Eastern Orthodox View of the Merits of Works

stuart lawrence · Feb 18, 2017

ArmyMatt said:
of myself, I have none

With respect, it isn't a hard question, Paul repeatedly states what is and what is not his justification/ righteousness, so I am a little disappointed you seem not to want to plainly answer the question.
In my view, it does not aid your beliefs if you choose not to answer.
I honestly do not mean this unkindly, but we are speaking of the very core basics here of the christian faith. I would have thought every christian would immediately be able to answer as to what they believe their righteousness Is before God

abacabb3 · Feb 18, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
May I ask you, and abacabb3?

What is your righteousness before God?

The indwelling of the Spirit/union with Christ. 1 Cor 3 says that's what makes us holy, that we are temples of the Spirit. Paul says it is not I that live, but Christ that lives in me. This union accounts us as Christ and we are increasingly transformed into the image of Christ so that what was lost in the Fall is restored by God's grace. This is a process that God works with us as we see in Phil 2:12 and Rom 6:19.

abacabb3 · Feb 18, 2017

Stuart, do you understand the Orthodox position that we are saved, we being saved, and we will be saved? You never addressed my latter posts, though you seemed to agree with my earlier ones which were to the same effect, calling one a thread winner. I am just curious because you asked me the preceding question.

ArmyMatt · Feb 18, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
With respect, it isn't a hard question, Paul repeatedly states what is and what is not his justification/ righteousness, so I am a little disappointed you seem not to want to plainly answer the question.
In my view, it does not aid your beliefs if you choose not to answer.
I honestly do not mean this unkindly, but we are speaking of the very core basics here of the christian faith. I would have thought every christian would immediately be able to answer as to what they believe their righteousness Is before God

I am not choosing not to answer, the problem is that folks nowadays have very different understandings of what that is, and those understandings come with assumptions. I was trying to get us not to talk past each other

stuart lawrence · Feb 18, 2017

abacabb3 said:
Stuart, do you understand the Orthodox position that we are saved, we being saved, and we will be saved? You never addressed my latter posts, though you seemed to agree with my earlier ones which were to the same effect, calling one a thread winner. I am just curious because you asked me the preceding question.

I really have enjoyed reading your posts.

However, I feel I must say, as you and mat seem extremely reluctant to state what you believe is your righteousness before God, This does not bear well, to put it mildly on your christian, or doctrinal beliefs.
Paul was crystal clear as to what his righteousness was, and was not before God. If christians cannot say what they believe their righteousness is, can they really have an assured faith?

Again, I dont mean to be unkind here, but you really should know the answer to This and feel able to state it

stuart lawrence · Feb 18, 2017

ArmyMatt said:
I am not choosing not to answer, the problem is that folks nowadays have very different understandings of what that is, and those understandings come with assumptions. I was trying to get us not to talk past each other

I'm sorry, but the bible is crystal clear as to what a persons righteousness is and isnt. It is very, very plainly written.

Every christian should have no problem whatsoever answering the question, if they accept what the bible repeatedly and plainly states

stuart lawrence · Feb 18, 2017

Is there any EO church member who knows what their righteousness is before God?

abacabb3 · Feb 18, 2017

Stuart, I just gave my answer, the same answer that I gave as a Protestant. We are indwelt with the Spirit, which makes us one with Christ. THat's what makes us righteous, not our own works.

However, individual works are part of the judgment and will result in greater condemnation for some and greater rewards (i.e. Theosis) for others.

Is that a clear enough answer or are you looking for "we are fully credited the righteousness of Christ." Yes, we are. But, why? Because of our union, we ARE CHrist.

To quote Victorinus, a fourth century Father:

Now, because you are one with the reception of the Spirit from Christ, you are Christ. You are therefore sons of God in Christ (Gal 3:29).

But you have been baptized in Christ Jesus, you have received Christ, and you are Christ; you are therefore the seed of Abraham. If an inheritance was promised to the seed, the inheritance was given to you as well, and you are heirs according to the promise (Gal 3:30).

stuart lawrence · Feb 18, 2017

abacabb3 said:
Stuart, I just gave my answer, the same answer that I gave as a Protestant. We are indwelt with the Spirit, which makes us one with Christ. THat's what makes us righteous, not our own works.

However, individual works are part of the judgment and will result in greater condemnation for some and greater rewards (i.e. Theosis) for others.

Is that a clear enough answer or are you looking for "we are fully credited the righteousness of Christ." Yes, we are. But, why? Because of our union, we ARE CHrist.

To quote Victorinus, a fourth century Father:

Now, because you are one with the reception of the Spirit from Christ, you are Christ. You are therefore sons of God in Christ (Gal 3:29).

But you have been baptized in Christ Jesus, you have received Christ, and you are Christ; you are therefore the seed of Abraham. If an inheritance was promised to the seed, the inheritance was given to you as well, and you are heirs according to the promise (Gal 3:30).

Can you give me a bible verse that uses the words.
Our righteousness is being indwelt by the Spirit.
You see, in my bible That is not the definition where righteousness Is repeatedly used.
Why are you not stating what the bible repeatedly and plainly states is the christians righteousness?

stuart lawrence · Feb 18, 2017

I'm sorry, but I have to be honest.

Evading answering what the bible repeatedly and plainly states is the christians righteousness leads me to be very wary of the EO church.
.

I can be left with no other conclusion than EO members are not at peace with what the bible plainly states on the matter
That's just being honest

ArmyMatt · Feb 18, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
I'm sorry, but the bible is crystal clear as to what a persons righteousness is and isnt. It is very, very plainly written.

Every christian should have no problem whatsoever answering the question, if they accept what the bible repeatedly and plainly states

if it were that easy, Christians would not disagree. that is why I want to know what you mean exactly.

stuart lawrence · Feb 18, 2017

ArmyMatt said:
if it were that easy, Christians would not disagree. that is why I want to know what you mean exactly.

Please do not try and turn it round to me in order to evade answering.

The bible I absolutely clear as to what a christians righteousness is and is not.

And yet, EO members are plainly extremely reluctant to affirm what the bible states is their righteousness before God.

I'm afraid that says much

stuart lawrence · Feb 18, 2017

If you don't have a clear view as to what gives you right standing/ righteousness before God, how can you have a credible faith?

ArmyMatt · Feb 18, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
I'm sorry, but I have to be honest.

Evading answering what the bible repeatedly and plainly states is the christians righteousness leads me to be very wary of the EO church.
.

I can be left with no other conclusion than EO members are not at peace with what the bible plainly states on the matter
That's just being honest

no one is evading anything. what the Bible says is not the issue. the issue is in interpretation. you say it is plain, but since it was written in Greek 2000 years ago, people don't agree on the meaning. hence me asking what do you mean in your questions

stuart lawrence · Feb 18, 2017

ArmyMatt said:
no one is evading anything. what the Bible says is not the issue. the issue is in interpretation. you say it is plain, but since it was written in Greek 2000 years ago, people don't agree on the meaning. hence me asking what do you mean in your questions

This is awful, it truly is

ArmyMatt · Feb 18, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
If you don't have a clear view as to what gives you right standing/ righteousness before God, how can you have a credible faith?

who says we don't?

stuart lawrence · Feb 18, 2017

Anastasia, do you know what your righteousness is before God?

ArmyMatt · Feb 18, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
This is awful, it truly is

I know, hence me asking what you mean so I know how to address you and what you are saying

stuart lawrence · Feb 18, 2017

ArmyMatt said:
who says we don't?

Well if you do have a clear view you are obviously very reticent to state what that view is.
That in itself does not reflect well on your church I'm afraid

stuart lawrence · Feb 18, 2017

ArmyMatt said:
I know, hence me asking what you mean so I know how to address you and what you are saying

Pure deflection

Eastern Orthodox View of the Merits of Works

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