through the true process of repentance, and then some. Although it does not take 18 years, my friend has spent all that time trying to make sense of what happened. God can restore a person very quickly.

Restoration is, more than anything, found in the context of RELATIONSHIP - relationship to God, and relationship to those who were hurt.

It's not about trying to make sure he hurries up and gets his stuff together so he can be a big preacher again, and this is where he makes his mistake. He needs to fix things between him and God, then him and his family, then him and his Canadian organization, then him and the body of Christ. That is the proper order.

I hope this did not come across too strongly.

But when I hear all this yelling on this forum about "grace and mercy" and easy repentance, and microwave restoration, and that Todd Bentley should not be called into some kind of accountability, and that anyone who pursues this accountability is the devil...

I remember back to my former days when I had never seen the dark side of restoration.

I remember when the church was ignorant in its bliss, that they spoke of restoration and repentance like they were ice cream and apple pie. They didn't have a clue what restoration and repentance really mean.

And anyone else who has walked though it knows exactly what I am talking about.

Was your friend ever actually restored to God to where he has the joy of salvation again?

 

[Zugzwang]

Remember the Prodigal son? Remember how much his restoration hurt him? Remember all the travail and grieving that took place? Remember how his father required him to publicly repent in front of everyone and display his remorse? Remember how the father lectured him about what he had done wrong and made him promise to be accountable never to do it again?

Oh wait, that's not what happened at all... remember how the father IMMEDIATELY ran to him while he was still a long way off and covered him with his embrace, BEFORE he repented, and then CLOTHED him with his very best robe and threw him a party? Remember how his brother reacted, because apparently his brother's restoration didn't hurt as much as he thought it should?

I think many times, we make the "process" far more laborious and involved than it needs to be. God can change your whole world forever, in an instant.

don't you think you're oversimplifying this parable just a LIL bit?

he was reduced to feeding SWINE, do you know how abhorent that was to jews of that age, and to middle eastern ppl today? if he hadn't hit rock bottom he surely wouldn't have eaten what THEY ate.

but Todd will never hit rock bottom so god can deal with him b/c ppl wanna make excuses FOR him, and continue to lift him up instead of letting god do that for him.

 

[Watchman4hm]

Oh wait, that's not what happened at all... remember how the father IMMEDIATELY ran to him while he was still a long way off and covered him with his embrace, BEFORE he repented, and then CLOTHED him with his very best robe and threw him a party?

PPPllleeaase..He reasoned/repented within himself while still feeding the swine.

 

[Blue Rose2]

People are praying for Todd Bentley.

People are giving him grace and mercy.

If a guy runs out on his family, and people call him to answer for that, does this mean they are not praying for him? Does it mean they have no grace or mercy?

What I want to know is ...

Since when did "mercy and grace" become the practice of pretending that sin does not exist, patting and petting people? When you were a child, and your mother found you doing something wrong, did she just give you a wink and a nod? Or perhaps was she ever angry?

I don't think people here on CF understand the severity of what Todd has done.

I really don't.

I don't think you've contemplated how his actions have hurt so many lives and destroyed so many people, first his ex-wife and children, then his ministry associates, and so on. I don't think you have taken the time to think about the results of Todd's actions on the lives of other people.

I think you are only concerned about how poor little Todd's going to get his feelings hurt if we come down too hard on him.

I have been through two major church scandals. I have seen countless lives torn apart by the stupid actions of preachers who did things that Todd Bentley did. It is easy to sit there and say "wow, let's just forgive him, grace and mercy, grace and mercy".

But that fails to recognize the process of restoration.

Restoration is painful. It's not like some walk in the park, BAM, Todd's restored, ob la di ob la da Life Goes On.

Restoration HURTS.
Restoration uncovers old wounds.
Restoration brings the worst to the surface, to be dealt with.
Restoration brings shocking awareness of one's own humanity.
Restoration pulls down the covers.
Restoration shows you how naked and how vulnerable and how weak you are.
Restoration requires a commitment.
Restoration brings tears.
Restoration means complete honesty and that everything is on the table.
Restoration is as stark a reality as you will ever face.

RESTORATION DOES NOT POINT FINGERS AT THOSE WHO CALL YOU INTO ACCOUNTABILITY, FOR WHEN YOUR HEART IS HUMBLED BEFORE GOD, THE ONLY WRONG OR SIN YOU CAN THINK OF IS YOUR OWN. WHAT OTHER PEOPLE DO AND SAY IS THE FURTHEST THING FROM YOUR MIND -- BECAUSE YOU JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU GET RIGHT BEFORE GOD, NOT EVERYBODY ELSE ... JUST YOU

In one of the cases of the church scandals, I walked with the guy in relationship as God opened the door to me. I have seen over the last 18 years the struggles he has gone through as he has wanted to go back into the ministry, but has felt like a total failure. I have seen him open up to me as a friend [like a dad to me, and me like a son to him] as he told me that nobody in the church really tried to get in touch with him. I saw the times when he basically gave up on himself. I saw his bitter divorce and happy remarriage to his new wife. I saw his regrets, his cursing of himself, and his feelings of inadequacy. I saw a man go to some of his lowest points of life.

I am speaking from some very personal experience here.

God ran me into him when he felt like nobody else cared, and he told me I was the single lifeline that kept him afloat and going in the dark hours of the last two decades of his life as he has hashed out this moral failure and tried to move on from it.

To this day, it is hard for him to go back into the ministry.

I feel like my friend has gone through the true process of repentance, and then some. Although it does not take 18 years, my friend has spent all that time trying to make sense of what happened. God can restore a person very quickly.

Restoration is, more than anything, found in the context of RELATIONSHIP - relationship to God, and relationship to those who were hurt.

It's not about trying to make sure he hurries up and gets his stuff together so he can be a big preacher again, and this is where he makes his mistake. He needs to fix things between him and God, then him and his family, then him and his Canadian organization, then him and the body of Christ. That is the proper order.

I hope this did not come across too strongly.

But when I hear all this yelling on this forum about "grace and mercy" and easy repentance, and microwave restoration, and that Todd Bentley should not be called into some kind of accountability, and that anyone who pursues this accountability is the devil...

I remember back to my former days when I had never seen the dark side of restoration.

I remember when the church was ignorant in its bliss, that they spoke of restoration and repentance like they were ice cream and apple pie. They didn't have a clue what restoration and repentance really mean.

And anyone else who has walked though it knows exactly what I am talking about.

WHERE in heavens name did you get ANY of that from what I said? Good grief. Chillax a bit. Take the time to read my short little paragraph, and try not to assume you know what I am thinking. Deal? Thanks.

 

[probinson]

PPPllleeaase..He reasoned/repented within himself while still feeding the swine.

In the parable, the father did not know that. He was not concerned with his son's repentance. He was concerned with HIS SON. The parable says that while his son was still a long way off, he ran to him and embraced him.

That tells me that his father was looking for him. IOW, his father was not thinking the worst of his son and running around telling everyone what horrible sin his son was in. He was anxiously anticipating his return.

That's not what the church does. The church says, clean yourself up so that we see evidence of your repentance, and then we'll think about possibly embracing you, but only after we feel that you've felt enough of the consequence of your actions, and we feel that you're accountable and trustworthy again.

The father in the parable did nothing of the sort. Before he even knew that his son had repented, he embraced him, because that is what unconditional Love does.

Such is the Kingdom of God.

 

[probinson]

don't you think you're oversimplifying this parable just a LIL bit?

The parable is simple.

In fact, his brother became upset because of just how simple it was.

 

[Blue Rose2]

AMEN Probison! TRUTH spoken there.

 

[Zugzwang]

and by truth you mean heresy right?