Ecumenism

[Alexis OCA]

Wow, isn't that a little..... ummmm...... harsh? The true original Church is the Catholic Church but the Church regards our separated brethren as being a part of the Church, against their will, perhaps, but still a part of the Church. Isn't God a merciful and gracious God?

Why when a person expresses an opinion that runs counter to the thinking of another it is generally called 'harsh'? ANSWER: Because it it always better to be nice than really believe in something.

I was referring to Frs. Puglisi and Watson. But now that you mention it....of course we are not members of the same church as any of our separated brethren.

More wisdom from POPE PIUS XI:

it is clear that the Apostolic See cannot on any terms take part in their assemblies, nor is it anyway lawful for Catholics either to support or to work for such enterprises; for if they do so they will be giving countenance to a false Christianity, quite alien to the one Church of Christ. Shall We suffer, what would indeed be iniquitous, the truth, and a truth divinely revealed, to be made a subject for compromise?

 

[Maximus]

Thank you brother. Putting on my Renaissance Breastplate now.

I think it will come in handy.

 

[Alexis OCA]

I think it will come in handy.

The best words are clear, concise and to the point:

But some are more easily deceived by the outward appearance of good when there is question of fostering unity among all Christians. (Pope Pius XI)

You know who you are.

 

[MichaelFJF]

Michael, do you reject the teaching that there is no salvation outside of the Church?

In the context of this discussion, I reject the teaching that says any human has it all figured out and can say definitively who goes where. That is God's decision. M

 

[Dream]

In the context of this discussion, I reject the teaching that says any human has it all figured out and can say definitively who goes where. That is God's decision. M

Of course we can never say with certainty who goes to Hell, but we can say with certainty that there is no salvation outside of the Church. To deny this would be denying the Catholic Church's infalliablility.

 

[MichaelFJF]

I won't split hairs. The difference between "going to hell" and "no salvation" is exactly what? I think the current pope has expressed views consistent with statements I've made. M

 

[Dream]

I won't split hairs. The difference between "going to hell" and "no salvation" is exactly what? I think the current pope has expressed views consistent with statements I've made. M

No, I'm not saying that all non-Catholics go to Hell. I am just saying that it is a fact that there is no salvation outside the Church.

 

[plainswolf]

The best words are clear, concise and to the point:

But some are more easily deceived by the outward appearance of good when there is question of fostering unity among all Christians. (Pope Pius XI)

You know who you are.

AMEN!

The most troubling thing I witness in the Catholic Church today is "Religious Indifferentism" which is an offense against revealed Truth. Christ so loves us that He insituted His Church as a sure means of salavation. While it is possible to be saved with only the barest connections to it, we cannot put alot of faith in this. The same is true if one of our beloved children would be hanging precariously over the edge of a cliff. While there is a chance that they may hang on and manage to pull themselves up back into safety, can we knowingly just let them hang there in mortal peril? This would be an offense against love!

Christ commisioned His Church to make disciples of all nations, to preach and to teach, not to make it look as if heresy is OK because it's "Partially true". But to vigorously preach the full truth and to charitibly correct those not standing in it. Not let them just keep hanging on to the edge of a cliff.

In many ways ecumenism reminds me of St. Peter when he would not eat with the gentiles because they were not circumcised. Though he was not preaching heresy in anyway he was setting a bad and dangerous example by making those who held erroneous beliefs to appear correct. And St. Paul charitbly rebuked him for not standing in the truth.

J.M.J.
plainswolf

 

[Michelina]

Repeating nyj's post:

The topic of Ecumenism from Basics of the Faith: A Catholic Catechism by Alan Schreck.

First, the primary duty of Catholics in promoting ecumenism is to seek the renewal of the Catholic church so that its life may be a clearer witness to its teachings. "Let all Christ's faithful remember that the more purely they stive to live according to the gospel, the more they are fostering and even practicing Christian unity." (UR, no 7).

Second, Catholics can genuinely learn and receive support from other Christians. In fact, Catholics are encouraged to study the beliefs and backgrounds of other Christian churches in order to understand them better and to meet individually or in groups to pray with other Christians. (UR, no. 4)

Third, in discussing our beliefs with other Christians, Catholics should state the teachings of the Catholic Church clearly and non-defensively. As the Decree on Ecumenism instructs, Catholics should avoid a "false conciliator approach" in presenting Catholic belief "which harms the purity of Catholic doctrine and obscures its assured genuine meaning". This decree also encourages Catholics to explain their beliefs "profoundly and precisely, in ways and in terminology which our separated brethren too can really understand." (UR, no. 11)

In addition, we must seek forgiveness and give forgiveness to our non-Catholic Christian brothers and sisters. Separation from the Catholic Church is of the past, and our brothers and sisters in Christ are baptized, believe in the Trinity and in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. They have the right to be "honored by the title of Christian, and are properly regarded as brothers and sisters in the Lord by the sons and daughters of the Catholic church." (UR, no. 3)

And finally, Catholics are encouraged to join with all Christians in professing to the whole world our "faith in God, one and three, in the incarnate Son of God, our Redeemer and Lord." Most importantly, our cooperation in matters of social justice is essential. This is possibly the most visible of all the initiatives we can take in our journey of ecumenical outreach, and the one which offers the most potential for a strong, solid cooperative foundation between the Catholic church and the Protestant churches. (UR, no. 12)"

That's ecumenism. I see no reason for Catholics to fear that.

Amen.

Ecumenism is not indifferentism.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...ecree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

 

[Skripper]

I won't split hairs. The difference between "going to hell" and "no salvation" is exactly what? I think the current pope has expressed views consistent with statements I've made. M

Perhaps you could clarify exactly what your position is, and then demonstrate the consistency between this and the views of the current pope? This would sure be helpful, since your position has not exactly been made crystal clear.

 

[plainswolf]

Ecumenism is not indifferentism.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

Indifferentism seems to be the way that most are taking it. And why not? Heck they have enough "ecumenical services" in my town, and thats exactly what our local parish calls them. There was one last week at the local Presbyterian Church.

In this I see the same bad example that St. Peter gave. How else are people supposed to view "Interreligious Church services"? Make no mistake I respect all good Christians, but I'm sure not going to set an example for them or for my fellow Catholics that make it appear as if the other is correct. This is exactly the bad example that St. Paul rebuked St. Peter for and the very reason I witness so much religious indifferentism today.

J.M.J.
plainswolf

 

[bigsierra]

I can say Amen to NYJ's post as well.

 

[MichaelFJF]

No, I'm not saying that all non-Catholics go to Hell. I am just saying that it is a fact that there is no salvation outside the Church.

I'm Catholic. I believe the Catholic church is the one true church - for me. I am not however ready to condemn the rest of the world.

Perhaps you could clarify exactly what your position is, and then demonstrate the consistency between this and the views of the current pope? This would sure be helpful, since your position has not exactly been made crystal clear.

I think I've been crystal clear. Who is saved? Who goes to heaven? Who goes to hell? Simply put - it is not our job. Our job is to live our lives the best we can and let God make those decisions.

 

[Maximus]

1Co 1:13

Is Christ divided? Was Paul then crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

If the Church is Christ's Body, and Christ cannot be divided, then the Church cannot be divided.

In other words, it is possible to leave the Church - and many have done so through the millenia - but it is not possible to divide the Church.

So, shouldn't we be praying for the conversion of those outside the Church, rather than for a unity that cannot possibly exist without their conversion?

Doesn't it seem that the ecumenical movement places heresies on an equal footing with the Catholic faith, convinces the leaders of various sects that they superintend "churches" like the Catholic Church, and promotes compromises that apparently obviate the need for conversion?

 

[Dream]

I'm Catholic. I believe the Catholic church is the one true church - for me. I am not however ready to condemn the rest of the world.

I think I've been crystal clear. Who is saved? Who goes to heaven? Who goes to hell? Simply put - it is not our job. Our job is to live our lives the best we can and let God make those decisions.

No, it is not our job to decide who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell.

But when the Church makes a statement that there is no salvation outside the Church, this is not man speaking, but God speaking through man.

 

[MichaelFJF]

No, it is not our job to decide who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell.

But when the Church makes a statement that there is no salvation outside the Church, this is not man speaking, but God speaking through man.

So define "no salvation."

 

[Maximus]

I believe the Catholic church is the one true church - for me.

No, not just for you. There is no other way of salvation than Christ, via the means He provided.

Here is a section from Pius IX's Syllabus of Errors. The whole thing can be found here. The things listed are errors (had to point that out - because some of them sound like the latest trendy teaching!).

III. INDIFFERENTISM, LATITUDINARIANISM

15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. -- Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862; Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851.

16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. -- Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9, 1846.

17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. -- Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur," Aug. 10, 1863, etc.

18. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. -- Encyclical "Noscitis," Dec. 8, 1849.

 

[Dream]

So define "no salvation."

Salvation:

Salvation has in Scriptural language the general meaning of liberation from straitened circumstances or from other evils, and of a translation into a state of freedom and security (I Kings, xi, 13; xiv, 45; II Kings, xxiii, 10; IV Kings, xiii, 17). At times it expresses God's help against Israel's enemies, at other times, the Divine blessing bestowed on the produce of the soil (Is., xlv, 8). As sin is the greatest evil, being the root and source of all evil, Sacred Scripture uses the word "salvation" mainly in the sense of liberation of the human race or of individual man from sin and its consequences. We shall first consider the salvation of the human race, and then salvation as it is verified in the individual man.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm

So no salvation would be the opposite or a not in front of every sentence.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I too say Amen to NYJs post


There is a difference between dialogue with those of other faiths, and compromising the Deposit of faith, that is the Catholic church. We should do the first, yet never do the other. Dialogue does not begin by telling people to convert to the Catholic church or face hell. Dialogue trys to talk with people to see our similarities and differences to increase understanding. When understanding is increased, people will naturally want to return or come into the Catholic church, as many on this board, including myself have done. We in the Church are not about judging the world, that is God's job; we are here to bring good news, the Gospel.

I think that the best example of ecumenism in the Bible is not Paul's rebuke of Peter, but Paul's explanation of his ministry in 1Corinthians:


16. For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel.
17. For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship entrusted to me.
18. What then is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.
19. For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.
20. To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21. to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
22. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.

 

[Maximus]

It might be worth noting that St. Paul was talking about reaching out to individuals in order to convert them. He did not say "I made the Church a slave, or a Jew, or without the law, etc."

Are our official ecumenical exertions converting anyone?

When we engage in them are we even trying to convert anyone?

Our are we merely participating in some sort of ecclesiastical mutual admiration society?