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Ecumenism

  • Thread starter GratiaCorpusChristi
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Well, I'm exited to start my first new thread in this subforum. And with that in mind, I wanted to post a (re-edited) version of something I wrote in a similar thread in GT. I think it's pretty a propos.

What do you think of attempts to bring about church unity through dialogue between representatives of the various churches and denominations of christianity?

Promoting ecumenical fellowship through common causes and activities- the pursuit of joint evangelism, social justice, creation stewardship, just peace, ethic reconciliation, and a just end to abortion- is a good and noble goal, and has historically been the focus of the twentieth century's primary ecumenical endeavors (beginning with the laudable work of the 1910 World Missionary Conference which eventually became the World Council of Churches). I believe in that. But I do also believe in hard-nosed ecumenical discussion of theological, exegetical, and historical issues. And one simply cannot substitute for the other. They are both critical to the local and global life of ecumenical Christianity. And while both may be done on the local level, through ecumenical Bible studies, through joint missionary and social work, and cross-denominational church fellowship activities, I'll stick to the professionals and their potential for genuine advances in the goal of Christian unity.

On to the rules themselves.

On each side of the discussion, there should be one conservative and one liberal (broadly speaking). That is, each side should be represented by one person for whom the ultimate goal is reunion and who genuinely believes that the differences are either misunderstanding or irrelevant, and one person who genuinely believes that the differences are real and important and perhaps insurmountable. Otherwise, it's not a genuine dialogue between representative parties; it's just er, well, I won't use that term on CF. Any thorough examination of the process of schism (Oriental and Eastern, Eastern and Western, Protestant and Catholic) and post-schismatic ecumenical debates (Justinianic, Heraclean, the Councils of Lyon II, Ferrara-Florence, Trent) shows that a major factor was the tendencies of the time and the personalities involved. In a matter as important as church unity, simply balancing out those forces goes a long way toward transcending the vicissitudes of history and focusing instead on our eschatological unity. It also helps balance out the evangelistic impulses (conservative) that can derail ecumenical discussion, and the postmodern impulses (liberal) that can achieve only a paper unity.

Second, instead of just one liberal and one conservative on each side of the debate, there should be four of each: one for each theological sub-discipline: biblical exegesis, systematic theology, church history, and pastoral care. Each discipline has its own tendencies in ecumenical debate, but in general they can all potentially go either way; it really depends on the individual scholar or churchman. Unfortunately, some past debates, successful or not, have been shaped by only one or, at best, two of these concerns. A cursory reading of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (which had the potential to be the most important ecumenical document of the past four hundred years) shows overt concern for systematic theology and secondarily for church history, and only marginal reference to biblical exegesis and pastoral care. Ironically, the JDJ was at work at a time when critical biblical studies had not yet developed the current insights on justification (and the New Perspective on Paul) that would have greatly benefited the discussion. Perhaps that's the very reason the document takes so little stock of exegesis. Until the past thirty years, the overwhelmingly dominant interpretation of Paul was a parody of Luther, with its roots in the work of Adolf von Harnack as developed by Rudolf Bultman. The JDJ was published at just that time when the tide was turning, but takes no stock of it.

Of course, the JDJ represented forty years of work with focused attention in all these areas, but even as a summary statement it falls flat. It did not result in the reunion of WLF churches and the Catholic Church (of course, it did not intend to), and therefore should have at least provided greater direction for church practice within these circles. Which brings me to my next point:

Ecumenical discussions need to have clear goals. This is a particular fault of the World and National (American) Councils of Churches. While the WCC has done some good in terms of organizing global Christianity toward some social ends (not surprising, given its origins in the 1910 World Missionary Conference), I honestly don't know how useful it has actually been in promoting Christian unity. Again, although I don't think the JDJ was a glowing success, it nevertheless is a good example for the future. Discussions should focus on a single area of theology (in that case, justification and soteriology) and should be bilateral (in that case, only the Lutheran World Federation and the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity). Yet not only should the specific area of discussion be clear, the goals should be clear as well. The JDJ makes clear that the end goal of the document is not unity between the churches, but removing one single barrier between them. Good. But at the end of the day, it had no practical effect on the issue that actually sparked the Reformation debate over justification: the practice of issuing penance as a post facto condition for absolution. Ideally, the goal of the document would not only have been to rescind anathamas that have no immediate practical effect (given that the churches will remain separated), but to also bring Lutheran and Catholic liturgical practice into some sort of unity. Historians on both sides are well aware that the issuance of penance is rooted in monastic, not apostolic, practice; that the issuance of penance is not necessarily tied to any theology of works-righteousness; and that the form of the words of absolution can be modified on either side. Would it not be possible for Catholics to issue a declaration of absolution that is absolute and not conditioned on penance, yet still demand that the penitent perform penance in order to make restitution to the offended individual or to discipline themselves in a way that would not offend Lutheran sensibilities?; would it not have been ideal for the Catholic Church to encourage Lutherans to return to the historic practice of regular private confession and absolution in a form that brought Lutheran liturgical practice into conformity with this new Catholic form?; and should this not have been the point of any discussion of the doctrine of justification to begin with?

The tragedy here is that this was entirely possible, but the goal was missed because systematic theology dominated the discussions at the expense of biblical exegesis and pastoral practice. What have we gained? A new day on the church calendar to celebrate a paper victory. I wax lyrical. More importantly, however, is to note that it was in fact possible (and, indeed, that particular goal- of creating common praxis- is even more likely than creating common doctrine in the upcoming discussions between the confessional International Lutheran Council and the PCPCU), and that it was possible because Catholic-Lutheran dialogue was conducted between two churches that were historically tightly bound together and theologically far closer than other church bodies.

This brings me to my final point: not only should the goals be clear, but the boundaries should be clear.

There is an insightful parallel here between ecumenical organizations and international political organizations. Regional political organisations like the European Union, NAFTA, and NATO, global but mission-specific institutions like the IMF, WTO, and the World Bank, and especially bilateral relationships like that forged between West Germany and France after World War II, the US-UK special relationship, the US-Israeli relationship, and the US-Japanese relationship, have all proved most successful than universal projects like the League of Nations or the UN. Whatever the pitfalls in the dialogue fostered between Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity and the Lutheran World Federation, there should be no surprise that it has been extraordinarily successful relative to other efforts. And, what's more, while the WCC hasn't produced the sort of unity it was meant to achieve, other organizations based in Geneva's Ecumenical Center, like the confessionally-centered Lutheran World Federation and the World Communion of Reformed Churches and the regional Conference of European Churches, have generally met with greater success.

(Aside from the rejection of the document by confessional Lutheran groups (including my own, the International Lutheran Council), part of the weird afterlife of the JDJ was its unilateral adoption by the World Methodist Council in 2006, despite the fact that they weren't party to the discussion and that their doctrine of justification is not discussed in the document! If only the WMC had approved a delegation that would meet with representatives of the PCPCU which would then draw up their own document that addressed the particular issues that divide Methodists from Catholics rather than Lutherans from Catholics.)

Part of the problem with large, national or international pan-Christian ecumenical organizations is that there is so little that all Christians agree on, and what we do all agree on are essentially those aspects that tend to be downplayed as the basis of unity. We all agree that the Bible is Christian Scriptures, but what that means (I mean, a Hasidic rabbi can agree that the Gospel of John is Christian Scripture), how binding it is (is it even binding in terms of faith and morals?), how many books it contains, and the place of the Scriptures vis-a-vis both tradition and life are all up for debate. The World Council of Churches pretty much limits itself to something more than Arianism, but less than Nicene orthodoxy (link), but really ends up focusing on broad statements. Its Lima Text on Baptism, Eucharist, and Ministry is hilariously vague.

But what I'm proposing is not a more narrow global organization with a narrower definition. (Well, actually, the Nicene Creed would be nice, and personally I'd go for all seven first millennial ecumenical councils because I want to see a single Catholic Church that unties Roman Catholicism, Oriental Orthodoxy, Eastern Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, and Lutheranism, but that's definition not what I'm talking about.) When it comes to specific boundaries, I don't think broad organizations are all that helpful. Take the international political organizations I listed above. Each of them are limited, but member states can be members of each mutually. Sweden is a member of the European Union, but not NATO; Norway is a member of NATO, but not the European Union; Switzerland is a member of neither; Germany is a member of both. There are parallels with certain churches in this regard.

For instance, the Churches of North and South India are members of both the Anglican Communion and the World Communion of Reformed Churches. The Lutheran Church of Australia is the only Lutheran church that is an associate member of the Lutheran World Federation and the International Lutheran Council, but it is a full member of neither.

(Another aside: Just as the JDJ is a flawed but promising example of specific bilateral talks between two global church organizations, the Porvo Communion is a flawed but promising example of regional, multilateral ecumenical outcomes; look it up)

I think ecumenical dialogue is best fostered through formal bilateral talks between churches (or international confessional organizations), like that pursued between the LWF and the PCPCU, and especially between churches that have some historical relationship. This would allow, for instance, the Anglican Communion to pursue talks simultaneously with Catholics on mutual recognition of orders (possibly a fruitful discussion with serious practical benefits), but with the Orthodox on the question of rood screens and iconostases and the two-or-three dimensional of icons (again, theologically dense but practically beneficial), and still again with Methodists on something as significant as regional reunion of churches (on the model of the Church of North India). Meanwhile, the Methodist talks might fall through because the Methodists are simultaneously talking to the Assemblies of God about nature of charismatic gifts and their use in Sunday worship, but the alternative could be the case. On an even smaller scale, denominations within the same broad tradition (the ELCA, NALC, LCMS, and WELS, for instance) should place special emphasis on healing those wounds rather than refusing to talk to one another. I'm not sure how beneficial it would be for churches that have no historical relationship to one another to engage in this sort of dialogue (where do Oriental Orthodox and Pentecostals even begin talking to one another?), but as the example above with Anglicans and Orthodox illustrates, there may be some exceptions (for instance, conservative Pentecostals and charismatic Catholics, together with scholars of early Christian spirituality like Luke Timothy Johnson and James D.G. Dunn, may produce some surprisingly insightful ecumenical biblical studies and guides to pastoral practice). And for my part, I honestly do think the deep fault like runs between my favored four (Lutheranism, Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, and Catholicism) and so I think this kind of dialogue would eventually bring about my vision for a united church (or perhaps three: a United Evangelical Catholic Orthodox Church, a United Liberal Protestant Church of Christ, and a Association of Baptistic Evangelicals and Charismatics), but it also does so on a very slow, steady basis rooted in tiny victories instead of on grandiose visions that shatter on the rocks of bad history.

And in the meantime, we absolutely should continue the work begun by the World Missionary Conference and work on both shared evangelism and shared social engagement, not only at the global and regional levels but at the local level as well.

So I've outlined five absolute ground rules for the discussions. 1. Parity between liberals ecumenists and conservative confessionalists on each side of discussions. 2. Equal input from historians, theologians, exegetes, and pastoral practitioners. 3. Limited organizational structures with clear confessional and/or regional boundaries. 4. Limited dialogue topics. 5. Clear dialogue goals that address not only the exegetical and theological issues on paper, but have practical effects in the churches.

Finally, sixth, discussion cannot proceed if we are unwilling to open each day with worship and each discussion with prayer. Although many of us cannot commune with each other (especially traditional Lutherans, Catholics, and Orthodox), that should not prevent us from having daily communion services of the sort initiated between the pope and the ecumenical patriarch (one ceremony in one place, but with a double consecration and separate but simultaneous distribution) or found often in military chapels, and prayer offered by all participants on some sort of rotating basis at the opening of each common meal and each dialogue session. If daily communion is not part of a participant church's tradition, they needn't commune, and a homily might not be the best idea of its the conservative historian's or systematic theologian's turn to officiate, but there are ways around it. The important thing is that we gain a vision of worshiping together, which is the eschatological ideal to which we strive on this side of history.
 
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Anhelyna

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GratiaCorpusChristi

May I ask about your source for something you have said in the last paragraph ?

daily communion services of the sort initiated between the pope and the ecumenical patriarch (one ceremony in one place, but with a double consecration and separate but simultaneous distribution)

I have honestly never heard of this and I really cannot see it happening .

Yes there have been , indeed there are times when both the EP and the Pope are in the same Church for a service - but they do not Concelebrate nor , to my knowledge, and of course I could be wrong :) , has the Pope ever been behind the Iconostas when the EP is Serving Liturgy [ the Eucharistic Service ] and nor has the EP been at the Altar when the Pope is Celebrating Mass .

Both have been at the same service of Vespers but whoever is not Serving/Celebrating is given a throne of honour outside the Altar/Iconostas
 
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hedrick

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The most direct progress seems to be among your three groups. The mainline churches in the US are negotiating full communion agreements. It's reasonable to see that eventually including all of the traditional mainline churches, plus some of the Anabaptists. Among the Catholic bodies, I think Catholic and Orthodox stand at least some change of communion.

Anglican and Lutheran are interesting because they have at least some connection with both of these. However it's going to be a challenge to be in communion with both Catholic / EO and the largely Reformed mainline group. Particularly since the role of women and gays is going to be a big issue. Perhaps the LCMS and Continuing Episcopal church could develop communion with the Catholics, and the ELCA and mainline Episcopal church with the the mainline.

Personally I consider closing communion to be a sufficiently outrageous act that I'm a bit unclear about the goal of agreements with churches that don't have open communion. Although the Presbyterian / Catholic agreement on mutual recognition of Baptism does seem useful.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Well, I'm exited to start my first new thread in this subforum. And with that in mind, I wanted to post a (re-edited) version of something I wrote in a similar thread in GT. I think it's pretty a propos.

What do you think of attempts to bring about church unity through dialogue between representatives of the various churches and denominations of christianity?

Promoting ecumenical fellowship through common causes and activities- the pursuit of joint evangelism, social justice, creation stewardship, just peace, ethic reconciliation, and a just end to abortion- is a good and noble goal, and has historically been the focus of the twentieth century's primary ecumenical endeavors (beginning with the laudable work of the 1910 World Missionary Conference which eventually became the World Council of Churches). I believe in that. But I do also believe in hard-nosed ecumenical discussion of theological, exegetical, and historical issues. And one simply cannot substitute for the other. They are both critical to the local and global life of ecumenical Christianity. And while both may be done on the local level, through ecumenical Bible studies, through joint missionary and social work, and cross-denominational church fellowship activities, I'll stick to the professionals and their potential for genuine advances in the goal of Christian unity.

On to the rules themselves.

On each side of the discussion, there should be one conservative and one liberal (broadly speaking). That is, each side should be represented by one person for whom the ultimate goal is reunion and who genuinely believes that the differences are either misunderstanding or irrelevant, and one person who genuinely believes that the differences are real and important and perhaps insurmountable. Otherwise, it's not a genuine dialogue between representative parties; it's just er, well, I won't use that term on CF. Any thorough examination of the process of schism (Oriental and Eastern, Eastern and Western, Protestant and Catholic) and post-schismatic ecumenical debates (Justinianic, Heraclean, the Councils of Lyon II, Ferrara-Florence, Trent) shows that a major factor was the tendencies of the time and the personalities involved. In a matter as important as church unity, simply balancing out those forces goes a long way toward transcending the vicissitudes of history and focusing instead on our eschatological unity. It also helps balance out the evangelistic impulses (conservative) that can derail ecumenical discussion, and the postmodern impulses (liberal) that can achieve only a paper unity.

Second, instead of just one liberal and one conservative on each side of the debate, there should be four of each: one for each theological sub-discipline: biblical exegesis, systematic theology, church history, and pastoral care. Each discipline has its own tendencies in ecumenical debate, but in general they can all potentially go either way; it really depends on the individual scholar or churchman. Unfortunately, some past debates, successful or not, have been shaped by only one or, at best, two of these concerns. A cursory reading of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (which had the potential to be the most important ecumenical document of the past four hundred years) shows overt concern for systematic theology and secondarily for church history, and only marginal reference to biblical exegesis and pastoral care. Ironically, the JDJ was at work at a time when critical biblical studies had not yet developed the current insights on justification (and the New Perspective on Paul) that would have greatly benefited the discussion. Perhaps that's the very reason the document takes so little stock of exegesis. Until the past thirty years, the overwhelmingly dominant interpretation of Paul was a parody of Luther, with its roots in the work of Adolf von Harnack as developed by Rudolf Bultman. The JDJ was published at just that time when the tide was turning, but takes no stock of it.

Of course, the JDJ represented forty years of work with focused attention in all these areas, but even as a summary statement it falls flat. It did not result in the reunion of WLF churches and the Catholic Church (of course, it did not intend to), and therefore should have at least provided greater direction for church practice within these circles. Which brings me to my next point:

Ecumenical discussions need to have clear goals. This is a particular fault of the World and National (American) Councils of Churches. While the WCC has done some good in terms of organizing global Christianity toward some social ends (not surprising, given its origins in the 1910 World Missionary Conference), I honestly don't know how useful it has actually been in promoting Christian unity. Again, although I don't think the JDJ was a glowing success, it nevertheless is a good example for the future. Discussions should focus on a single area of theology (in that case, justification and soteriology) and should be bilateral (in that case, only the Lutheran World Federation and the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity). Yet not only should the specific area of discussion be clear, the goals should be clear as well. The JDJ makes clear that the end goal of the document is not unity between the churches, but removing one single barrier between them. Good. But at the end of the day, it had no practical effect on the issue that actually sparked the Reformation debate over justification: the practice of issuing penance as a post facto condition for absolution. Ideally, the goal of the document would not only have been to rescind anathamas that have no immediate practical effect (given that the churches will remain separated), but to also bring Lutheran and Catholic liturgical practice into some sort of unity. Historians on both sides are well aware that the issuance of penance is rooted in monastic, not apostolic, practice; that the issuance of penance is not necessarily tied to any theology of works-righteousness; and that the form of the words of absolution can be modified on either side. Would it not be possible for Catholics to issue a declaration of absolution that is absolute and not conditioned on penance, yet still demand that the penitent perform penance in order to make restitution to the offended individual or to discipline themselves in a way that would not offend Lutheran sensibilities?; would it not have been ideal for the Catholic Church to encourage Lutherans to return to the historic practice of regular private confession and absolution in a form that brought Lutheran liturgical practice into conformity with this new Catholic form?; and should this not have been the point of any discussion of the doctrine of justification to begin with?

The form of the words of absolution in the sacrament of penance are these:
God, the Father of mercies, (2 Cor. 1:3)
through the death and resurrection of His Son
has reconciled the world to Himself (2 Cor. 5:19; cf. Rom. 11:15; Col.1:20)
and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; (John 20:21-23)
through the ministry of the Church (2 Cor. 5:18-20)
may God give you pardon and peace, (Luke 7:50; Col. 1:14)
and I absolve you from your sins
in the name of the Father, and of the Son, +
and of the Holy Spirit.
These are translated from Latin words which I show below:
Deus, Pater misericordiárum,
qui per mortem et resurrectiónem Filii sui
mundum sibi reconciliávit
et Spiritum Sanctum effúdit in remissiónem peccatórum,
per ministérium Ecclésiæ
indulgéntiam tibi tribuat et pacem.
Et ego te absólvo a peccátis tuis
in nómine Patris, et Filii, +
et Spíritus Sancti.
... snipped to fit the limit of 1,500 words for a single post ...
 
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MKJ

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The most direct progress seems to be among your three groups. The mainline churches in the US are negotiating full communion agreements. It's reasonable to see that eventually including all of the traditional mainline churches, plus some of the Anabaptists. Among the Catholic bodies, I think Catholic and Orthodox stand at least some change of communion.

Anglican and Lutheran are interesting because they have at least some connection with both of these. However it's going to be a challenge to be in communion with both Catholic / EO and the largely Reformed mainline group. Particularly since the role of women and gays is going to be a big issue. Perhaps the LCMS and Continuing Episcopal church could develop communion with the Catholics, and the ELCA and mainline Episcopal church with the the mainline.

Personally I consider closing communion to be a sufficiently outrageous act that I'm a bit unclear about the goal of agreements with churches that don't have open communion. Although the Presbyterian / Catholic agreement on mutual recognition of Baptism does seem useful.

I think though that there is a serious problem in that there seems to be a real push among some of these groups to create agreements where it isn't all that clear that they actually do have agreement on important issues. As an Anglican, for example, I have some pretty serious reservations about the agreement with the Lutherans and the way it was handled, and that is not an uncommon reaction when Anglicans who care at all about theology and practice find out the details of that arrangement.

Even questions of political organization seem to make little sense. For example, the Anglican Communion and ECUSA have made it clear that they do not accept as normative different Anglican groups under different bishops in the same geographical area. there are good historical reasons for that and it makes logical sense, and even those who think that there needs to be room for more under cetain circumstances tend to see why that is normative.

And yet, ECUSA is in an arrangement of full inter-communion with the Lutherans that allow even the trading of clergy. But there seems to be no problem with seperate administrative and scclesial structures, Lutheran and Anglican, operating in the same area, with the equivalent of two bishops, no plan to unify those structures in the future.

It's contradictory and illogical.

I end to take these agreements with a grain of salt, and in fact I wonder if they aren't likely to end up being destructive, with the theology and practice becoming more and more generalized.
 
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EvangelCatholic

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I am interested in anything ecumenical and how it is affecting the Church and look forward to a discussion of how this is occurring throughout the Church.

I am especially encouraged by the Lutheran-Roman Catholic Dialogue, subsequent declaration [JDDJ] and commission on unity. The recommendations are quite extraordinary; the impact on these two Reformation-era Churches and the rest of Christianity will be momentous, in my opinion.

The conclusions agreed upon by Catholic and Lutheran participants is that our commonality on doctrine and openness to consider different interpretations [i.e. Marion feasts] coupled with acceptance of Papal authority reflect consensus and permit reunion. If Lutherans return to Rome post Vatican II then what does that suggest to other Christian denominations, especially traditional bodies [Anglican, Reformed]?
 
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hedrick

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As an Anglican, for example, I have some pretty serious reservations about the agreement with the Lutherans and the way it was handled, and that is not an uncommon reaction when Anglicans who care at all about theology and practice find out the details of that arrangement.

Understood. The PCUSA has somewhat more restricted agreements. Mostly Reformed bodies, plus ELCA and Moravians. There were extensive discussions with the Lutherans, Marburg Revisited. They did not reach a single formula on communion, but recognized the differences as acceptable diversity.

There's always administrative issues when clergy serve in a different denomination. There are procedures to address this, requiring the the person demonstrate knowledge of a willingness to support the polity of the Church in which they will serve, and establishing oversight. http://download.elca.org/ELCA Resource Repository/A_Formula_Of_Agreement.pdf
 
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MKJ

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There's always administrative issues when clergy serve in a different denomination. There are procedures to address this, requiring the the person demonstrate knowledge of a willingness to support the polity of the Church in which they will serve, and establishing oversight. http://download.elca.org/ELCA Resource Repository/A_Formula_Of_Agreement.pdf


I don't think this is really what I meant. I am more concerned with the fact that they have accepted a structure of church governance that is in fact contradictory to how we understand church governance. That is what has happened with having Lutheran and Anglican structures overlapping. You see a similar thing in the New World with the Orthodox churches, but they realize is is a problem of historical circumstances and something that will need to be sorted out. Another example is that established Lutheran clergy were not necessarily required to be reordained to serve in Anglican parishes - rather only future ordinations would be made apostolic - despite the fact that many Anglicans have a view of apostolicity which would say that ordination has an ontological effect.

THis seems to be pretty characteristic - essentially in order to accommodate the new agreement perspectives historic and also current were essentially marginalized.

Overall my impression is that they they don't necessarily care all that much about any kind of theological coherence. In the end, I don't see how that can be anything but destructive.
 
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EvangelCatholic

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I don't think this is really what I meant. I am more concerned with the fact that they have accepted a structure of church governance that is in fact contradictory to how we understand church governance. That is what has happened with having Lutheran and Anglican structures overlapping. You see a similar thing in the New World with the Orthodox churches, but they realize is is a problem of historical circumstances and something that will need to be sorted out. Another example is that established Lutheran clergy were not necessarily required to be reordained to serve in Anglican parishes - rather only future ordinations would be made apostolic - despite the fact that many Anglicans have a view of apostolicity which would say that ordination has an ontological effect.

THis seems to be pretty characteristic - essentially in order to accommodate the new agreement perspectives historic and also current were essentially marginalized.

Overall my impression is that they they don't necessarily care all that much about any kind of theological coherence. In the end, I don't see how that can be anything but destructive.

Apostolic succession is viewed as a concession from Lutherans since we recognize presbyter ordination as valid historically to the Early Church and the circumstances of episcopal denial [Germany] in the holy Roman empire.

In the Lutheran-Roman Catholic Dialogue the issue of a valid priesthood is solved once north American Lutherans restored apostolic succession via the Anglican Church. Accepting the Pope as the leader of the Church is also what Lutherans agreed upon; that may be a hard pill for some Lutherans to swallow. ^_^
 
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hedrick

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I don't think this is really what I meant. I am more concerned with the fact that they have accepted a structure of church governance that is in fact contradictory to how we understand church governance. That is what has happened with having Lutheran and Anglican structures overlapping.

i can speak only for the ELCA / PCUSA agreement. We understand that there are different structures. But that doesn't necessarily prevent joint work or even orderly exchange of pastors. The orderly exchange doesn't involve confusing or relaxing the structures. Rather, it says that someone will serve for a time in the other church. During that service, they accept the structures of the church they've serving in.

Of course this doesn't work if you think a specific church structure is essential to the Gospel. My tradition does believe that our structure comes from Scripture, but we don't say that it's essential to the Gospel. Historically we've been willing to accept episcopal structures when there's a reason to do so. Indeed there have been Reformed churches with bishops, e.g the Hungarian Reformed Church, and for a time the Anglican church was Reformed. Thus we don't have a problem with a full communion agreement with a church having an episcopal structure.

Thus for us at least there's no problem with that kind of exchange.

If you feel that an episcopal structure is essential, then of course you won't find full communion with a non-episcopal church acceptable.
 
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MKJ

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i can speak only for the ELCA / PCUSA agreement. We understand that there are different structures. But that doesn't necessarily prevent joint work or even orderly exchange of pastors. The orderly exchange doesn't involve confusing or relaxing the structures. Rather, it says that someone will serve for a time in the other church. During that service, they accept the structures of the church they've serving in.

Of course this doesn't work if you think a specific church structure is essential to the Gospel. My tradition does believe that our structure comes from Scripture, but we don't say that it's essential to the Gospel. Historically we've been willing to accept episcopal structures when there's a reason to do so. Indeed there have been Reformed churches with bishops, e.g the Hungarian Reformed Church, and for a time the Anglican church was Reformed. Thus we don't have a problem with a full communion agreement with a church having an episcopal structure.

Thus for us at least there's no problem with that kind of exchange.

If you feel that an episcopal structure is essential, then of course you won't find full communion with a non-episcopal church acceptable.

Yes, the idea that ordination in the episcopal lines is an essential to the priesthood is one of the historic viewpoints of Anglicanism. Although there has also been the other view, the way that Anglicanism has held them together has been by making sure that the position with more "requirements" is always held to formally. That's how they have worked in the past in a number of areas of difference between more protestant and catholic approaches.

However, in a number of agreements now in different places, they have been managed in such as way that one of those historic Anglican positions is more or less repudiated.

It tends to make the triumph over divisions healed a little bit of a joke.
 
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MKJ

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One way the Anglican Church is the 'via media' is that it literally provided Lutherans [north America] a bridge toward eucharistic hospitality with Roman Catholics.

Neither Anglicans nor Lutherans are allowed to partake in Catholic churches, and there are no indications that they will be.
 
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hedrick

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Yes, the idea that ordination in the episcopal lines is an essential to the priesthood is one of the historic viewpoints of Anglicanism. Although there has also been the other view, the way that Anglicanism has held them together has been by making sure that the position with more "requirements" is always held to formally. That's how they have worked in the past in a number of areas of difference between more protestant and catholic approaches.

However, in a number of agreements now in different places, they have been managed in such as way that one of those historic Anglican positions is more or less repudiated.

It tends to make the triumph over divisions healed a little bit of a joke.

Assuming that this is the actual agreement that's in force with the ELCA, An Agreement of Full Communion - Called to Common Mission | Episcopal Church, it does not abandon the traditional Anglican position. Rather, it temporarily suspends it for currently ordained ELCA priests and bishops, but mandates that all future ordinations and consecrations will follow traditional Anglican rules.

The agreement with Moravians has similar provisions.

This would be more difficult with Reformed bodies, since most of us don't have officers that correspond to bishops. However there have been proposals in the past to identify officers that could be regarded by the Episcopal Church as bishops. I don't know of any proposals like that currently on the table within the PCUSA.
 
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MKJ

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Assuming that this is the actual agreement that's in force with the ELCA, An Agreement of Full Communion - Called to Common Mission | Episcopal Church, it does not abandon the traditional Anglican position. Rather, it temporarily suspends it for currently ordained ELCA priests and bishops, but mandates that all future ordinations and consecrations will follow traditional Anglican rules.

The agreement with Moravians has similar provisions.

This would be more difficult with Reformed bodies, since most of us don't have officers that correspond to bishops. However there have been proposals in the past to identify officers that could be regarded by the Episcopal Church as bishops. I don't know of any proposals like that currently on the table within the PCUSA.


Yes, it really does. You can't somehow suspend the ontological nature of ordination.

If a Lutheran or other minister who has not been reordained comes to preside at a Eucharist at an Anglican parish, according to this view that person is not in fact a priest and there is no Eucharist, or certainly it isn't a dependable claim that there is one, any more than if some guy off the street did it.

That is a serious problem - by making the agreement work that way, they have totally undermined a significant and historic Anglican understanding of Holy Orders.

You are right, it did not start with the Lutherans, but it is all part and parcel of the same theological sloppiness.

And what is most ironic is they do this sort of thing while still wanting to claim valid holy orders to the Catholics and Orthodox based on the traditional understanding.

Its a total mess.
 
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EvangelCatholic

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Neither Anglicans nor Lutherans are allowed to partake in Catholic churches, and there are no indications that they will be.

That is not correct unless you underestimate and are unfamiliar with the 50+ years of Dialogue between Lutherans and Roman Catholics. Have you read the magisterial document, the Joint Catholic-Lutheran Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification [JDDJ], urged/ signed by Pope John Paul and the Lutheran-Roman Catholic Commission on Unity's document?: From Conflict to Communion. Lutheran Catholic Common Commemoration of the Reformation in 2017. Report of the Lutheran-Roman Catholic Commission for Unity (2013)

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

I've had this discussion with another Episcopalian recently and am a bit perplexed by the either denial or trivializing of the Lutheran-Roman Catholic relationship [suggesting: "sister communion"].

I will gladly submit citations to support the call for at least Eucharistic hospitality between Lutheran and Catholic parishes and the furthering of progress of this remarkable ecumenical development.
 
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EvangelCatholic

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I posted these excerpts of the Dialogue between Catholics and Lutherans on another thread:

95. What follows for the relations between our churches from the analysis above, supported by the biblical and historical explanations that follow below? Building upon the earlier Lutheran-Roman Catholic dialogues, Eucharist and Ministry and Facing Unity,156 we propose steps toward a full, mutual recognition and reconciliation of our ministries and the ultimate goal of full communion. We are aware of common challenges to overcome. Nevertheless, the mutual recognition of ministries need not be an all-or-nothing matter and should not be reduced to a simple judgment about validity or invalidity. In order to assess the degree of our koinonia in ordained ministry, a more nuanced discernment is needed reflecting the way that an ordained ministry serves the proclamation of the gospel and the administration of the sacraments, stands in continuity with the apostolic tradition, and serves communion among churches.
The Church as Koinonia of Salvation: Its Structures and Ministrieshttp://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...ecumenical/lutheran/koinonia-of-salvation.cfm

3) Should not creative efforts be made to discover a form of institutional relationship between the Catholic and the Lutheran churches which would express magisterial mutuality and would correspond to the converging state of their traditions? The present Catholic authorization of some sacramental sharing with the Orthodox, who do not acknowledge papal infallibility, shows more flexibility in Catholic thought and practice than was anticipated a few decades ago. Should the current developments in our two churches lead to analogous authorizations regarding sacramental sharing between Catholics and Lutherans?
Theological Studies | A journal of academic theology

Furthermore, they report having found
“serious defects in the arguments customarily used against the validity
of the Eucharistic ministry of the Evangelical-Lutheran churches”,
and add that they “see no persuasive reason to deny the possibility of
the Roman Catholic Church recognising the validity of this ministry”.
The Roman Catholic dialogue group then appeals to the authorities
of their church to “recognise the validity of the Evangelical-Lutheran
ministry and, correspondingly, the presence of the body and blood
of Jesus Christ in the Eucharistic celebrations of the Evangelical-Lutheran
churches”.49
http://www.koed.hu/vocation/johngeorge.pdf

This task is so urgent since
Catholics and Lutherans have never ceased to confess together the faith
in the »one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church
http://www.lutheranworld.org/sites/d...0Communion.pdf
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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My quote function is not working.

MJK; you are 100 % correct.

The rest may dream on. Catholic altars are closed to non Catholics. Period. That is the pure and simple truth.

Confessional Lutheran altars are closed to both Catholics and liberal Lutherans, and everyone else for that matter.

Joint declarations and on going dialogues are not going to change this. Catholic theology, teaching, practice and belief are clear; so is ours. It's great to be optimistic, but optimism is not always healthy when it leads to delusion.
 
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GoingByzantine

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My quote function is not working.

MJK; you are 100 % correct.

The rest may dream on. Catholic altars are closed to non Catholics. Period. That is the pure and simple truth.

Confessional Lutheran altars are closed to both Catholics and liberal Lutherans, and everyone else for that matter.

Joint declarations and on going dialogues are not going to change this. Catholic theology, teaching, practice and belief are clear; so is ours. It's great to be optimistic, but optimism is not always healthy when it leads to delusion.

I specialize in finding exceptions. ^_^

Guidelines for admission to the Eucharist between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East

Members of the Assyrian Church of the East may partake in communion at a Chaldean Catholic Church, and vice versa.

In addition, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox may receive communion at a Catholic Church if they ask for it and are properly disposed.
 
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