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Well, it's not a "work," so they are wrong and there's no theological issue there.Regarding water baptism, some people feel that it can't be required for salvation, because baptism is a work, and salvation isn't based on works, but on faith alone
Methinks you needs to learn what phrases mean, rather than taking them apart to decipher them.It's obvious that your statement that there were "little to no massacres" is wrong, and which is the other extreme of overblown, which some, not all, may have been. Certainly Islam fosters murderers also, and civil powers are right in combating them by the use of the sword.
Absolutely incorrect. Your supposition that being against a Jewish state is opposition to Zionism, that is.In The Popes Against the Jews : The Vatican's Role in the Rise of Modern Anti-Semitism, historian David Kertzer notes,
So after marginalizing the role of lay Catholics you invoke one as if he represents historical Catholic treatment of the Jews?
I left off with The Vatican's Role in the Rise of Modern Anti-Semitism, and while we could look at the Catholic persecution of the Jews in Inquisitions, let us look at Rome attitudes toward the Jewish homeland:
Until 1948 the Pope was motivated by the traditional Vatican opposition to Zionism. Vatican opposition to a Jewish homeland stemmed largely from theological doctrines regarding Judaism.[40] In 1904, the Zionist leader Theodor Herzl obtained an audience with Pope Pius X in the hope of persuading the pontiff to support the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. The pope's response was: "Non possumus"--"We cannot."
My Wiki contradicts your wiki...In 1917, Pius X's successor, Pope Benedict XV, equally refused to support any concept for a Jewish state. Minerbi writes that when a League of Nations mandate were being proposed for Palestine, the Vatican was disturbed by the prospect of a (Protestant) British mandate over the Holy Land, but a Jewish state was anathema to it.[27][41]
On 22 June 1943, Amleto Giovanni Cicognani, the Apostolic Delegate to Washington D.C. wrote to US President Franklin Roosevelt, asking him to prevent the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. ...
If the greater part of Palestine is given to the Jewish people, this would be a severe blow to the religious attachment of Catholics to this land. To have the Jewish people in the majority would be to interfere with the peaceful exercise of these rights in the Holy Land already vested in Catholics.
It is true that at one time Palestine was inhabited by the Hebrew Race, but there is no axiom in history to substantiate the necessity of a people returning to a country they left nineteen centuries before.[42]
The Vatican view of the Near East was dominated by a Cold War perception that Arab Muslims are conservative but religious, whereas Israeli Zionists are modernist but atheists. The Vatican's then Foreign Minister, Domenico Tardini (without being even a bishop, but a close collaborator of Pius XII) said to the French ambassador in November 1957, according to an Israeli diplomatic dispatch from Rome to Jerusalem:
Protection of the sites where Jesus' life occurred was more important to the Church than political issues between the Arabs and JEws."I have always been of the opinion that there never was an overriding reason for this state to be established. It was the fault of the western states. Its existence is an inherent risk factor for war in the Middle East. Now, Israel exists, and there is certainly no way to destroy it, but every day we pay the price of this error."[45]
by initially siding with Palestinian claims for compensations on political, social and financial levels, the Vatican shaped its Middle Eastern policy since 1948 upon two pillars. One was based on political and theological reservations against Zionism,... the Holy See has also maintained reservations of its own. The more established the Zionist Yishuv became in Mandatory Palestine, the more political reservations the Vatican added to its initial theological inhibitions.[51]
On 26 May 1955, when the Israeli Philharmonic Orchestra performed Beethoven's Seventh Symphony at the Vatican as an act of respect for Pius XII, the Vatican still refrained from mentioning the name of the State, preferring instead to describe the orchestra as a collection of "Jewish musicians of fourteen different nationalities."[53]
Paul VI was Pope from 21 June 1963 to 6 August 1978. He strongly defended inter-religious dialogue in the spirit of Nostra Aetate. He was also the first Pope to mention the Palestinian people by name...On 15 January 1973, the Pope met Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir at the Vatican, which was the first meeting between a Pope and an Israeli Prime Minister. At the meeting, the Pope brought up the issues of peace in the Middle East, refugees and the status of the holy places, but no agreement was reached.[58] According to Meir's own account of the meeting, the Pope criticized the Israeli government for its treatment of the Palestinians, and she said in reply: Your Holiness, do you know what my earliest memory is? A pogrom in Kiev. When we were merciful and when we had no homeland and when we were weak, we were led to the gas chambers.[59]
Relations since 1993[edit]
The opening towards the State of Israel by the Vatican was partially a result of Israel's effective control over the entire Holy City since 1967. This forced the Vatican to introduce a pragmatic dimension to its well-known declaratory policy of political denial. Hence, since 1967, Vatican diplomacy vis-à-vis Israel began to waver between two parameters:[/FONT]
A policy of strict and consequent non-recognition of Israel's sovereignty over Jerusalem, far beyond the usual interpretation of international law, as the Holy See still embraces its own ideas regarding the special status of Jerusalem.[/FONT]
A pragmatic policy, through which Catholic interests can best be served by having a working relationship with the party who exercises effective authority and control in Jerusalem.[/FONT]The establishment of full diplomatic relations in 1993–94, on the other hand, was a belated political consequence of the theological change towards Judaism as reflected in Nostra Aetate. It was also a result of the new political reality, which began with the Madrid COnference and later continued with the Oslo peace process, after which the Vatican could not continue to ignore a State that even the Palestinians had initiated formal relations with.
Pope Benedict XVI has declared that he wishes to maintain a positive Christian-Jewish and Vatican-Israel relationship. Indeed, on the occasion of the 60th anniversary of the Jewish state, Benedict stated: "The Holy See joins you in giving thanks to the Lord that the aspirations of the Jewish people for a home in the land of their fathers have been fulfilled,"[72] which may be seen as a theological justification of the return of the Jewish People to Israel – indeed, an acceptance that has placed all previous Catholic denials of Zionism in the shade. On the other hand, he has also stressed the political neutrality of the Holy See in internal Mideast conflicts. Like John Paul II, he was disappointed by the non-resolution of the 1993 Fundamental Accord; and like his predecessor, he also expressed support for a Palestinian state alongside Israel. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_See–Israel_relations[/FONT]
► Evangelical support for Jews.
In contrast, 46% of white evangelical (blacks only make up 6% of evangelicals) Protestants, versus 33% of Prots and only 21% of Catholics say that the U.S. is not providing enough support for Israel. (2014) — http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...or-israel-in-u-s-cuts-across-religious-lines/
As for the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, asked whether they sympathize with either side, 72% of white evangelicals sided with Israel, versus 56% of Prots and 46% of Caths overall. — http://www.people-press.org/files/legacy-pdf/3-19-13 Foreign Policy Release.pdf
Of course, this is consistent with the stats which shows 82% of white evangelical Protestants say that Israel was given to the Jewish people by God, versus 64% of Prots and just 34% of white Catholics, while 45% of Catholics outright deny that it was (others do not know). — http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ews-say-god-gave-israel-to-the-jewish-people/
► Egregious ecumenism in contrast;
In addition, Rome being "friendlier"to Israel means not simply affirming Jews and the right to live in peace but also means affirming that Muslims worship the same God as Jews and Christians, that together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” (Lumen Gentium 16, November 21, 1964)
Which is blasphemous. For with Allah, we are not dealing with an utterly ambiguous "unknown god" as in Acts 17, which had no express revelation and could said to be the true God they were looking for. But Allah is much a distinct God, and in the name of this false deity are the contradictory and skewed Biblical stories of the Qur'an, besides adding its own, and which denies the very essence of the gospel, that of the Divine Son of God procuring salvation with His own sinless shed blood! Yet again and again popes comfort Muslims by assuring them they have the true God, while any gospel is largely replaced by platitudes for peace.
Rome says Muslims the worship the same God as Catholics, "the one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth," and "strive to submit themselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God’s plan." -Second Vatican Council, Nostra Aetate 3, October 28, 1965
And,
We feel sure that as representatives of Islam, you join in our prayers to the Almighty, that he may grant all African believers the desire for pardon and reconciliation so often commended in the Gospels and in the Qur’an... We gladly recall also those confessors of the Muslim faith who were the first to suffer death, in the year 1848, for refusing to transgress the precepts of their religion.” — Paul VI, address to the Islamic communities of Uganda, August 1, 1969.
I deliberately address you as brothers: that is certainly what we are, because we are members of the same human family, whose efforts, whether people realize it or not, tend toward God and the truth that comes from him. But we are especially brothers in God, who created us and whom we are trying to reach, in our own ways, through faith, prayer and worship, through the keeping of his law and through submission to his designs...
Dear Muslims, my brothers: I would like to add that we Christians, just like you, seek the basis and model of mercy in God himself, the God to whom your Book gives the very beautiful name of al-Rahman, while the Bible calls him al-Rahum, the Merciful One.” - John Paul II, address to representatives of Muslims of the Philippines, February 20, 1981
As Christians and Muslims, we encounter one another in faith in the one God, our Creator and guide, our just and merciful judge. - John Paul II, address to representatives of the Muslims of Belgium, May 19, 1985
We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection...Both of us believe in one God, the only God, - John Paul II , address to the young Muslims of Morocco, August 19, 1985
Christians and Muslims, together with the followers of the Jewish religion, belong to what can be called ‘the tradition of Abraham.’..Our Creator and our final judge desires that we live together. Our God is a God of peace, who desires peace among those who live according to His commandments. Our God is the holy God who desires that those who call upon Him live in ways that are holy and upright. -John Paul II, address to Islamic leaders of Senegal, Dakar, February 22, 1992 -http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/interreligious/islam/vatican-council-and-papal-statements-on-islam.cfm[/FONT]
Right, we don't force consent at all. We do make pronouncements, but it's up to you to follow them or not.Thus, it is only a valid jurisdiction upon informed, uncoerced consent.
Government by consent is the only lawful government.
Lincoln removed that. Consent is manufactured by fraud and coercion routinely. That's why are courts administer the UCC instead of constitutional common law.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse, so "legal definitions" we're invented to camouflage conflict of interest and other statist abuses of our God given rights... most of all, to establish jurisdiction.
Define what "All of Scripture" means. Please."ALL of scripture" is mentioned here Luke 24:27 -- are you aware of it??
This is not going to be some long winded word game. It is easy.
1) God's Word is True, incontrovertibly true.
2) Scripture is God's Word.
3) Scripture is incontrovertibly true.
4) Prove another source of incontrovertible truth.
5) No other physical source of incontrovertible truth on earth has been proven.
By default, there is only Sola Scriptura.
Yes, there have been multiple threads on SS. The problem is that all the attacks on SS put the burden to prove there are no other source of incontrovertible truth on the holders to SS. How ridiculous is that? The burden is on those that believe in another source of incontrovertible truth. Despite being asked multiple times in other threads, no proof has been given for incontrovertible truth in any other earthly source.
So if you think anything but SS, I challenge you to prove to me another source of incontrovertible truth.
Yes, And fwiw,Live by the Spirit, and be justified by faith.
Define what "All of Scripture" means. Please.
Josephus included the book of Baruch in the Old Testament. So saying you use his canon is false, because you do not include the canon of Josephus. You use the canon of the Masoretes. That is the first Hebrew canon consisting of only 39 books. Your continued misinformation campaign concerning the Canon of the Old Testament that existed at the time of Christ, which was a hotly debated topic at the time, contrary to your belief, with four camps on the topic, with the Sadducees holding only the Torah was Scripture, the Pharisees holding only their Hebrew texts, and the majority of the rest using the Greek Septuagint because that is what those who could read mostly read, as Hebrew was not the majority language any more, and then another canon in between held by Pliny and Josephus that included the book of Baruch. The idea that the Old Testament was a fixed construct in the time of Christ is a myth. It was a hotly contested topic which continued to be contested for centuries, with the final Masoretic Canon becoming the foundation of the Jews in the 5th century, while the Septuagint was already the standard of the early Church, despite the protest of a minority, by the second century. The vast majority of Christians used the Septuagint as their canon, including St. Athanasius, whose confirmation of the canonicity of the Septuagint was accepted along with his canon of the New Testament in the Council of Carthage.Well at the time of Luke 24:27 - Josephus says it is what we today call the 39 books of the OT.. the Hebrew OT - were a fixed content has been stored in the Temple for over 300 years.
Methinks you needs to learn what phrases mean, rather than taking them apart to decipher them.Absolutely incorrect. Your supposition that being against a Jewish state is opposition to Zionism, that is.
More sophistry, as this is a distinction without a difference. Again WP:
No, her lust was for direct control, either thru or without internationalization of Jerusalem, which is arrogance in either case. The Jews were given the land by God, and lost it by disobedience, but after great suffering the Hebrew people regained a good portion of it, and defended it many times at the cost of much of her own blood and with manifest Divine help, and as a sovereign nation no other entity has a right to control parts out it, any more than the UN does here.a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
Once gain it seems you are seeing what does not exist. I see no real contradiction, just more of the conflicts description, in which you try to the Vatican's opposition to Isrealite sovereignty the case for its long term animus against the Jewish homeland, which, as WP states,"stemmed largely from theological doctrines regarding Judaism."My Wiki contradicts your wiki...
Yes, "the Vatican, the Italian, and the French governments continued to press their own legal claims on the basis of the former Protectorate of the Holy See and the French Protectorate of Jerusalem." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Seethe Vatican did not give up on its objective of direct Catholic control of the Holy Land and the holy places.
And whose land was it before Rome and other conquers? Which God said was never to be sold or relinquished.
The Vatican's official position on the status of Jerusalem was in favour of an internationalization of Jerusalem, in order to keep the holy places away from either Israeli or Arab sovereignty. Protection of the sites where Jesus' life occurred was more important to the Church than political issues between the Arabs and JEws.
Actually, you did indeed say that "There is only one Catholic Church, the one Christ founded, to which Paul referred (One faith, one baptism, one Lord)."So what's your problem with Catholics saying we are the body of Christ (of course, showing it as well)? ...I didn't say there was only one Catholic Church, though that is true.
Which is a distinction without a difference. If only one Catholic Church, the one Christ founded, to which Paul referred If the one Body of Christ which Paul referred is the one Catholic Church then its excludes all others from being part of that body." I said that there is only one Body of Christ, and that is catholic, "
Which, as your traditionalists charge, is obviously different than the time in which those who are not in submission to Rome, who do not remain in the bosom of the RCC, were excluded as being part of the body of Christ." I guess you don't understand what "abandon the See of Peter" means to us, today, do you..."
Actually when the Hebrew canon became fixed is a hotly contested topic, but that they did not consider the Deutros (Apocrypha) Scripture is rather well established, and Septuagint will not help you here, and resulted in the general rejection of apocryphal books by 4th c. Jerome as being Scripture proper.The idea that the Old Testament was a fixed construct in the time of Christ is a myth. It was a hotly contested topic which continued to be contested for centuries, with the final Masoretic Canon becoming the foundation of the Jews in the 5th century,
But that the Septuagint of the 1st century contained the Deutros is what is unsubstantiated, and the great lack of uniformity even among later mss at best indicates an uncertain status, and does not help your case.while the Septuagint was already the standard of the early Church, despite the protest of a minority, by the second century.
The vast majority of Christians used the Septuagint as their canon, including St. Athanasius, whose confirmation of the canonicity of the Septuagint was accepted along with his canon of the New Testament in the Council of Carthage.
Which is more presumption, as you only assume that the NT church held to the deutros even though nothing from it is quoted or referenced from it as Scripture, or authoritative as "it is written," "thus saith the Lord" or the like, while possible (sparse) references to apocryphal texts no more make such Scripture proper than does even quoting truth from Enoch or pagan poets.The Canon you see in Protestant Bibles today was never used by the Church prior to the Reformation.
Which is another unproven assumption, since "removal"presumes these books were held as being Scripture at least by those who sat in the seat of Moses, which is doubtful. Note also that the belief that there was a Council of Jamnia which settled the Hebrew canon is largely abandoned by modern scholars."It was never used because the primary purpose of the removal of those books by the Jews was to remove references to Christ from their canon."
Scripture is God's Word, no doubt. The thing is, we don't believe it is ALL of God's Word.This is not going to be some long winded word game. It is easy.
1) God's Word is True, incontrovertibly true.
2) Scripture is God's Word.
3) Scripture is incontrovertibly true.
4) Prove another source of incontrovertible truth.
5) No other physical source of incontrovertible truth on earth has been proven.
By default, there is only Sola Scriptura.
Yes, there have been multiple threads on SS. The problem is that all the attacks on SS put the burden to prove there are no other source of incontrovertible truth on the holders to SS. How ridiculous is that? The burden is on those that believe in another source of incontrovertible truth. Despite being asked multiple times in other threads, no proof has been given for incontrovertible truth in any other earthly source.
So if you think anything but SS, I challenge you to prove to me another source of incontrovertible truth.
Actually, that's not so. The Sadducees had a different body of Scripture, and it didn't include the Prophets and Wisdom literature. So the question still stands.Well at the time of Luke 24:27 - Josephus says it is what we today call the 39 books of the OT.. the Hebrew OT - were a fixed content has been stored in the Temple for over 300 years.
Yeah, that's kinda the meaning of protestantI completely disagree.
Now we're getting into your opinion, which is like everyone else's.No, her lust was for direct control, either thru or without internationalization of Jerusalem, which is arrogance in either case. The Jews were given the land by God, and lost it by disobedience, but after great suffering the Hebrew people regained a good portion of it, and defended it many times at the cost of much of her own blood and with manifest Divine help, and as a sovereign nation no other entity has a right to control parts out it, any more than the UN does here.
No, it doesn't. I'm sorry you can't tell the difference.Actually, you did indeed say that "There is only one Catholic Church, the one Christ founded, to which Paul referred (One faith, one baptism, one Lord)."
Which is a distinction without a difference. If only one Catholic Church, the one Christ founded, to which Paul referred If the one Body of Christ which Paul referred is the one Catholic Church then its excludes all others from being part of that body.
I have repeatedly said that there is only one Church Christ founded, and that all of us baptized conform to Christ imperfectly, regardless of what label we put on ourselves. As for "RC's" that disagree with me, so what? There's "RC's" that disagree with me on abortion and gay marriage, too. The Church is right, not necessarily those who claim to be part of The Church.Or are you using "catholic" as saying that Church of Christ subsists also in Christian communities separated from Rome? If so, what do you do with the RCs who disagree with you? And if not, then you are saying that the church which Paul referred to is only the RCC, as charged.
See above. People who all claim to be Democrats, Republicans, or members of any denomination don't agree on everything. That's why they tend to splinter from the main group. The main group still exists, though.Which, as your traditionalists charge, is obviously different than the time in which those who are not in submission to Rome, who do not remain in the bosom of the RCC, were excluded as being part of the body of Christ.
Your opinion means little, really.The body of Christ "the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved," is described as that which believes in the Cath Eucharist, and that she has always held that they were "outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium," and that "in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors," that "all who want to belong to the true and only Church of Christ must honor and obey this Apostolic See and Roman Pontiff," for "subjection to the Roman pontiff is necessary for salvation for all Christ's faithful," so that "even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church," and anathematizes those who hold "that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy." Sources
You can spin this to mean that properly baptized faithful Prots fulfil all these requirements, and thus can be part of this body, but which makes your magisterial office and or you look like sophists.
Very well. So we agree to what we mean when we say "Tradition."Scripture is God's Word, no doubt. The thing is, we don't believe it is ALL of God's Word.
On that I have to disagree, my friend. There have been many attacks by proponents of the Bible on these forums. That's not to say that you have done so, but there certainly have been a lot of putdowns of Scripture posted.There has actually been NO attack on Scripture at all.
It also doesn't "say" that the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ. Does that mean we are intellectually obligated to believe that it IS actually revelation? And how many other writings that the Bible doesn't comment on fall into the same category?The question is-is Scripture ALL of God's Word, or is it a subset of God's Word? We believe it's the latter, and therefore, Sola Scriptura is not. Even Scripture doesn't say it is the only Word of God...
Without the Tradition of the Church, what authority does a person have to declare any canon to be better than another? But this begs the question:Very well. So we agree to what we mean when we say "Tradition."
On that I have to disagree, my friend. There have been many attacks by proponents of the Bible on these forums. That's not to say that you have done so, but there certainly have been a lot of putdowns of Scripture posted.
It also doesn't "say" that the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ. Does that mean we are intellectually obligated to believe that it IS actually revelation? And how many other writings that the Bible doesn't comment on fall into the same category?
I don't know any Christian who will attack the Bible to say that it's not the word of God.Very well. So we agree to what we mean when we say "Tradition."
On that I have to disagree, my friend. There have been many attacks by proponents of the Bible on these forums. That's not to say that you have done so, but there certainly have been a lot of putdowns of Scripture posted.
It also doesn't "say" that the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ. Does that mean we are intellectually obligated to believe that it IS actually revelation? And how many other writings that the Bible doesn't comment on fall into the same category?
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