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Ecumenism

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Rhamiel

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The fact that they allow one group does not mean they will allow another, unless the circumstances are the same. Which they aren't.

They see Orthodox Holy Orders and their Eucharist as valid, and unlike the Protestants, they see them as still being part of the Church in a proper institutional sense.

They will have talks with any group, pretty much - that has nothing to do with them being actually close to an agreement or similar perspective.

actually, the issue of valid holy orders for the EO would have nothing to do with if Orthodox Christians are welcome to receive communion (under rather specific circumstances) at a Roman Catholic Mass
the issues would be "do you believe that this is the Body of Christ in a physical way" and if they were away from place where they could be ministered to by their own Church
so a Lutheran could fulfill both of those requirements and be invited to receive communion with us under extraordinary circumstances (not sure what the Lutheran Church has to say on this?)

but since we do not recognize the valid Holy Orders in Lutheranism, under no circumstance could a Catholic receive communion in a Lutheran Church
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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The fact that they allow one group does not mean they will allow another, unless the circumstances are the same. Which they aren't.

They see Orthodox Holy Orders and their Eucharist as valid, and unlike the Protestants, they see them as still being part of the Church in a proper institutional sense.

They will have talks with any group, pretty much - that has nothing to do with them being actually close to an agreement or similar perspective.

Well stated.

actually, the issue of valid holy orders for the EO would have nothing to do with if Orthodox Christians are welcome to receive communion (under rather specific circumstances) at a Roman Catholic Mass
the issues would be "do you believe that this is the Body of Christ in a physical way" and if they were away from place where they could be ministered to by their own Church
so a Lutheran could fulfill both of those requirements and be invited to receive communion with us under extraordinary circumstances (not sure what the Lutheran Church has to say on this?)

but since we do not recognize the valid Holy Orders in Lutheranism, under no circumstance could a Catholic receive communion in a Lutheran Church

Thanks Rhamiel; while I do believe that the Catholic position is unjustified from my Lutheran perspective; I do accept and respect your practice and teachings regarding fellowship and the administration of the Eucharist. It upsets me almost as much when people disrespect the position and practices of the CC as when they disrespect my own.
 
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hedrick

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It sounds like you are thinking of being in communion as the same thing as having open communion.

No. But the discussion had turned from formal full communion agreements between specific denominations to the question of why someone would allow a person to have communion in our church if their theology of communion differs greatly.

There are obviously churches that admit people from other denominations with similar theology. Conservative Lutheran and Reformed are that way. However we were discussing Lutherans who would allow both Catholics and Protestants who don't share the Lutheran concept of the real presence.

To my knowledge the groups that admit to the sacrament people holding a wide range of eucharistic theology also practice open communion, since the justification for admitting some groups that differ significantly on theology would seem to justify admit any Christian. But there might well be exceptions that I don't know about.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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No. But the discussion had turned from formal full communion agreements between specific denominations to the question of why someone would allow a person to have communion in our church if their theology of communion differs greatly.

There are obviously churches that admit people from other denominations with similar theology. Conservative Lutheran and Reformed are that way. However we were discussing Lutherans who would allow both Catholics and Protestants who don't share the Lutheran concept of the real presence.

To my knowledge the groups that admit to the sacrament people holding a wide range of eucharistic theology also practice open communion, since the justification for admitting some groups that differ significantly on theology would seem to justify admit any Christian. But there might well be exceptions that I don't know about.

Actually Hedrick, it is the Liberal Lutheran Churches that have open Communion, the "Confessional (conservative)" Lutheran Churches such as LCMS/LCC, WELS and the other synods with which these confessional synods share fellowship world wide do not. Not all Confessional Churches are in altar fellowship with each other either. Likewise, both the CC and the Orthodox Communions altars have been and still are closed. While the Catholic Chruch has extended the hospitality of their altars to the Eastern Orthodox; the EO has not reciprocated, nor does the EO permit their members to Commune at Catholic Altars except under very extenuating circumstances; likewise, such "discretionary" hospitality can be extended to Catholics under extenuating circumstances.

Those of us outside of each others communions have no say whom they may extend altar hospitality to. The fact that each church is free to extend hospitality to whom ever they so chose, but they can not force others to accept such hospitality; nor can they force others to accept their priesthood as valid, if the other decides it is not.

It's my understanding that considering Canon Law, it would be impossible for the CC to extend and accept the type of fellowship that a member is promoting as "imminent".

I should not expect to be admitted to the altar in a different Chruch because we are on friendly terms and we talk nice to each other; no more than I should expect that because I talk to and am on great terms with someone that I should expect that I am allowed to share his wife when ever I decide to visit.
 
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EvangelCatholic

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This thread is more about intercommunion and not open communion but since this topic is at hand, I will also comment.

The practice among Lutherans in north America in the 1800's was due to a notion that Reformed Christians were taking holy Communion in Lutheran parishes. Sounds a little absurd but many Lutherans were still worshiping in German, Swedish, etc and evidently concerned that these other people did not understand the Real Presence and sacramental benefits of holy Communion. To my knowledge the vast majority of Lutherans commune all Lutherans who seek forgiveness of sins and eternal life. And now that majority of Lutherans also welcome Anglicans, Reformed, Moravian, etc to the holy Supper.

Those of us who may have taken retreats [i.e. Cursillo] with other Christians, particularly Episcopalian and Roman Catholic, know that the experience of receiving the blessed Sacrament together is deeply moving and often the highlight of the entire retreat.

When I read comments about closed communion it sounds like some private party. That those Lutherans have "their" Jesus but won't share Him with others who believe exactly as them. That is arrogance and bordering on sin, as I see it.
 
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Anhelyna

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Going back a bit

grrrh - these time differences really do not help when picking up a comment

GB said
The Catholic Church doesn't consider the Orthodox as being part of the Church but rather schismatics, while many of the Orthodox (as far as I can tell) look at Catholics as heterodox who are far from Orthodoxy.

My understanding has always been, that as far as the Catholic Church is concerned Orthodox Christians are considered to be 'separated brothers and sisters ' rather than schismatics.

If they were considered to be schismatic there is no way that the EP and the Pope would every be present at the same time and in the same Church e.g. at Vespers served by one or the other of them. Agreed they do not concelebrate but they are there together.

I know of several instances where Orthodox Clergy have been at Services in an EC Church - certainly not vested to Serve , but there in Cassock, Riassa and Klobuk and monastic veil so there was no mistaking them for anything other than Orthodox Clergy.
 
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EvangelCatholic

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Here is a bit more on how Catholics and Lutherans have dealt with the issue of historic succession.

81. The Roman Catholic Church has preserved the succession of episcopal consecrations; this succession was broken in continental Lutheranism, maintained in parts of Nordic Lutheranism, and has been reclaimed by the ELCA. What is the significance of either preserving or breaking this succession? That question must not be isolated and made to bear the entire weight of a judgment on a church's ministry. Whether a particular minister or church serves the church's apostolic mission does not depend only upon the presence of such a succession of episcopal consecrations, as if its absence would negate the apostolicity of the church's teaching and mission.135 Recent ecumenical discussions of episcopacy and succession do not remove our former disagreements, but they do place them in a richer and more complex context in which judgments made exclusively on the basis of the presence or absence of a succession of consecrations are less possible.


The difference in the theological and ecclesiological evaluation of the episcopal office in historic succession loses its sharpness when Lutherans attribute such a value to the episcopate that regaining full communion in this office seems important and desirable, and when Catholics recognize that "the ministry in the Lutheran churches exercises essential functions of the ministry that Jesus Christ instituted in his church"269 and does not contest the point that the Lutheran churches are church.270 The difference in evaluating the historic episcopate is thereby interpreted in such a way that the doctrine of justification is no longer at stake and consequently it is also possible to advocate theologically the regaining of full communion in the episcopal.271
Pro Unione Web Site - Full Text L-RC Church and Justification cap. 4

Even so, Catholics will have to take seriously and answer the Lutheran question. If Catholics hold that the Lord's Supper celebrated in Lutheran churches has "because of the lack [defectusl of the sacrament of orders... not preserved the genuine and total reality [substantial of the Eucharistic mystery",268 does that not, after all, show that they regard the episcopal office in historic succession as the regular transmitter of the ordained ministry in the church, and so indirectly as necessary for salvation? Catholics must answer that an ecclesiology focused on the concept of succession, as held in the Catholic Church, need in no way deny the saving presence of the Lord in a eucharist celebrated by Lutherans.

The difference between the Catholic and Lutheran views on the theological and ecclesiological evaluation of the episcopate is thus not so radical that a Lutheran rejection or even indifference toward this ministry stands in opposition to the Catholic assertion of its ecclesial indispensability. The question is rather one of a clear gradation in the evaluation of this ministry, which can be and has been described on the Catholic side by predicates such as "necessary" or "indispensable" and on the Lutheran side as "important", "meaningful", and thus "desirable".258

This is true above all in regard to the specific formation of the ecclesial ministry of leadership (episkop�). The development of the ministry into an episcopate standing in a historic succession, i.e., the continuity of apostolic succession which occurred already very early in history250 was fully affirmed by the Lutheran Reformation and emphatically championed251 just as other church realities were affirmed and conserved which had come into being in the course of history (e.g. the biblical canon, the creeds of the ancient church). For Lutheran thinking too it is entirely possible to acknowledge that the historical development of an episcopate in a historic succession was not something purely within the sphere of history, set in motion only by sociological and political factors, but that it "has taken place with the help of the Holy Spirit" and that it "constitutes something essential for the church".252

Commenting on this point, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation on the Doctrine of the Faith, wrote in 1993 to Bavarian Lutheran bishop Johannes Hanselmann:
I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of 'validity.' Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord [Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in a Lutheran [evangelische] Lord's Supper.166
The Church as Koinonia of Salvation: Its Structures and Ministries
 
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hedrick

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Actually Hedrick, it is the Liberal Lutheran Churches that have open Communion, the "Confessional (conservative)" Lutheran Churches such as LCMS/LCC, WELS and the other synods with which these confessional synods share fellowship world wide do not. Not all Confessional Churches are in altar fellowship with each other either. Likewise, both the CC and the Orthodox Communions altars have been and still are closed. While the Catholic Chruch has extended the hospitality of their altars to the Eastern Orthodox; the EO has not reciprocated, nor does the EO permit their members to Commune at Catholic Altars except under very extenuating circumstances; likewise, such "discretionary" hospitality can be extended to Catholics under extenuating circumstances.

But that was my point. The conservative churches generally have communion on with a few churches that share their theology. The ELCA has open communion (for all baptized believers).

The original context was a question about how the ELCA could accept intercommunion with such a wide variety of other denominations, when their eucharistic theology is different. I gave a justification for why churches lmight be willing to do that. Someone then said I seemed to be confusing intercommunion with open communion. My response was that the same justification for why a denomination would be in communion with others having significantly different theology tended to lead to open communion, so in fact there isn't much of a distinction.

LCMS and WELS aren't relevant to this, because they don't have communion with churches that hold different eucharistic theology. They weren't the subject of the original question.
 
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hedrick

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Sorry, no intent to derail the discussion. It just seems an important point that could prevent sharing communion among those who hold a certain theology.

I'm not sure which commentary you might mean though. I did look for opinions on this verse last year and received a very wide range of diverse opinions (not surprising since there is quite a wide range of thought about communion). I might be wrong, but it did generally appear that interpretations usually tended to align with Eucharistic theology (with the notable exception of Methodists, which was fascinating to me, but still didn't answer the question satisfactorily at that time).

The NIGCT commentary listed three common understandings:

1) “distinguishing between the sacred eucharistic elements of the Lord’s body and ordinary bread from the table.” This is a common historical view among Catholics and some Protestants, including Reformed. He doesn’t cite any modern critical commentators as holding that view.
2) “to respect for the congregation of believers as the body of the Lord.” This is held by many current interpreters, including my other commentary (Anchor Bible).
3) ““Right judgment” extends to what it means to be identified with, and involved in, the cross of Christ, in anticipation of judgment. In this sense our verse states that they must recognize what characterizes the body as different, i.e., be mindful of the uniqueness of Christ, who is separated from others in the sense of giving himself for others in sheer grace.” This is the view of the NIGCT commentary.

What question was Paul answering by this comment? The context was a church where people were apparently eating individually, without proper concern for others. There is also a suggestion of factions. The problem wasn’t that people held the wrong theology of the Real Presence, so that for example they thought the presence was only symbolic or only spiritual. Rather, their attitudes didn’t take Christ seriously, however he is present. I think either of (2) or (3) would be consistent with the context.

I would say that Calvin’s commentary gets the sense correctly, probably based on sense (3).

“He adds the reason—because they distinguish not the Lord’s body, that is, as a sacred thing from a profane. “They handle the sacred body of Christ with unwashen hands, (Mark 7:2,)2 nay more, as if it were a thing of nought, they consider not how great is the value of it.3 They will therefore pay the penalty of so dreadful a profanation.” Let my readers keep in mind what I stated a little ago,4 that the body5 is presented to them, though their unworthiness deprives them of a participation in it.”

In case you haven’t heard it before, here’s an argument for 2, from the Anchor Bible:

“The corporate significance of the meal has already been introduced at 10:16 (cf. supra, pp. 250–253). The term “body” was applicable to the Passover societies that were formed for the festival; the group joining in the meal became a new kind of entity with such a close binding connection that all of the persons are members of each other (an idea which Paul develops in 12:12–26). This idea grips his mind, for he elsewhere calls the church the body of Christ (Rom 12:5; 1 Cor 12:13, 27; Eph 1:22–23, 4:4, 12, 16; Col 1:18, 2:17, 3:15). He thought of the body of Christ as present, active, and purified for his manifestation to the world after he was no longer present in the flesh. The body in which he is now present is the body of believers. Paul regularly refers to the physical, historical existence of Jesus Christ on earth by the term “flesh” (sarx; cf. Rom 1:3, 9:5; 2 Cor 5:16; Col 1:22; etc. The only possible exception is Rom 7:4, and the intent there is possibly a double meaning.) Body, then, in this passage may be understood to refer to the church, here recognized in its chief act of common worship, the Lord’s Supper.”

This argument seems compelling to me. It has been criticized because it uses body differently than in version 27. But in 27 he uses body and blood, where in 29 only body.

Fee (NICNT) takes a variant of (2), seeing 27-28 and 29-30 as referring to different abuses. He sees a reference to 10:17, which sees body as reflecting the believers, and particularly their unity. Note that 10:16-17 show exactly the transition from Christ's body and blood to the body of believers. That seems a convincing response to the objection.

(I also checked Hermeneia. They don't deal with this question at all, which seems pretty weird.)
 
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EvangelCatholic

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The dilemma for some Lutherans opposed to JDDJ is that the very Augsburg Confession all Lutherans must uphold supports the reunion with Rome. The beauty of Lutheran theology is than anyone [laity/ clergy] know exactly what the Lutheran position is. If some posters realize how minute the difference between "confessional" Lutherans and the rest of Lutheranism is then it becomes apparent how remote some Synods have become. This is not a criticism because I come out of the Missouri Synod/ have many family members in LCMS.

Orthodox Christians also seem to be exclusive with the Eucharist.
 
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MKJ

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actually, the issue of valid holy orders for the EO would have nothing to do with if Orthodox Christians are welcome to receive communion (under rather specific circumstances) at a Roman Catholic Mass
the issues would be "do you believe that this is the Body of Christ in a physical way" and if they were away from place where they could be ministered to by their own Church
so a Lutheran could fulfill both of those requirements and be invited to receive communion with us under extraordinary circumstances (not sure what the Lutheran Church has to say on this?)

but since we do not recognize the valid Holy Orders in Lutheranism, under no circumstance could a Catholic receive communion in a Lutheran Church


Yes, I am afraid I was unclear because I was talking about two different things, open communion and intercommunion.

I think my main point was that the Catholic Church looks at Orthodoxy - or some other groups that breaks off directly from Catholicism really - differently than they look at Protestantism. The former groups are in a state of schism from Rome but are still part of the institutional Church, but Protestants are in a sense outside the institutional Church.

So you can't really look at what happens with the Orthodox and say it shows that Rome and Lutherans or Anglicans are soon going to be in communion.
 
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MKJ

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The Catholic Church doesn't consider the Orthodox as being part of the Church but rather schismatics, while many of the Orthodox (as far as I can tell) look at Catholics as heterodox who are far from Orthodoxy.

My understanding has always been that you can only be a schismatic if you are still part of the Church. So - the SSPX are schismatics, but still Catholic. Protestants are not either. Anglicans consider themselves to be in schism from Rome, but Rome says not.
 
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GoingByzantine

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Yes, I am afraid I was unclear because I was talking about two different things, open communion and intercommunion.

I think my main point was that the Catholic Church looks at Orthodoxy - or some other groups that breaks off directly from Catholicism really - differently than they look at Protestantism. The former groups are in a state of schism from Rome but are still part of the institutional Church, but Protestants are in a sense outside the institutional Church.

So you can't really look at what happens with the Orthodox and say it shows that Rome and Lutherans or Anglicans are soon going to be in communion.

Ok, now I get what you are saying MKJ. I think the main reason for that view is because Protestants (as seen by the Catholic Church) are a breakaway from the Western rites of Catholicism. The Latin Church views itself as having total authority in the West, while the East is kind of like a grey area...if that makes any sense.
 
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Rhamiel

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Yes, I am afraid I was unclear because I was talking about two different things, open communion and intercommunion.

I think my main point was that the Catholic Church looks at Orthodoxy - or some other groups that breaks off directly from Catholicism really - differently than they look at Protestantism. The former groups are in a state of schism from Rome but are still part of the institutional Church, but Protestants are in a sense outside the institutional Church.

So you can't really look at what happens with the Orthodox and say it shows that Rome and Lutherans or Anglicans are soon going to be in communion.

ah ok
thank you

yeah, this thread seems to be going all over the place in subtle ways
 
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MKJ

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Ok, now I get what you are saying MKJ. I think the main reason for that view is because Protestants (as seen by the Catholic Church) are a breakaway from the Western rites of Catholicism. The Latin Church views itself as having total authority in the West, while the East is kind of like a grey area...if that makes any sense.

As far as I understand it it is mostly due to being without valid apostolic sucession, which is the institutional structure of the Church. So Anglicans from their perspective really were the Englicah Church in schism, up until Edward when they lost apostolic succession, and then they were a Christian body but no longer part of the institutional Church.

That's why Old Catholics or the SSPX are considered to be in schism like the Orthodox - though in the case of the SSPX you might say impaired communion.
 
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GoingByzantine

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As far as I understand it it is mostly due to being without valid apostolic sucession, which is the institutional structure of the Church. So Anglicans from their perspective really were the Englicah Church in schism, up until Edward when they lost apostolic succession, and then they were a Christian body but no longer part of the institutional Church.

That's why Old Catholics or the SSPX are considered to be in schism like the Orthodox - though in the case of the SSPX you might say impaired communion.

Yet the curious thing is that other Apostolic Churches, notably the Coptic Orthodox Church seem to accept the apostolic validity of the Church of England, especially given recent talks.
 
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EvangelCatholic

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so is this saying that the USCCB accepts the Holy Orders of the Lutheran Church?

Well, it makes it pretty clear that historic and current circumstances allow a different look at the ministry/ sacraments of Lutherans by Catholics. The issues that separated Martin Luther from the Church of Rome no longer are evident and the mutual condemnations of both Lutheran and Catholic no longer apply. What is significant for Lutheranism is that Catholics theologically accept it as "the Church" and welcome restoration of the episcopacy/ apostolic succession. Coinciding with the Dialogue has been the adoption of historic succession among those Lutheran synods that were outside apostolic succession.

In in nutshell, Lutherans and Catholics believe more alike than different from each other and that mutual belief/ consensus suggest eucharistic hospitality and eventual full communion.
 
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Rhamiel

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Well, it makes it pretty clear that historic and current circumstances allow a different look at the ministry/ sacraments of Lutherans by Catholics. The issues that separated Martin Luther from the Church of Rome no longer are evident and the mutual condemnations of both Lutheran and Catholic no longer apply. What is significant for Lutheranism is that Catholics theologically accept it as "the Church" and welcome restoration of the episcopacy/ apostolic succession. Coinciding with the Dialogue has been the adoption of historic succession among those Lutheran synods that were outside apostolic succession.

In in nutshell, Lutherans and Catholics believe more alike than different from each other and that mutual belief/ consensus suggest eucharistic hospitality and eventual full communion.

hmmm, this is all very new to me
I thought Lutherans rejected the idea of Transubstantiation whole heartedly
also, some Lutherans have women priests
I know not all do, but the Lutheran Churches supported by the States in the Nordic countries all have women priests and the ELCA has women priests, is not the ELCA the biggest Lutheran Church in the USA?
 
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