Ecumenism

[plainswolf]

To compare Trent to Vatican II is laughable.

Thas an understatement!

J.M.J.
plainswolf

 

[Rising_Suns]

and what was wrong with the Church that it was needed?

I don't know what Michelle's answer would be, but I'd say, in a nutshell; not enough horizontality and not enough ecumenism.

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

I thought what you wrote above was well put and I could almost come to terms with it. May I ask you this though...what exactly is 'the spirit of Vatican II' that you refer to and what was wrong with the Church that it was needed?

Regards.

Gerg , what would your respone be if I told you the bible must be at fault for the reformation since Luther in others said they did it in the Spirit of the Bible?

 

[Alexis OCA]

Gerg , what would your respone be if I told you the bible must be at fault for the reformation since Luther in others said they did it in the Spirit of the Bible?

Nice try.

 

[Alexis OCA]

I don't know what Michelle's answer would be, but I'd say, in a nutshell; not enough horizontality and not enough ecumenism.

Yeah we're all much better off with all this ecumenism floating around.

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

Nice try.

Then I provide that same response to your challanges and leave it at that.

 

[nyj]

Wow, yo do have a bright outlook.

Yes, my advisor at work calls me Mr. Happy.

Then do tell dear friend where all the novelty and new ways of proceeding came from. From what seed did these things germanate?

Modernism. But I'm confident the Catholic Church will not fall into such heresy and as such, when we read official statements issued forth from her, we can have confidence that "this is the way things should be".

To compare Trent to Vatican II is laughable.

Really? I thought Vatican II was a valid council. Am I mistaken?

 

[plainswolf]

Just why was Vatican II called?

J.M.J.
plainswolf

 

[Michelina]

Amazingly prophetic. Obviously Pius XII saw these destructive forces in motion in the 1920s and 1930s, long before they came out in the open.

Prophetic, yes. But nothing new. The higher echelons of the Church had been aware of, and fighting, Liberalism since the first half of the 19th century. Pius IX convoked Vat I because of it. Leo XIII and St Pius X fought Modernism (i.e. ecclesial Liberalism) throughout their Pontificates. Every Pope since Pius IX has addressed it directly, with the exception of Pope John Paul I, who was known as the greatest anti-Socialist in Italy (and perhaps Europe).

where all the novelty and new ways of proceeding came from. From what seed did these things germinate?

Modernism, which had very subtly and unobtrusively infiltrated the seminaries during the 20th century, is the source of the hijacking of Vat II. Look at how many priests of the time embraced it immediately after the Council. The seeds of destruction were already within their thinking.

To compare Trent to Vatican II is laughable.

No, it is not. Stylistically different, both Councils restated the constant teachings of the Church in order to clarify for all of us the Sacred Tradition of the Church. Did you think the Devil and his minions would just sit on their hands and let the true purposes of Vat II be implemented without a fight?

They fought. They did tremendous damage but they are now losing, thanks be to God and John Paul II.

 

[Michelina]

Greg , what would your response be if I told you the bible must be at fault for the reformation since Luther and others said they did it in the Spirit of the Bible?

Great point, Aaron. Luther appealed to the SS as the criterion against which he judged the Magisterium, or "apparent Magisterium" as someone called it. Heresiarchs always appeal to a 'static' understanding of Tradition in order to justify their desire not to be docile and obedient to the Holy See, thus arrogating to themselves an authority they do not have (but which they claim to be theirs by virtue of their promotion of their own uninformed static misunderstanding of the living Magisterium).

May God have mercy on them.

 

[Alexis OCA]

Really? I thought Vatican II was a valid council. Am I mistaken?

No, you're not mistaken. See, you're making progress.

 

[Rising_Suns]

*just a reminder to everyone not to let this thread degrade. thank you.*

 

[Alexis OCA]

Heresiarchs always appeal to a 'static' understanding of Tradition in order to justify their desire not to be docile and obedient to the Holy See, thus arrogating to themselves an authority they do not have (but which they claim to be theirs by virtue of their promotion of their own uninformed static misunderstanding of the living Magisterium).

May God have mercy on them.

But that wouldn't apply to anyone here would it Michelina? Because if it did I am sure you would have the courage to say so.

 

[nyj]

No, you're not mistaken. See, you're making progress.

Great! So now, can you explain to me why I can't mention Vatican II, a valid council, in the same breath as I can Trent, another valid council?

 

[plainswolf]

What was the reason Vatican II was called?

J.M.J.
plainswolf

 

[nyj]

What was the reason Vatican II was called?

J.M.J.
plainswolf

In calling this vast assembly of bishops, the latest and humble successor to the Prince of the Apostles who is addressing you intends to assert once again the Church's Magisterium, which is unfailing and perdures until the end of time, in order that this Magisterium, taking into account the errors, the requirements, and the opportunities of our time, might be presented in exceptional form to all men throughout the world. - Pope John XXIII

 

[Michelina]

Heresiarchs always appeal to a 'static' understanding of Tradition in order to justify their desire not to be docile and obedient to the Holy See, thus arrogating to themselves an authority they do not have (but which they claim to be theirs by virtue of their promotion of their own uninformed static misunderstanding of the living Magisterium).

May God have mercy on them.

But that wouldn't apply to anyone here would it Michelina? Because if it did I am sure you would have the courage to say so.

When temperance, patience and charity are called cowardice, I don't know what to say, Greg. I guess you now know the secret which everyone else on OBOB knows: I am a coward.

 

[Epiphanygirl]

Mmm, this thread is getting ugly.
Trying to lead others away from our Faith's teachings and the valid Council of Vatican II. I'm not liking this, it sounds schismatic. Some may not like the way that Priests and lesser Bishops have implemented these teachings, but to imply that the Magisterium now is false in some way..ugh, I don't want to even say it.

 

[Michelina]

In calling this vast assembly of bishops, the latest and humble successor to the Prince of the Apostles who is addressing you intends to assert once again the Church's Magisterium, which is unfailing and perdures until the end of time, in order that this Magisterium, taking into account the errors, the requirements, and the opportunities of our time, might be presented in exceptional form to all men throughout the world. - Pope John XXIII

You must spread some
Reputation around before
giving it to nyj again.​

 

[Alexis OCA]

Great! So now, can you explain to me why I can't mention Vatican II, a valid council, in the same breath as I can Trent, another valid council?

Never said you couldn't. Do people on this forum actually say to other people they can't mention certain things???? THat's terrible!

Can't imagine I have anything else to add to this thread. After all my quoting of Pope Piu XI it is nice to know no one publicly disagreed with him. That being said I wish someone would show me the connection bewteen his writing and the Vatican II position on ecumenism.
.
Ultimately, my only concern is that ecumenism never equal a diluted Catholicism. But I fear that is what some want. Not here at OBOB of course.