Ecumenism and the Catholic

[ksen]

For the Catholic is the only form of valid Ecumenism to bring Protestants into the Catholic church?

The opening paragraph on Ecumenism from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

The Catholic Church is by far the largest, the most widespread, and the most ancient of Christian communions in the world, and is moreover the mighty trunk from which the other communions claiming to be Christian have broken off at one time or another. If, then, we limit the application of the term Christendom to this, its most authentic expression, the unity of Christendom is not a lost ideal to be recovered, but a stupendous reality which has always been in stable possession. For not only has this Catholic Church ever taught that unity is an essential note of the true Church of Christ, but throughout her long history she has been, to the amazement of the world, distinguished by the most conspicuous unity of faith and government, and this notwithstanding that she has at all times embraced within her fold nationalities of the most different temperaments, and has had to contend with incessant oscillations of mental speculation and political power. Still, in another and broader sense of the term, which is also the more usual and is followed in the present article, Christendom includes not merely the Catholic Church, but, together with it, the many other religious communions which have either directly or indirectly, separated from it, and yet, although in conflict both with it and among themselves as to various points of doctrine and practice agree with it in this: that they look up to our Lord Jesus Christ as the Founder of their Faith, and claim to make His teaching the rule of their lives. As these separated communities when massed together, indeed in some cases even of themselves, count a vast number of souls, among whom many are conspicuous for their religious earnestness, this extension of the term Christendom to include them all has its solid justification. On the other hand, if it is accepted, it becomes no longer possible to speak of the unity of Christendom but rather of a Christendom torn by divisions and offering the saddest spectacle to the eyes. And then the question arises: Is this scandal always to continue? The Holy See has never tired of appealing in season and out of season for its removal but without meeting with much response from a world which had learnt to live contentedly within its sectarian enclosures. Happily a new spirit has lately come over these dissentient Christians, numbers of whom are becoming keenly sensitive to the paralyzing effects of division and an active reunion movement has arisen which, If far from being as widespread and solid as one could wish, is at least cherished on all sides by devout minds.

Please do NOT move this thread to OBOB. I want to be able to challenge any ideas presented here and to let other non-Catholics as well if they feel the need.

Thanks.

 

[ScottBot]

I believe it warrants discussion here in General Theology.

Unsurprisingly, I concur with the paragraph as posted.

 

[Alphadux]

I'm not Catholic, but hasn't the Pope accepted us Protestants as brothers in Christ?

 

[ScottBot]

I'm not Catholic, but hasn't the Pope accepted us Protestants as brothers in Christ?

Absolutely.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hi. Would Catholics have any qualms about visiting other denominational churches that friends or relatives may be worshipping at if invited by them?

Reve 1:18 and the living One! And I became dead, and behold, I am living into the ages of ages, and I am having the keys of the Death and of the Hades

 

[ScottBot]

Hi. Would Catholics have any qualms about visiting other denominational churches that friends or relatives may be worshipping at if invited by them?

Reve 1:18 and the living One! And I became dead, and behold, I am living into the ages of ages, and I am having the keys of the Death and of the Hades

Nope.

1. I was Greek Orthodox for 8 years.
2. I was a Bapticostal (Charismatic Baptist) for about 3 years.

I attend Baptist and Methodist worship services occationally with my neighbors, as long as it doesn't interfere with my Sunday Obligation.

 

[a_ntv]

For the Catholic is the only form of valid Ecumenism to bring Protestants into the Catholic church?

The opening paragraph on Ecumenism from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Well, the Catholic Encyclopedia is not an official document of the CC at all, and the though about ecumenism developed a lot during the last century.

To know the postion of the CC about ecumenism, and in particular the way that the ecumenism shall follow, I suggest you to read this enciclica of pope JPII: Ut Unum Sint, 1995 (http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0221/_INDEX.HTM)
This document is based on the Council Vatican II 'Unitatis reintegratio', an other good reading (http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...ecree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html)

Here the name of the chapters of the first part of "'Ut Unum Sint": simply from here you can see the way we propose: doctrine, prayer, dialogue, examination of conscience, resolving disagreements, pratical cooperation

• God's plan and communion
• The way of ecumenism: the way of the Church
• Renewal and conversion
• The fundamental importance of doctrine
• The primacy of prayer
• Ecumenical dialogue
• Local structures of dialogue
• Dialogue as an examination of conscience
• Dialogue as a means of resolving disagreements
• Practical cooperation

 

[ksen]

Absolutely.

Can you tell us what it means, specifically, "accepted us as brothers and sisters in Christ?"

Is that this Pope who wrote, on behalf of Pope John Paul II:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

17. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60

On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63

“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.64 In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”.65 “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66

 

[Polycarp1]

As I understand it, the desire is for reunification of the divided Church, and the Catholics believe themselves (as, in passing, do the Orthodox) to have preserved the original Church founded by Jesus, from which everyone else has split off. This does not necessarily mean that "everybody has to become Catholics" in the sense of worshipping in the manner which is most pleasing to the present members of OBOB; to the contrary, the Catholic Church is prepared to accommodate the worship traditions of other faith communities as they reunite, to the extent that they do not conflict with what Catholicism considers basic principles essential to Christianity. Unfortunately, as may be observed from a quick scan of threads in this forum, there's strong disagreement about some of those "basic essentials."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

..........to the extent that they do not conflict with what Catholicism considers basic principles essential to Christianity. Unfortunately, as may be observed from a quick scan of threads in this forum, there's strong disagreement about some of those "basic essentials."

Hi. What makes those basic essentials essential to Christ-ianity surviving amongst all the other religions in the world, including Judaism and Islam?

 

[ScottBot]

Can you tell us what it means, specifically, "accepted us as brothers and sisters in Christ?"

Is that this Pope who wrote, on behalf of Pope John Paul II:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

You should have highlighted this pertinent part of your quote:

" however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church"

 

[Tyndale]

Originally Posted by Alphadux
I'm not Catholic, but hasn't the Pope accepted us Protestants as brothers in Christ?

Absolutely.

When did he say that? I've never read it or heard him say that!

 

[ScottBot]

Originally Posted by Alphadux
I'm not Catholic, but hasn't the Pope accepted us Protestants as brothers in Christ?




When did he say that? I've never read it or heard him say that!

Since the Pope by default of his position accepts the decrees of Vatican II, which asserts the following declaration:

"all who have been justified by faith in baptism are INCORPORATED INTO CHRIST [footnote cites Council of Florence, Session 8, from the year 1439]; they therefore have a right to be called CHRISTIANS, and with good reason are accepted as BROTHERS by the children of the Catholic Church. "

 

[ksen]

Well, the Catholic Encyclopedia is not an official document of the CC at all,

This is usually the first line of defense. I've even heard that when push comes to shove the Catechism isn't really official either.

...and the though about ecumenism developed a lot during the last century.

To know the postion of the CC about ecumenism, and in particular the way that the ecumenism shall follow, I suggest you to read this enciclica of pope JPII: Ut Unum Sint, 1995 (http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0221/_INDEX.HTM)
This document is based on the Council Vatican II 'Unitatis reintegratio', an other good reading (http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...ecree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html)

Here the name of the chapters of the first part of "'Ut Unum Sint": simply from here you can see the way we propose: doctrine, prayer, dialogue, examination of conscience, resolving disagreements, pratical cooperation

• God's plan and communion
• The way of ecumenism: the way of the Church
• Renewal and conversion
• The fundamental importance of doctrine
• The primacy of prayer
• Ecumenical dialogue
• Local structures of dialogue
• Dialogue as an examination of conscience
• Dialogue as a means of resolving disagreements
• Practical cooperation

Thanks for that.

Here are a couple of questions about Ut Unum Sint:

1 - Ut Unum Sint affirms Unitatis Redintegratio and Lumen Gentium and they both state that the only valid form of unicity is for the non-Catholic christians to become full Catholics in communion with the Bishop of Rome. Would you say that's an accurate statement?

From Ut Unum Sint:

8....

In indicating the Catholic principles of ecumenism, the Decree Unitatis Redintegratio recalls above all the teaching on the Church set forth in the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium in its chapter on the People of God.8 At the same time, it takes into account everything affirmed in the Council's Declaration on Religious Freedom Dignitatis Humanae.9

From Unitatis Redintegratio:

24. This Sacred Council exhorts the faithful to refrain from superficiality and imprudent zeal, which can hinder real progress toward unity. Their ecumenical action must be fully and sincerely Catholic, that is to say, faithful to the truth which we have received from the apostles and Fathers of the Church, in harmony with the faith which the Catholic Church has always professed, and at the same time directed toward that fullness to which Our Lord wills His Body to grow in the course of time

It is the urgent wish of this Holy Council that the measures undertaken by the sons of the Catholic Church should develop in conjunction with those of our separated brethren so that no obstacle be put in the ways of divine Providence and no preconceived judgments impair the future inspirations of the Holy Spirit. The Council moreover professes its awareness that human powers and capacities cannot achieve this holy objective-the reconciling of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ.

From Lumen Gentium:

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

2 - If that's an accurate statement then is it fair to say that the only valid form of ecumenical endeavor taken by a Catholic should be one which helps lead the "separated brethren" back to the bosom of Mother Church?

 

[ScottBot]

With regards to the OP, yes, what you've postulated is indeed the Catholic position.

 

[ksen]

You should have highlighted this pertinent part of your quote:

" however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church"

What of this portion?

... a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church

What does "certain communion, albeit imperfect" mean?

I know the Catholic church is big on words meaning things , i.e. Dulia, Hyperdulia, Latreia, so what do those words - "certain communion, albeit imperfect" - mean?

 

[ksen]

With regards to the OP, yes, what you've postulated is indeed the Catholic position.

Then would it be fair to wonder if the purpose of Catholics on a messageboard billed as "ecumenical" in nature is to not see how well we can get along together but is instead to convert non-Catholic christians to Catholic christians?

 

[Tyndale]

Since the Pope by default of his position accepts the decrees of Vatican II, which asserts the following declaration:

"all who have been justified by faith in baptism are INCORPORATED INTO CHRIST [footnote cites Council of Florence, Session 8, from the year 1439]; they therefore have a right to be called CHRISTIANS, and with good reason are accepted as BROTHERS by the children of the Catholic Church. "

What type of Baptism is this? I know that I as a protestant can't participate in Roman Catholic Chapels untill I go through a whole procedure of rituals ordained by a Priest and renounce my Protestant belief.

 

[ScottBot]

What type of Baptism is this? I know that I as a protestant can't participate in Roman Catholic Chapels untill I go through a whole procedure of rituals ordained by a Priest and renounce my Protestant belief.

I think you know the answer to that question and you are playing word games. In case you don't, the answer is a validly intended water basptism.

 

[ScottBot]

Then would it be fair to wonder if the purpose of Catholics on a messageboard billed as "ecumenical" in nature is to not see how well we can get along together but is instead to convert non-Catholic christians to Catholic christians?

One could make that supposition, but unless you are divine, I would caution you against reading into the intentions of other people.