Ecumenism...

[Akathist]

"3. Paul said that we as Christians should be of one mind and have no divisions amongst us. When confronted with Paul’s claim, many of the Protestants I speak to say they are united over the primary or important doctrines, which deal with our salvation. They, however, disagree on the secondary or unimportant ones that don’t affect our salvation.
The third challenge is to find in the Scriptures this idea of primary and secondary doctrines."


one of the Willard preacher's contentions with differences between protestant and orthodox doctrine.


ps. sorry, this is choirfiend logged in on jckstraw72's computer.

Choirfiend,

I do like your point here. I am not convinced that the differences in some of the doctinal views is sufficient to effect "Salvation" the way that Protestants define "Salvation".

But it may effect theosis. At least, for me personally, the protestant faith was not helping me grow in theosis.

 

[Teke]

I didn't read the article. But as a convert to Orthodoxy, I can tell you that it was a "seek and find" mission. The vanity of pride had to be overcome and the truth revealed to convict/convince me.

I agree with my bishop, on not being politically correct and agreeing to ecumenism in forms. But I also do not agree with telling peoples children their parents are wrong about what or how they believe. It is their faith, not mine. And I do not know their lives or how God is leading them.

Our Lord said if we SEEK Him we will find Him. (for me there was a long time of seeking with only the scriptures). And the epistles tell us WHY.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.


We rest in His great hope.

 

[InnerPhyre]

I respect tremendously the average Catholic parishoner who is trying to restore traditional Catholicism to the American Church or anywhere else where things have gotten messy. I respect their ties to the early Church. I believe their sacraments are valid.

I have a very very hard time respecting the higher level clergy in their church though. So domineering and controlling and arrogant from what I've seen. I would like it very much if we could have fruitful meetings and talks with them. I just don't hold out much hope for it.

 

[NewToLife]

Hmmm, since i became Orthodox I've probably lost a fair bit of respect for much of what happens in protestantism, I guess the more I learn the truth the more I can see the problems with a lot of what is taught in protestantism and post protestantism.

My views on Catholicism have become quite complex I think, I was never particularly anti Catholic as a protestant and I had some respect for Catholicism already when I converted. Since i converted I've come to realise that Catholicism is very close to us but at the same time is utterly divided from us. This is the great tragedy, that Catholicism is so very close to Orthodoxy yet the nature of the things that separate us mean that Rome will probably never again be Orthodox and will likely always have designs on us as potential subjects for the See of Rome.

The falling away of Rome is in my opinion the greatest tragedy in the history of the Church. Yet balanced against all this Rome still preserves the faith to a greater degree than any other denomination outside of Orthodoxy ( in this sense I include the Coptics as Orthodox with us in anticipation of the time when we are hopefully again in full communion ).

 

[Virgil the Roman]

The chasm that divides both Orthodox and Roman Catholics is not as wide,as one would think, though. yes, there is some abuse, but alot of The Roman Catholic church remains intact.

 

[Asinner]

I would say that in converting to Orthodoxy ppl fall in love with the Truth in a way they never knew they could, and thus every other church pales in comparison and they want everyone else to find the same thing.

.....and ive found myself having much more repect for the Catholic Church since becoming Orthodox

Ditto.

 

[prodromos]

The chasm that divides both Orthodox and Roman Catholics is not as wide,as one would think

It both is and isn't, and the fact that Catholics generally cannot see how wide the divide is while to Orthodox it is all too clear, demonstrates just how ontologically different we are.

John

 

[Ioan cel Nou]

I'd agree with others, as an ex-Protestant, that my respect for Roman Catholicism has greatly increased since being Orthodox (it could hardly have decreased given the terribly anti-RC environment I grew up in). However, I still see great flaws in Roman Catholicism and, frankly, a yawning chasm (though not so great as with most Protestants) between us and the RCC. Sometimes I feel that the more pro-Roman Orthodox (and they aren't necessarily all ecumenists) tend to see the legitimate arguments of ex-Protestants as a kind of imported Romaphobia simply on the grounds that we once were Protestant. That can get seriously annoying as the truth doesn't change depending on whose mouth it comes out of.

James

 

[irishseventysix]

Haven't finished the whole article just yet,.. But it looks very good. I agree with the author so far. I've noticed the same trend. Many former Protestants take their fundamentalism into the Orthodox Church. Their doctrine changes, significantly,.. But not their attitude towards dogma. Nor their attitude towards the RCC. Imo a very unhealthy and unwelcome trend. One I hope will be overcome. It has come so far that I've had my Orthodoxy questioned more than once for opposing this trend and for taking a decisively positive stance on true ecumenism (such as suggested by Fr. N. Afanasieff, Fr. Sergius Bulgakov, and today Fr. Michael Plekon, prof. Peter Bouteneff to name a few significant names in ecumenical relations).

Gregorios

I feel closer to my Catholic friends than before I became Orthodox. Maybe part of the reason is that my Catholic friends who "get it" (my words), who aren't nominal, helped me along in opening me up to the Orthodox understandings of the intercessions of the saints, veneration of Mary, the DP, sexuality, and the Real Presence in the Eucharist. Of course, the EOC and the RCC differ in some important ways with these issues. But when looking at both from an Evangelical Protestant perspective, they appeared to be in the same camp.

Oh, and those aforementioned Catholic friends were the ones (of my non-Orthie friends) who rejoiced the most vehemently when I became Orthodox.

Now, when it comes to Evangelical Protestants, I have a hard time keeping myself from getting uppity, partly because of what still remains of the bitterness I had toward what I experienced as an EP and especially one that was a Calvinist Premillenialist, has spoken in tongues, went to a Baptist-leaning Bible College and a few Emergent churches for a few years.

That bitterness needs to die, and I need to be less defensive about my faith and more humble and loving without running from speaking the Truth.

 

[MariaRegina]

What is the DP?

BTW: EP usually refers to the Ecumenical Patriarch. Do protestants usually use EP for Evangelical Protestant?

 

[irishseventysix]

What is the DP?

BTW: EP usually refers to the Ecumenical Patriarch. Do protestants usually use EP for Evangelical Protestant?

No...I was just sick or typing out "Evangelical Protestant". I thought about typing EvProt.

The DP is the Death Penalty.

 

[kamikat]

Really? I have had the exact opposite experience since embracing Orthodox Christianity.

Same here, Michael!!


kamikat

 

[kamikat]

Wow, I see a huge difference in attitudes towards the RCC from former Protestants and former Catholics. The more I learn about Orthodoxy and the more I practice living the Orthodox life, the more I realize how much seperates Orthodoxy and Catholicism. As for individuals, well, I had so many Catholic friends and relatives tell me that I was damning my soul for leaving RCC. I don't have much respect for those Catholics. I have respect for anyone who truly loves to Lord and is happy that I have found a way to grow in my relationship with Him.
kamikat

 

[OnTheWay]

I like Catholics. I like it over at OBOB. Everyone knows what the theological differences are, and others more informed than myself can continue that debate if they like. As for myself, I feel pretty at home with Catholics. They aren't iconoclastic, they properly respect the Theotokos and Saints, believe in the Eucharst, no debates on whether homosexuality is okay will you find, and quite a few other reasons.
I think some people have problems with the Catholics because of the rules, especially those that find themselves or loved ones on the wrong side of those rules. I don't agree with all of them myself, obviously or I'd be Catholic. However, it doesn't really affect my respect for the RCC.

Some converts to both sides, EOC and RCC, feel the need to get up and really launch an offensive against the side they didn't pick. I've never been inclined to do that. Also I think experiences here on CF, especially in GH, have increased my soldarity with Catholics. Being Orthodox we're pretty much always on the "Catholic" side of fundie/evang protestant attacks.

 

[Teke]

I saw some problems with doctrine and teachings as a Protestant, and also saw how it was connected with RC teachings. I just didn't make the connection till I had some more book learning.

If we don't seek and study, the Holy Spirit hasn't much to work with.
And when your seeking, you don't want to be ignorant about the differences. I just wish the Lord would led me a shorter route, All those Protestant theologies can wear a soul down trying to make heads or tails of them.

While us converted Orthodox are not the most learned on the early fathers (we do work on that), we are quite well versed in scripture as that is all we had before Orthodoxy. And to the Orthodox defense of the faith, we can make a darn good arguement with those who want to go the scripture route. As there is no contradiction whatsoeever that I have found with Orthodoxy and scripture.

So don't worry about us converts, we're just bringing more clarity to the truth of Orthodoxy.

 

[ModernDaySpyridon]

Well, after a weekend away, it's time for me to chime in!

But you guys they do hit on a good point that a lot of converts to Orthodoxy do tend to get very anti-Catholic for some reason. I have noticed it a lot actually.

I have noticed it as well, and it's not just anti-RC, it seems to extend to everyone who disagrees with them.

.....and I've found myself having much more repect for the Catholic Church since becoming Orthodox

As have I, although with qualifiers (see below )

For me, the important thing is that the "essentials of the faith" are agreed upon. I find that the Orthodox churches, the RCC and conservative Protestant churches, such as my Baptist church, agree on the "essentials of the faith." Beyond that, the NT teaches us not to argue about doctrinal differnces. I have no doubt that I will see OCers, RCCers and others when we all get home.

Two questions (or groups of questions, rather ).

1) What are the "essentials of the faith" you invoke? Are they specific theologies, and if so, which theologies are they? Who determines which beliefs make the cut?

2) Where in the NT does it teach us "not to argue about doctrinal differnces (sp)?"

A concern I have with ecumenism is that far too often it is reduced to a "least-common-denomenator" approach that seeks to be as inoffensive as possibly and to seek unity at any cost. There are great differences between the EOC and the RCC, and even greater gaps between them and Protestant church, especially the EvProt's (thanks to irishseventysix for the new abb. )

Honestly, I don't think that true reconciliation will ever occur with the EOC and the Protestant denom's, simply because there are such basic, fundamental differences, from definitions of "grace" and "salvation", to the EOC's beliefs about tradition and authority, both of which are antithetical of most EvProt beliefs.
I know this because I was one. Not only was I raised in it my whole life, but my grandparents were Baptist missionaries (to Alaska, ironically enough, where the ROC had been for many years already) and I attended one of the finest evangelical bible colleges around (who shall remain unnamed, but whose motto was "If it's Bible you want, you want Multnomah"....oops )

However, even though I remain skeptical of reconciliation b/w them, we should still strive for a spirit of charity in our relations with each other, and not be reduced to bickering and hasty generalizations.

 

[copticorthodoxy]

( in this sense I include the Coptics as Orthodox with us in anticipation of the time when we are hopefully again in full communion ).

 

[irishseventysix]

I'm doing the same, coptic. I'm doing the same...

 

[copticorthodoxy]

I'm doing the same, coptic. I'm doing the same...

I hope to see the unity day between us

 

[OnTheWay]

Converts tend to make natural apologists, simply because there are specific reasons they chose their faith. Everyone at some point has to make a choice about whether they accept the religion of their parents or reject it. People that reject it, and go on to something else generally spend a lot of time researching their prospects, praying, and so forth. This process tends to leave them informed about their own faith, as well as others they didn't chose. Many want to enter the arena of those still searching and share their own experience and reasoning. The problem at times develops when someone does this sharing not in telling someone why they are Orthodox or Roman Catholic, but why they aren't Orthodox or Roman Catholic.