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ECF's -Which ones were right?

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Anglian

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Dear Rick,

It would be good to be able to engage with you again, because you do make good points. However, their effect is somewhat spoiled by comments such as this:
I think Simon is simply being polite in accepting the hypocritical denial that veneration is indeed worship as the Holy Church points out in its encyclopedia, articulating latria, dulia, & hyperdulia.
If we are being accused of being hypocrites, and of worshipping graven images, then there really is not very much point engaging in discussion with someone who is insulting you and your Church.

If Simon agrees with your interpretation, I am sure he will speak for himself; I never saw him as having any trouble doing that.

....

It doesn't matter how old & holy you can claim to be, you're still vulnerable to serious error.
This has never been denied; it has often been stated that Holy Tradition is as good as you are going to get in terms of the true reading of God's word. We are all subject to error, for we are all sinners; Holy Tradition just provides two things: an historically validated guide; and insulation against our own sinful pride assuming we read the Scriptures aright every time.


Peace,

Anglian
 
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Yarddog

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Dear Yarddog,

Good question. I had thought we had agreed that the first commandment forbade the worship of any God but the One God, and that the Catholic and Orthodox veneration is of that One God. If I was wrong, that would explain why I'm having trouble wondering what the discussion is now about.

Peace,

Anglian
I'm pretty sure that we all agree with the first commandment but Simon and Rick keep applying it incorrectly to icons or images. They make good points about the ECFs but it also seems that some of them also misread scripture and apply it as many Protestants do today. The important thing about this matter is how the whole Church looked at it and not some of the Bishops around the area of Israel.

Yarddog
 
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Anglian

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Dear Yarddog,

Yes, that's how I see it too.

We have established that we are not worshipping images, or, indeed, anyone save the One True God. We do it in a way which was formally approved in 787, but which was much older than that. Before then there were those who did wonder about the practice, and there was a move to ban icons, using precisely the arguments cited by Simon. These were rejected by the Church, which has continued to use them ever since.

Those who do not belong to a Church which uses icons are not told by the rest of us they must use them; we ask only the same respect from others. We accuse no one of hypocrisy or pagan practices; we would ask the same respect from others. If, in all conscience, others cannot give that respect, then, however pleasant and intelligent they are, there is really nothing more we can say with profit to them other than a sad - and a courteous - farewell. Regrettable as that would be, it is preferable to running the risk of provoking or committing posts written in anger.

Peace,

Anglian
 
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simonthezealot

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Isn't that exactly what Aaron expliciltly stated (not implied)? Or is your statement meant to restrict itself to the Jereboam incident?
Yes rick a question to the orthodox deniers, In both cases they stated "here are/is the god/gods whom brought you out of egypt." It is both that state that...

TELL US WHO BROUGHT THEM OUT OF EGYPT?
 
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simonthezealot

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Dear Simon,


I had thought that had been addressed, but if you missed it, here it is again. Holy Tradition depends on four pillars: Holy Scripture; the writings of the Fathers; the Liturgy; and decisions of councils recognised as Ecumenical. So, quoting ECFs, or Councils, or your own interpretation of Scripture, or of the Liturgy, are all clear signs that one is seeking to assert one's own will rather than trying to discern the will of God by listening to all the sources He has provided. We are all sinners, we all do this; this is why the Church founded by Christ relies on Holy Tradition and not an infallible man - neither a Pope, nor one individual who is convinced that his reading is correct; all are fallible, not one is righteous.

Thus, it is bound to be the case that mistakes are made. How do we know it is a mistake? Usually because whatever has been decided turns out to be unacceptable to the faithful. Thus, the various councils which approved Arian teachings were not received by most of the faithful, and by much of the Church until, in the end, St. Athanasius triumphed against even the might of the Emperors; how so? Because he, and those who supported the orthodox teaching were supported by the Holy Spirit and by the people. Their triumph has been validated by the Church ever since. We believe God is with His Church and will not let error triumph for ever. The same is true of the iconoclastic Council.

Before the Muslim invasions the Church never discussed the issue of icons. Some ECFs didn't like them, some did; but none of the Councils discussed them. In response to the Muslim puritanism on 'idols', this became an issue. It actually only became an issue for the Chalcedonian Church; the non-Chalcedonians never found this an issue, and it is interesting that it should have been a Christian working within an Islamic state, St. John of Damascus, who provided the most cogent arguments against the iconoclasts.

How do we know that the decision of the second Nicene Council was correct? Because it was received by the faithful and has been accepted by them ever since. We do not believe that God would allow His Church to dwell in the wrong for so long; if you do, you do.



No, I mean that in the Church which received the Holy Tradition, the decision remains accepted.

As we have endeavoured to explain, for the Orthodox, no one has infallibility - that's why we give our ancestors a vote. It may be that an individual reading the Bible in twenty-first century America has it all correct and that he is, in effect, personally infallible; but how the rest of us are to determine that is unclear. On the other hand, it may be that a Church which has existed from the beginning, and which has carried the Good News forward despite persecutions, despite errors of individuals, and despite the travails of two thousand years, has more of an insight into these holy mysteries.



Peace,

Anglian
A whole lot of fluff with the absence of an answer...
 
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Anglian

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Dear Simon,

Originally Posted by Rick Otto I think Simon is simply being polite in accepting the hypocritical denial that veneration is indeed worship as the Holy Church points out in its encyclopedia, articulating latria, dulia, & hyperdulia.
Is Rick representing your position correctly here?

Peace,

Anglian
 
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simonthezealot

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We accuse no one of hypocrisy or pagan practices; we would ask the same respect from others.
If you see me doing pagan acts or showing hypocrisy as a Christian, I urge you to confront me...
 
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Anglian

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A whole lot of fluff with the absence of an answer...
Sorry you feel that way, but there we are.

If you see me doing pagan acts or showing hypocrisy as a Christian, I urge you to confront me...
As you will know, Rick has accused us of hypocrisy. He asserts you agree with him Do you?

peace,

Anglian
 
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simonthezealot

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Dear Simon,


Is Rick representing your position correctly here?

Peace,

Anglian
I certainly take serious issue with the image practice your church and the catholic DEEM a necessity, I am not familiar enough with your dulia hyper dulia type lingo to accuse anyone of worship in the strichtest sense, but I do generally observe that if things act walk and talk like a duck 999 out 1000 times they are a duck.
It is beside the point to this thread, the 2 main things that seem to grind between us are.

Why and how did your councel determine J of D was right and epiphanius wrong?

and

Regarding the gold calfs you all want to state it wasn't a visble sign of god but scripture to scripture shows otherwise.

you guys are flirting with fire and blindly following a church whose only basis for truth is age...age filled with on again off again opinions and sinful wrong thinking men... NOT GOD BREATHED...
 
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Anglian

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I certainly take serious issue with the image practice your church and the catholic DEEM a necessity, I am not familiar enough with your dulia hyper dulia type lingo to accuse anyone of worship in the strichtest sense, but I do generally observe that if things act walk and talk like a duck 999 out 1000 times they are a duck.

lot of fluff with an evasion for an answer.

Peace,

Anglian
 
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Anglian

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, the 2 main things that seem to grind between us are.

Why and how did your councel determine J of D was right and epiphanius wrong?


Dear Simon,

That's too simplistic a way of putting it. The subject is dealt with in more than 300 pages in Professor Louth's St. John Damascene, if you want me to precis it, usual rates apply. I'm not going to give you another long post unless I am guaranteed more than your usual two or three line response. Neither am I liable to do so unless I can be assured that your evasive response amounted to an assurance you are not accusing us of worshipping raven images.

You ask a lot, and give little in return except flip responses; if you want a serious and scholarly discussion, you can have one - when you show you are ready for it.

peace,

Anglian
 
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simonthezealot

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As you will know, Rick has accused us of hypocrisy. He asserts you agree with him Do you?

peace,

Anglian
I didn't see that post but I tend to mostly agree with Rick...
Why? whats the point why do our opinions of you matter? i'd be more worried about the train that seems to be leaving salvation station which you guys are on instead.. You see i'd be more concerned that since 787ad the people on said train have been blatantly offending a jealous God, by creating images He warned against, meaning ones of either heaven or earth...
 
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simonthezealot

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[/color][/size][/font][/b]

Dear Simon,

That's too simplistic a way of putting it.
YEAH, because things from God should be difficult...
Book says no images..
NO IMAGES
Book says don't bow to things
DON'T BOW to things

Book shows Gods anger when this constant denial happens...

Why don't you take some time and read about King Josiah and what happened when his forefathers didn't follow the "written guide" provided by God...

Heres the difference you use 2000 words everytime to justify your position, I only need a hundred to make my point. Truth need not hide behind words....
 
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simonthezealot

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[/color][/size][/font][/b]



You ask a lot, and give little in return except flip responses; if you want a serious and scholarly discussion, you can have one - when you show you are ready for it.

peace,

Anglian
Anglian I am the only one whom has posted any substance at all in this exchange...
 
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Philothei

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if the CONSTANT use of icons in worship doesn't in some way make it that you are unable to worship (corporately, that is) without them. As for the use of icons, as a rule, it's not that big a deal for me. I'm neither Catholic or EO... so it doesn't come up much, outside this virtual cooking pot.

I would imagine it would be difficult in the beginning to get used to praying without them in Church. It is not a big deal though. Some churches do not have them all around their walls, only in the iconostasis.
They are part of our long Ecclesiastical tradition that dates back to the Catacombs. The usage of symbols in Judaism also verifies to that. As an example is one of Orthodox Churces I have in my area that was a Temple before and the stained windows that they do dipict the Torah and the staff...Those I consider "symbols" that one could get used to observe during corporate prayer.For me all these help to remain focused on prayer during services.
 
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Anglian

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I didn't see that post but I tend to mostly agree with Rick...
Why? whats the point why do our opinions of you matter? i'd be more worried about the train that seems to be leaving salvation station which you guys are on instead.. You see i'd be more concerned that since 787ad the people on said train have been blatantly offending a jealous God, by creating images He warned against, meaning ones of either heaven or earth...
The point is simple. If you are telling me I worship graven images, despite my saying I do not, then you are telling me what I think and what I believe; that means dialogue is impossible since you will be the arbiter of what I believe.

Anglian I am the only one whom has posted any substance at all in this exchange...
If you really think you are the only person in this long thread whose posts have any substance, then one can only conclude that whatever Christian virtues you possess, humility has gone missing.

If you would like a serious discussion on icons, iconography and the view of the Orthodox Church, I stand ready to offer it; but whilst you vaunt your own contributions, denigrate those of others, evade answers to straight questions and seldom offer more than three lines of your own writing, there must remain a question mark over whether you want a discussion - or a polemical exchange to prove you are right. The latter does not interest me.

peace,

Anglian
 
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Uphill Battle

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I would imagine it would be difficult in the beginning to get used to praying without them in Church. It is not a big deal though. Some churches do not have them all around their walls, only in the iconostasis.
They are part of our long Ecclesiastical tradition that dates back to the Catacombs. The usage of symbols in Judaism also verifies to that. As an example is one of Orthodox Churces I have in my area that was a Temple before and the stained windows that they do dipict the Torah and the staff...Those I consider "symbols" that one could get used to observe during corporate prayer.For me all these help to remain focused on prayer during services.
interesting.
 
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simonthezealot

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:bow::bow:
1386.gif

Now doesn't this look ridiculous?
^_^^_^
 
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simonthezealot

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Philothei you can no more prove that the images painted in the catacombs were used in any type of worship than I can prove I am related to simon/peter. People have mourned the loss of loved ones in every place at every time...Epitaphs and pictures denoting a belief are ancient and common.
 
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