Easiest Defense of Sola Scriptura

[South Bound]

This is not going to be some long winded word game. It is easy.

1) God's Word is True, incontrovertibly true.
2) Scripture is God's Word.
3) Scripture is incontrovertibly true.

4) Prove another source of incontrovertible truth.
5) No other physical source of incontrovertible truth on earth has been proven.

By default, there is only Sola Scriptura.

Yes, there have been multiple threads on SS. The problem is that all the attacks on SS put the burden to prove there are no other source of incontrovertible truth on the holders to SS. How ridiculous is that? The burden is on those that believe in another source of incontrovertible truth. Despite being asked multiple times in other threads, no proof has been given for incontrovertible truth in any other earthly source.

So if you think anything but SS, I challenge you to prove to me another source of incontrovertible truth.

There are numerous verses supporting the Biblical doctrine of sola scripture and numerous writings by the ECFs. which the Catholics love to claim as there's until they say soething inconvenient. but essentially what the Biblical doctrine of sola scriptura comes down to is. if you don't believe the Biblical doctrine of sola scriptura then what authority do you believe is higher and more authoritative than God's Word.

((Note to moderators: By pointing out the inconsistency Catholics show regarding the ECFs I am in no way stating nor implying that Catholics are not Christians.))

 

[Wolf_Says]

Can you list a single tradition/doctrine necessary for salvation that is not in scripture? If you can't do that than, complete it is.

I have asked Catholics this and they can't. Maybe you can.

Sorry, I already have and you just refuse to listen or you just skip over everything that I said.

 

[Albion]

Can you list a single tradition/doctrine necessary for salvation that is not in scripture? If you can't do that than, complete it is.

I have asked Catholics this and they can't. Maybe you can.

As we see now, no he cannot. But neither can any of the others here who have been asked the same question repeatedly and by different posters.

 

[samir]

It's true that the RCC granted--and still does grant--indulgences for good deeds. But an indulgence has meaning ONLY as it relates to Purgatory, which is NOT a tradition but was invented during the Late Middle Ages, shortly before it became an issue in the German states and with Dr. Luther.

You're misinformed. Purgatory/purification after death is taught in scripture and can be found in the writings of the ECFs.

 

[Albion]

You're misinformed. Purgatory/purification after death is taught in scripture and can be found in the writings of the ECFs.

Neither of those is true. (Whew. That was easy)

 

[samir]

You're mistaken.

No, I'm not. I've studied the issue and confirmed it from official RC sources. You, OTOH, have nothing. No evidence to support your claims.

Not only does my church teach when you cease to breathe, your brain waves go flat, and your heart stops beating, it's called being "dead," but so does every other one.

Sad. Looks like the churches you know are still stuck in the Old Covenant and haven't heard about the resurrection. Christian churches don't agree. Christians believe the saints go to Heaven when the die.

There is no "the Protestant Church, " either, so you're trying to make the RCC look united by comparing it--a single denomination--with thousands of other churches at once. I can make almost any denomination look to be the One True Church if I pull that trick.

It is a fact the RCC is united as one church while Protestants are divided into thousands of denominations. No use trying to deny it.

 

[Wolf_Says]

Neither of those is true. (Whew. That was easy)

Actually, Albion, he is correct.

Biblical proof for purgatory
2 Maccabees 12: 38-45 (RSVCE)
Then Judas assembled his army and went to the city of Adul′lam. As the seventh day was coming on, they purified themselves according to the custom, and they kept the sabbath there.

39 On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers. 40 Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jam′nia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. 41 So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; 42 and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

In the NT
Matthew 5:24-26 (parable for purgatory. We are pure in heaven, and there is no salvation in hell, so where is this prison that we go to pay our "coins" aka sins?)
Matthew 12:31-32 (if we are pure in heaven, where can sins be forgiven in this age to come?)
Matthew 18:23-35 (same parable, God will send us to jail to repay our debt, but we are pure in heaven, so where is this jail?)
1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (what is this fire to test our works? And even if our works burn up we will suffer but we will still be saved. We do not suffer in heaven, and our works cannot be judged until after our death.)
Hebrews 12:22-24 (who are the just men MADE perfect? Obviously they were not perfect when they died, but were MADE perfect. Where?)
Philippians 2:9-11 (where is this under the earth? Not hell, as that is the devils domain, and it is obviously a seperate place to both earth and heaven, so what is this place under the earth that all knees shall bow before Jesus?)

These clearly point to a place, outside of heaven and earth, where we will go to be to repay our sins, and we shall still bow to Jesus as Lord. This rules out hell, so where else could this be but Purgatory?

ECFs on the teachings of Purgatory/place to become pure after death
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/1776418/posts
http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_purgatory.htm
http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/purgatory_church_fathers.php

 

[Albion]

No, I'm not. I've studied the issue and confirmed it from official RC sources. You, OTOH, have nothing. No evidence to support your claims.

Oh, how about I give you the equivalent of what you offer as "evidence" of your own claims. I have studied the issue and confirmed it from official Protestant--and RC--sources. You, OTOH, have nothing but memorized lines from some Catholic piece of literature.

 

[samir]

Neither of those is true. (Whew. That was easy)

More false witness. I guess that's no big deal since you think faith alone is all you need. Thanks for confirming the rotten fruit of popular modern day Protestantism.

 

[samir]

Oh, how about I give you the equivalent of what you offer as "evidence" of your own claims. I have studied the issue and confirmed it from official Protestant--and RC--sources. You, OTOH, have nothing but memorized lines from some Catholic piece of literature.

Post the official Protestant source. It doesn't exist.

 

[samir]

Actually, Albion, he is correct.

Biblical proof for purgatory
2 Maccabees 12: 38-45 (RSVCE)
Then Judas assembled his army and went to the city of Adul′lam. As the seventh day was coming on, they purified themselves according to the custom, and they kept the sabbath there.

39 On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers. 40 Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jam′nia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. 41 So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; 42 and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

In the NT
Matthew 5:24-26 (parable for purgatory. We are pure in heaven, and there is no salvation in hell, so where is this prison that we go to pay our "coins" aka sins?)
Matthew 12:31-32 (if we are pure in heaven, where can sins be forgiven in this age to come?)
Matthew 18:23-35 (same parable, God will send us to jail to repay our debt, but we are pure in heaven, so where is this jail?)
1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (what is this fire to test our works? And even if our works burn up we will suffer but we will still be saved. We do not suffer in heaven, and our works cannot be judged until after our death.)
Hebrews 12:22-24 (who are the just men MADE perfect? Obviously they were not perfect when they died, but were MADE perfect. Where?)
Philippians 2:9-11 (where is this under the earth? Not hell, as that is the devils domain, and it is obviously a seperate place to both earth and heaven, so what is this place under the earth that all knees shall bow before Jesus?)

These clearly point to a place, outside of heaven and earth, where we will go to be to repay our sins, and we shall still bow to Jesus as Lord. This rules out hell, so where else could this be but Purgatory?

ECFs on the teachings of Purgatory/place to become pure after death
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/1776418/posts
http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_purgatory.htm
http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/purgatory_church_fathers.php

Great verses but I don't think Albion or most Protestants care what scripture says. They just want to follow their man-made traditions, proclaim they are right, and judge everyone else who doesn't agree with them to puff up their pride. I always feel like I'm wasting my time when I talk to other Protestants because they never listen or seem to care about things like scripture, truth, and facts.

 

[Albion]

Actually, Albion, he is correct.

I don't want to be snappish with you, but Maccabees only reports that some Jews prayed for their dead colleagues. It does not comment the action to us and Maccabees, as part of the Deutero-Canonical books is simply a morality tale. It's purpose is to teach moral lessons, but no doctrines are based upon these books.

In the NT
Matthew 5:24-26 (parable for purgatory. We are pure in heaven, and there is no salvation in hell, so where is this prison that we go to pay our "coins" aka sins?)
Matthew 12:31-32 (if we are pure in heaven, where can sins be forgiven in this age to come?)
Matthew 18:23-35 (same parable, God will send us to jail to repay our debt, but we are pure in heaven, so where is this jail?)

Here, you're making assumptions and calling for speculation. But even if one were to go along with that kind of use of Scripture--where is the Purgatory? Nothing in this defines Purgatory or says what it's supposed to be all about, or any of that. You merely have presented an unanswered question to us. And there are many possible answers. The same applies to the rest of your citations. None actually describes Purgatory or any of the many intricate operations and functions, etc. that the RCC has assigned to the concept. Where are indulgences, the difference between forgiven mortal sins and unforgiven venial ones, the "Treasury of Merit," etc. etc.?

These clearly point to a place, outside of heaven and earth, where we will go to be to repay our sins, and we shall still bow to Jesus as Lord. This rules out hell, so where else could this be but Purgatory?

Clearly? No, but don't you see that this Purgatory is something created (in the Middle Ages, since any kind of Purgatory was unknown in the Apostolic Church which expected the Second Coming to be imminent, making any sort of Purgatory superfluous) out of speculation? We do not understand all the workings of God, so we take a few words like "fire" and make something up.

 

[Wolf_Says]

Great verses but I don't think Albion or most Protestants care what scripture says. They just want to follow their man-made traditions, proclaim they are right, and judge everyone else who doesn't agree with them to puff up their pride. I always feel like I'm wasting my time when I talk to other Protestants because they never listen or seem to care about things like scripture, truth, and facts.

Meh, personally I think Albion is rather intelligent, if not arrogant some times. He said it was not found in scripture or in the ECFs, I posted otherwise.

I personally only stop when it becomes apparent that they have no wish to actually formulate an argument and just continue to call you names. Albion, to my knowledge, has not done this (at least to me) so I am willing to continue.

 

[Wolf_Says]

I don't want to be snappish with you, but Maccabees only reports that some Jews prayed for their dead colleagues. It does not comment the action to us and Maccabees, as part of the Deutero-Canonical books is simply a morality tale. It's purpose is to teach moral lessons, but no doctrines are based upon these books.

Before Martin Luther removed them, the 7 books of the Deuterocononical were considered sacred scripture and were a part of the OT. Martin Luther removed them because the Jews had kept them out of their Hebrew Bible because they could not find a hebrew original text, and were afraid of letting greek culture invade their jewish culture.

However, from the late 4th century when the Bible as we know it today was given to the world, to the 1500s, they were a part of sacred scripture. Today, the Orthodox and Catholic Churches still believe that these 7 books are a part of sacred scripture.

Here, you're making assumptions and calling for speculation. But even if one were to go along with that kind of use of Scripture--where is the Purgatory? Nothing in this defines Purgatory or says what it's supposed to be all about, or any of that. You merely have presented an unanswered question to us. And there are many possible answers. The same applies to the rest of your citations. None actually describes Purgatory or any of the many intricate operations and functions, etc. that the RCC has assigned to the concept. Where are indulgences, the difference between forgiven mortal sins and unforgiven venial ones, the "Treasury of Merit," etc. etc.?

You did not take every verse I posted. Please give me your definition of Purgatory, what do you think it consists of. Just for clarification please

Clearly? No, but don't you see that this Purgatory is something created (in the Middle Ages, since any kind of Purgatory was unknown in the Apostolic Church which expected the Second Coming to be imminent, making any sort of Purgatory superfluous) out of speculation? We do not understand all the workings of God, so we take a few words like "fire" and make something up.

Purgatory was not created in the Middle Ages, I gave you proof of quotes from the ECFs well before the middle ages that show they believed in a place after death for purification.

 

[Albion]

Having had a few minutes to peruse those links, Wolf, I see that not a single one of those ECF is from the first century, when, as I said, no belief in a Purgatory was present. In addition, a selection of EFCs doesn't mean much anyway since its the UNANIMITY of the ECFs that determines the correctness of a teaching (at least according to the RCC). And then too, we still have no actual "Purgatory!" At best, what we have there are the bare bones of a concept of some sort of purification process, but not Purgatory which, as I said, has a lot of specific functions and processes etc. None of that is to be found there. So, as we can say with all sorts of ideas that were kicked around by Origen or Tertullian or Augustine in antiquity, they remain just speculation, although not in this case since the RCC decided to build a very specific and new place in the afterlife (but not until the 15th century) to meet the thinking of the Late Middle Ages.

 

[Albion]

Before Martin Luther removed them, the 7 books of the Deuterocononical were considered sacred scripture and were a part of the OT.

They were provisionally accepted in the 4th century; the Jews (from whom we got them, obviously) were divided right down the middle themselves as to whether they were part of the Scriptures or not. After Luther, the RCC removed some of the Apocrypha itself. Incidentally, the Lutherans and Anglicans did not eliminate them. They both still read them in worship, but they are not considered appropriate for establishing any doctrine, being instead studies in "morals and manners."

 

[samir]

Having had a few minutes to peruse those links, Wolf, I see that not a single one of those ECF is from the first century, when, as I said, no belief in a Purgatory was present.

That is not what you said. You said purgatory wasn't taught by the ECFs. Now that you've been refuted, you claim you said it wasn't taught by the ECFs in the first century. That's a lie.

Also, I'm sure you're aware there are few writings from the first century (Clement, Didache, anything else?) and they were written for specific purposes so it would be unreasonable to expect them to mention every apostolic tradition so it is deceitful to claim something wasn't taught because it's not found in their writings.

In addition, a selection of EFCs doesn't mean much anyway since its the UNANIMITY of the ECFs that determines the correctness of a teaching (at least according to the RCC).

That's false too.

And then too, we still have no actual "Purgatory!" At best, what we have there are the bare bones of a concept of some sort of purification process, but not Purgatory which, as I said, has a lot of specific functions and processes etc.

Not true either.

None of that is to be found there. So, as we can say with all sorts of ideas that were kicked around by Origen or Tertullian or Augustine in antiquity, they remain just speculation, although not in this case since the RCC decided to build a very specific and new place in the afterlife (but not until the 15th century) to meet the thinking of the Late Middle Ages.

Wrong again.

 

[samir]

After Luther, the RCC removed some of the Apocrypha itself.

Do you have a source for that claim or did you just make it up?

 

[Albion]

Purgatory was not created in the Middle Ages, I gave you proof of quotes from the ECFs well before the middle ages that show they believed in a place after death for purification.

With respect, you really cannot say this. If 10% of the features assigned to the Purgatory that the church created in the Middle Ages has some connection to either a verse in Scripture OR a comment by a second or third century church leader, you haven't got "Purgatory" any more than proving the existence of a wheel in antiquity proves that a Chevrolet was invented in the first century.

 

[Albion]

Sorry, I already have and you just refuse to listen or you just skip over everything that I said.

Maybe you could just name a few. No elaboration necessary.