ECT as the uncompleted story of humankind - the plan to fail?

[Saint Steven]

Eternal conscious torment (ECT)
Should this be the end of the vast majority of humankind?
It seems a catastrophic failure in planning. Or a plan gone terribly wrong.
Who should we blame?

Anyone who has read the Bible knows that God loves a good story.

- The Israelites cross the Red Sea on dry land narrowly escaping the Egyptian army in hot pursuit.
- The walls of Jericho come tumbling down with a shout after the Israelites march around the city once a day for seven days.
- Elijah and the prophets of Baal. Fire came down from heaven and consumed Elijah's drenched sacrifice, the water, and even the stones.
- Jesus was crucified, but then rises from the dead.

And many, many more. You get the idea.

What about the end of the story of humankind? The final judgment. How should that story end?

Most say it ends with the "damned" being tormented forever with no hope of escape.
Something about this story doesn't fit God's usual MO. Too many loose ends.

An uncompleted story. No resolution. Sin unresolved forever.
The "punishment for sin" an eternal blemish on the story of humankind.

Was this God's plan, or humankind's general misunderstanding of God's plan?

Did God really plan to end the story with the vast majority of humankind cast into a forever burning hell?
Seems pointless. Even those who weren't incinerated are left wondering about loved ones who didn't "make it".
And wondering if they will be next.

What if the story of humankind came full circle?
Could God have a plan that brought restoration to all of his creation?

Or should the whole thing end in the smoking dumpster of hell?
Seems such a waste. God loves a good story. Nothing good about THAT story!

Romans 8:20-21 ESV
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly,
but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself
will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain
the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

 

[public hermit]

I agree with those early followers of Christ who argued God's desired end, an end that God would fulfill, is the same as the beginning: It is good.

"It is not the way of the compassionate Maker to create rational beings in order to deliver them over mercilessly to unending affliction in punishment for things he knew even before they were fashioned, being aware how they would turn out when he created them and whom nonetheless he created. All the more since the fore-planning of evil and the taking vengeance are characteristics of the passions of created beings, and do not belong to the Creator.

"This is what the scriptures bring to our attention and remind us of, as has frequently been shown...namely, that God is not one who requites evil, but he sets evil right: the former of the characteristics of evil people, while the latter is characteristic of a father.

"If the Kingdom and Gehenna had not been foreseen in the purpose of our good God, as a result of coming into being of good and evil actions, the God's thoughts concerning these would not be eternal; but righteousness and sin were known by him before they revealed themselves. Accordingly, the Kingdom and Gehenna are matters belonging to mercy, which were conceived of in their essence by God as a result of his eternal goodness.

"That we should further say or think that the matter is not full of love and mingled with compassion would be an opinion full of blasphemy and insult to our Lord God. By saying that he will even hand us over to burning for the sake of sufferings, torment and all sorts of ills, we are attributing to the divine nature an enmity towards the very rational beings which he created through grace; the same is true if we say that he acts or thinks with spite and with a vengeful purpose, as though he was avenging himself.

No part belonging to any single one of all rational beings will be lost, as far as God is concerned, in the preparation of that supernal Kingdom which is prepared for all worlds."
St. Isaac the Syrian

https://www.clarion-journal.com/files/brock-on-st-isaac.pdf

 

[Hmm]

I agree with those early followers of Christ who argued God's desired end, an end that God would fulfill, is the same as the beginning: It is good.

"It is not the way of the compassionate Maker to create rational beings in order to deliver them over mercilessly to unending affliction in punishment for things he knew even before they were fashioned, being aware how they would turn out when he created them and whom nonetheless he created. All the more since the fore-planning of evil and the taking vengeance are characteristics of the passions of created beings, and do not belong to the Creator.

"This is what the scriptures bring to our attention and remind us of, as has frequently been shown...namely, that God is not one who requites evil, but he sets evil right: the former of the characteristics of evil people, while the latter is characteristic of a father.

"If the Kingdom and Gehenna had not been foreseen in the purpose of our good God, as a result of coming into being of good and evil actions, the God's thoughts concerning these would not be eternal; but righteousness and sin were known by him before they revealed themselves. Accordingly, the Kingdom and Gehenna are matters belonging to mercy, which were conceived of in their essence by God as a result of his eternal goodness.

"That we should further say or think that the matter is not full of love and mingled with compassion would be an opinion full of blasphemy and insult to our Lord God. By saying that he will even hand us over to burning for the sake of sufferings, torment and all sorts of ills, we are attributing to the divine nature an enmity towards the very rational beings which he created through grace; the same is true if we say that he acts or thinks with spite and with a vengeful purpose, as though he was avenging himself.

No part belonging to any single one of all rational beings will be lost, as far as God is concerned, in the preparation of that supernal Kingdom which is prepared for all worlds."
St. Isaac the Syrian

https://www.clarion-journal.com/files/brock-on-st-isaac.pdf

Isn't it amazing how advanced in their thinking people were all that time ago - from the article, this quote is about 1,200 years old.

 

[GTW27]

Eternal conscious torment (ECT)
Should this be the end of the vast majority of humankind?
It seems a catastrophic failure in planning. Or a plan gone terribly wrong.
Who should we blame?

Anyone who has read the Bible knows that God loves a good story.

- The Israelites cross the Red Sea on dry land narrowly escaping the Egyptian army in hot pursuit.
- The walls of Jericho come tumbling down with a shout after the Israelites march around the city once a day for seven days.
- Elijah and the prophets of Baal. Fire came down from heaven and consumed Elijah's drenched sacrifice, the water, and even the stones.
- Jesus was crucified, but then rises from the dead.

And many, many more. You get the idea.

What about the end of the story of humankind? The final judgment. How should that story end?

Most say it ends with the "damned" being tormented forever with no hope of escape.
Something about this story doesn't fit God's usual MO. Too many loose ends.

An uncompleted story. No resolution. Sin unresolved forever.
The "punishment for sin" an eternal blemish on the story of humankind.

Was this God's plan, or humankind's general misunderstanding of God's plan?

Did God really plan to end the story with the vast majority of humankind cast into a forever burning hell?
Seems pointless. Even those who weren't incinerated are left wondering about loved ones who didn't "make it".
And wondering if they will be next.

What if the story of humankind came full circle?
Could God have a plan that brought restoration to all of his creation?

Or should the whole thing end in the smoking dumpster of hell?
Seems such a waste. God loves a good story. Nothing good about THAT story!

Romans 8:20-21 ESV
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly,
but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself
will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain
the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

"Did God really plan" "Did God say" Gen 3 vs. 1 And no God The Father has not spoken to you. This is an imitator. It is The Lord Jesus who speaks today. And what has He said? And nothing unclean will enter in.

 

[public hermit]

Isn't it amazing how advanced in their thinking people were all that time ago - from the article, this quote is about 1,200 years old.

I agree. He even anticipates the unhelpful theories of atonement put forth by Anselm and Calvin, i.e., that God has to avenge God's honor or that God's punishment is punitive. Gosh, how much harmful theology could have been avoided?

That we should further say or think that the matter is not full of love and mingled with compassion would be an opinion full of blasphemy and insult to our Lord God. By saying that he will even hand us over to burning for the sake of sufferings, torment and all sorts of ills, we are attributing to the divine nature an enmity towards the very rational beings which he created through grace; the same is true if we say that he acts or thinks with spite and with a vengeful purpose, as though he was avenging himself

 

[Hmm]

Gosh, how much harmful theology could have been avoided?

Yes, we're in a position now where people need to de-programme from or deconstruct ECT to be free of it, and that's not an easy thing to do, for many reasons that are outside the scope of this thread.

But, yes, imagine the Christian world where the whole blasphemous idea that God would ever torture His children was laughed out of court in the first place. And compare that to the reality now of empty churches and Christians seen as irrational, hypocritical, anti everything and everyone and pro nothing and, of course, much worse but let's not go there.

 

[public hermit]

Yes, we're in a position now where people need to de-programme from or deconstruct ECT to be free of it, and that's not an easy thing to do, for many reasons that are outside the scope of this thread.

But, yes, imagine the Christian world where the whole blasphemous idea that God would ever torture His children was laughed out of court in the first place. And compare that to the reality now of empty churches and Christians seen as irrational, hypocritical, anti everything and everyone and pro nothing and, of course, much worse but let's not go there.

Agreed. Maybe the tide is beginning to turn toward a more generous, loving faith? I hope so.

 

[public hermit]

Jesus was even the most extravagently generous of all, and the most loving,
and He comes with vengeance to execute the wrath of the Creator when it is time.

Bless you, dear one. May God's mercy be yours forever.

 

[Saint Steven]

I think you already know the answer from Scripture,
even though worldly carnal 'humans' don't like it,
even heaven and earth eventually melt.

Reminds me of a song. Black hole sun, by Soundgarden.

I think the new heavens and earth will be FOR us not against us.

 

[Saint Steven]

Who does the Bible Reveal by the Father's Revelation from heaven the new earth and new heavens are for ?

Not nearly everyone.

Please post the scripture. Thanks.

 

[Saint Steven]

Genesis thru Malachi. Matthew thru The Apocalypse. Enjoy.

Those making outlandish claims should be expected to prove them.

Who does the Bible Reveal by the Father's Revelation from heaven the new earth and new heavens are for ?

Not nearly everyone.

Where's your proof?

At least give it a try. Do you need help?
Do you know how to do a Bible search? I would be glad to help you.
Helping others is more important to me than winning a debate.

 

[public hermit]

What does God Himself Say ? Not what people say.

God has mercy on those He chooses to have mercy on,
God hardens the heart of those He chooses to harden the heart of.

Well, if it's up to a roll of the dice of God's sovereign will, may it be 7 come 11 for you!

Happily, I trust that God's steadfast love and mercy will prevail. If you want, I'll pray that you will have such trust in God's abundant grace. Would that help?

 

[public hermit]

No, I do not want your thoughts nor your prayers

Well, I wish you the best in our Lord, Jesus Christ. I'm sure his love is greater than our certainties and doubts.

 

[Saint Steven]

You likely already read the Book of Revelation, The APocalypse.

See there the lists those who are never going to be in heaven ever.

Salvation is God's business. We have little to do with it.
We can't save ourselves. Especially since he already saved us. (all of us)

Anyway, bad idea to use the Book of Revelation to formulate doctrine.
You'll need other scriptural support. Same with the Poetry books. IMHO

 

[Clare73]

Eternal conscious torment (ECT)
Should this be the end of the vast majority of humankind?
It seems a catastrophic failure in planning. Or a plan gone terribly wrong.
Who should we blame?

Anyone who has read the Bible knows that God loves a good story.

Casualness regarding God is found nowhere in the Bible.