Eastern Orthodox Knowledge Thread

[LamorakDesGalis]

The replies and information are very good.

Questions regarding the 15 autocephalous (independent) bodies:
. Are these churches confined geographically? Or do they have any "presence" outside their geographical region (i.e., Serbian Church in the United States)?

. Is the title "pope" reserved only for the Bishop of Alexandria? I'm interested in a fuller explanation for the title of "pope" as applied in the Eastern Orthodox churches.

. What is the Eastern Orthodox concept regarding "full communion" and related terms? Sorry if that's not a clear question...I guess I'm mainly asking the relationship between the EO bodies, and between EO and the Oriental Churches, etc.

. Could you describe a worship service?


LDG

 

[Julina]

The replies and information are very good.

Questions regarding the 15 autocephalous (independent) bodies:
. Are these churches confined geographically? Or do they have any "presence" outside their geographical region (i.e., Serbian Church in the United States)?

. Is the title "pope" reserved only for the Bishop of Alexandria? I'm interested in a fuller explanation for the title of "pope" as applied in the Eastern Orthodox churches.

. What is the Eastern Orthodox concept regarding "full communion" and related terms? Sorry if that's not a clear question...I guess I'm mainly asking the relationship between the EO bodies, and between EO and the Oriental Churches, etc.

. Could you describe a worship service?


LDG

1. the churches are definitely not confined geographically! http://www.orthodoxyinamerica.org/ has a list of jurisdictions and parishes in the north america, and there are some Serbian churches in the US!

2. as far as i know, the pope is just a catholic title. the Bishop of Alexandria is probably the equivalent for Orthodox, but i don't know why or how. help?

3. i know what you're asking, and i think i know the answer, but someone else can probably explain it better than i can. there are some beliefs that OO have different from the EO about the nature of Christ, but most everything else is the same.

4. a sunday liturgy is at least an hour long, and everything is chanted, including the readings and the lord's prayer. the first half of the service is for readings and prayers, and the second half is devoted to communion.

 

[nestoj]

2. "Pope" is more of a nick-title - it has no special meaning. I think it entered the usage as people used to refer a particular Bishop as "father", so it just was accepted as parallel way of naming a particular Bishop.

3. Full Communion is the same theology and common sacraments (ability to engage in Liturgy and Sacraments regardless of jurisdiction). We're not in full communion with the OOC.

4. Depends on the service. But, the Liturgy includes gospel readings, reading the apostles, psalms, prayers and communion. For the largest part, it's one continuous prayer and worship of God. Perhaps the closest description I could give by referring to scripture is the service in heaven described in the Book of Apocolapsis.

Glimpse:

My church:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vNgHm3SJ3E

Somewhere in Australia (English):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rViehD52SBU

 

[Thekla]

The replies and information are very good.

Questions regarding the 15 autocephalous (independent) bodies:
. Are these churches confined geographically? Or do they have any any presence" outside their geographical region (i.e., Serbian Church in the United States)?

I echo Julina's response
Where I live, there are more than half a dozen parishes of at least four different jurisdictions. During Lent, parishes take turns hosting the Saturday evening Vespers. Its wonderful to pray together, and experience the different expressions of the same iconography, hymns, etc. Then of course, afterward we eat together - we are EO - and can share our fasting recipes, too.

The present jurisdictions have a worldwide presence, too. South and Central America, Africa, Cuba (both Russian and Greek) and within the last two or so years a GOrthodox Church in now both South and North Korea. I don't know as much about other jurisdictions footprints worldwide. In general, the Church tends to follow the footsteps of emigrants; in this manner permanent communities are planted and grow. It is not just a matter of "converting" newcomers to these Churches, they are received into a Christian family and nourished there long term.

. Is the title "pope" reserved only for the Bishop of Alexandria? I'm interested in a fuller explanation for the title of "pope" as applied in the Eastern Orthodox churches.

IIRC, pope is a regionalism meaning "papa/daddy". Thus the title pope is of African origin and is still used for the episkopos there( and in Rome).

. What is the Eastern Orthodox concept regarding "full communion" and related terms? Sorry if that's not a clear question...I guess I'm mainly asking the relationship between the EO bodies, and between EO and the Oriental Churches, etc.

The sharing of sacraments. We can (and do) receive communion in any parish in communion with us, worldwide. The OO did not accept a 5th. c. Ecumenical Council (Calcedon). The theological issues - if you're really interested, may I leave that for someone else. But as mentioned, after a long period of talks ( in God-time its only been the blink of an eye )it seems the indication 'the same' was expressed in different way. We await finalization.

. Could you describe a worship service?

That is hard, maybe. The Liturgy is preceded by Orthros (Psalms and other Scripture), about an hour or so - depending on the tone of the week and the chanter. Some people arrive for only Liturgy; depending on how Orthros goes, I've found one can arrive on time and be ten minutes early or ten minutes late Then Liturgy, about an hour and a half, cycles through prayers and prepearations, readings -- all re-presenting the life and ministry of Christ. This re-presentation is echoed even by the times of opening and closing of the "Royal Doors" in the iconostasis. (Sometimes following Liturgy there can be one or more small services, perhaps a blessing of the loaves - or a memorial for a departed family member.)

The Liturgy is mostly chanted, and composed about 90% of scriptural quotes. Some hymns are the same for every Liturgy, others change (one of 8 Resurrection hymns, hymns for the Liturgical season, ie Winter or Spring 'Lent', particular Saints, Paschal or Pentecostal, etc.).

The Liturgy is boldly, repeatedly and joyfully Trinitarian - an aspect of worship I didn't experience in other Church's worship.

One line from the Liturgy that comes to mind now:

"Let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God."

(it makes my heart skip )


LDG[/quote]

 

[Thekla]

Nestoj, that is beautiful !
what a blessing !!!

 

[nestoj]

Nestoj, that is beautiful !
what a blessing !!!

The Icons were almost entirely destroyed in a fire few years ago . New Iconostasis is placed, but I still can't get used to these walls.

 

[Thekla]

The Icons were almost entirely destroyed in a fire few years ago . New Iconostasis is placed, but I still can't get used to these walls.

Lord have mercy !

my daughter was wondering what happened to the icons ...

 

[prodromos]

In the Greek tradition, the service begins the afternoon before with the "esperinos" (vespers) at sundown. The next morning is "orthros" (matins) followed immediately by "theia liturgia" (divine liturgy). There are also occasionally services where all three are together called "agripneia" (vigil), usually starting around 10.30-11.00pm and lasting until the wee hours of the morning, though some can last around 5 hours. My favorite vigil service is of course, Pascha (Easter).

In the Russian tradition I believe they have vespers and matins together on the evening before, then the next morning they have a service which is known as "the hours" followed by divine liturgy. I hope someone will correct me if I am wrong about this, but it was my experience at the Russian church I have visited.

John

 

[prodromos]

On the iconostasis, Christ is in the middle where the royal doors are situated. He is both on the left side as "Lord Almighty" (pantocrator) and on the right side as the Christ child in the arms of His mother Mary the Theotokos. Thus the royal doors are symbolic of Christ being the door. To the left of the royal doors is an icon of Mary holding the Christ child as mentioned above. To the right of the icon of Christ is usually, though not always, an icon of St John the Forerunner. Some smaller churches do not have enough space for a full iconostasis and so will usually have an icon of the saint or event to which this particular church is dedicated in that position. The standard however, is with Christ in the centre and Mary the Theotokos and John the Baptist on His right and left hand. In this we see reflected the understanding of the Church with regards to who Christ was speaking of when He told the brothers James and John, "but to sit on my right hand or on my left is not mine to give, but for those for whom it is prepared."

John

 

[Chesterton]

To the left of the royal doors is an icon of Mary holding the Christ child as mentioned above.

I read somewhere that it's a rule of Orthodox iconography that Mary isn't portrayed by herself, but always holding the Christ child. Is that right?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I read somewhere that it's a rule of Orthodox iconography that Mary isn't portrayed by herself, but always holding the Christ child. Is that right?

Festal Icons that depict scenes before Christ was born are the only ones that I have seen.

Joachim and Anna had promised to dedicate their child to the service of God.

When Mary was three years old they brought her to the Temple. Other young girls followed her as she climbed fifteen steps to the sanctuary.

Mary then climbed to the very top step where she met the high priest, Zacharius. Moved by the Holy Spirit he led her into the Holy Chamber that he alone was allowed to enter only once a year.

Choosing a higher calling Mary remained in the Temple for twelve years and dedicated the rest of her life to God, remaining a Virgin forever.

Mary is shown a second time at the top of the icon being approached by an angel.

Otherwise Mary is always shown presenting Christ. I think of it as her eternal Liturgical duties.

Forgive me...

 

[Musa80]

Festal Icons that depict scenes before Christ was born are the only ones that I have seen.


Otherwise Mary is always shown presenting Christ. I think of it as her eternal Liturgical duties.

Forgive me...

I think icons of the Dormition also show her not holding Christ, but that's all I can think of.

 

[Thekla]

and the deisis icons, where she is shown worshiping/supplicating Christ

 

[E.C.]

In the Greek tradition, the service begins the afternoon before with the "esperinos" (vespers) at sundown. The next morning is "orthros" (matins) followed immediately by "theia liturgia" (divine liturgy). There are also occasionally services where all three are together called "agripneia" (vigil), usually starting around 10.30-11.00pm and lasting until the wee hours of the morning, though some can last around 5 hours. My favorite vigil service is of course, Pascha (Easter).

In the Russian tradition I believe they have vespers and matins together on the evening before, then the next morning they have a service which is known as "the hours" followed by divine liturgy. I hope someone will correct me if I am wrong about this, but it was my experience at the Russian church I have visited.

John

I'm OCA and we typically have Vespers on Saturday evening and then Matins before Liturgy.

Sometimes, I believe during Lent, we'll have the vigil of Vespers and Matins Saturday night and then the 3rd and 6th Hours before Liturgy. At my parish we typically have the Hours during the summer months.

I read somewhere that it's a rule of Orthodox iconography that Mary isn't portrayed by herself, but always holding the Christ child. Is that right?

Something like that. A large number of those icons also have her pointing her hand towards Christ to show that He is the way, the one to follow.

I can only think of two icons that have the Theotokos with no Christ. One would be of the Nativity of the Theotokos (see OrthodoxyUSA's post) and the other would be of the Annunciation.

I think icons of the Dormition also show her not holding Christ, but that's all I can think of.

Even then, Christ is still there standing over her.

 

[-Kyriaki-]

She isn't always holding Christ - the Joy of All Who Sorrow icon has her standing, but Christ above, for instance. But He's always present except in the aforementioned festal icons where it doesn't make logical sense

 

[Julina]

I read somewhere that it's a rule of Orthodox iconography that Mary isn't portrayed by herself, but always holding the Christ child. Is that right?

yes, or at least he's there somehow

 

[Uphill Battle]

from what I've seen, Christ figures prominently in the vast majority of Icons.

 

[Thekla]

from what I've seen, Christ figures prominently in the vast majority of Icons.

Yes, and in a sense also even in the icons of particular Saints when Christ is not shown. Not only is there a stylistic visual similarity, (He is the first-born, the Master, the pattern and it is Christ that is to be revealed in us, without losing our "person") but other indications as well. For example, the particular pose of the fingers of a Saint in some icons spell the first letters of "Jesus Christ conquers" in Greek.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I have had it pointed out to me that Mary was the first, and largest thing they saw when looking into a Nave.

Then, I gently remind them that she is presenting Christ.

By and large they miss the one of Christ the Pantocrator on the ceiling. (see post #12)

I feel surrounded by the cloud of witnesses, they give my eyes something to look at during Worship. The Liturgy is supposed to involve ALL the senses.

"Let us now lay aside, all earthly care." (A line from the Liturgy) This is much easier to do when all your senses are involved.

Forgive me...

 

[Kristos]

That's not Mary - that's the mercy seat