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Easiest Defense of Sola Scriptura

Rick Otto

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QUOTE="samir, post: 70130969, member: 382932"]The RCC has never employed the sword of men.
Of course they did and do.
First they made a legal claim of proprietorship over the earth and the souls thereon, with Unam Sanctum. That defined The Two Swords doctrine that laid the groundwork for genocide with the Doctrine of Discovery.


As long as the church is teaching the truth I'm going to follow it regardless of what other people do. Would you leave your denomination is you found out there was a sinner in your congregation?
I am post - denominational.
If i found out that sinner was the leader and was involved in world conquest, my heart would leave it faster than my feet could.
 
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samir

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Of course they did and do.
First they made a legal claim of proprietorship over the earth and the souls thereon, with Unam Sanctum. That defined The Two Swords doctrine that laid the groundwork for genocide with the Doctrine of Discovery.

Thanks for showing the RCC did not employ the sword of men. That document shows the civil government, not the church, is to employ the sword.



I am post - denominational.
If i found out that sinner was the leader and was involved in world conquest, my heart would leave it faster than my feet could.

Jesus commanded his disciples to make disciples of all nations so there is nothing wrong with the RCC trying to convert everyone to Christ.

Matthew 28:19-20 (NKJV) "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you"
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Jesus Christ did leave the apostles with the OT canon. Luke 24.
But the books aren't named, specifically. The question is, why? The Church used the Canon which was read in liturgical celebrations. Because they were used there, they were considered divinely inspired and useful for instruction in holiness.

You need to learn that scripture exists without a church putting a stamp on it and saying this is canon. There may have been multiple canons of the OT during Jesus time. That did not concern Jesus. I wonder why it is so important to the Catholics that they think their church special for creating a table of contents 1700 years ago. Jesus managed somehow to find what was true in scripture and used that to teach his disciples. The NT apostles did the same. We know the important books of OT scriptures because of what? Because Jesus and the apostles quoted them and the message they spoke was congruent to it.

So now we still have multiple canons and various translations based on a variety of source materials. Despite all these differences, the message of salvation still comes through them. If Jesus were here today, I think he would not have a problem with it. If one argues that Jesus still heads the Church/all saints then he has so allowed it as sufficient for his gospel, just as he didn't have a concern with multiple canons in his day.

I'm going to follow scripture and keep the tradition of the church. There is no other alternative since without church tradition there is no bible.
And with slight of hand you equate your Bible created 1700 years ago with scripture and only possible because of your church's traditions. Oh how many things are wrong with such a boast.

Scripture existed the moment it was spoken/written. Most of the NT are letters written by apostles. Others are recorded accounts. Regardless, they were all written down in the 1st century. They were not traditions passed down through word of mouth until the Catholic Church came to power and "Romanized" everything. If the RCC could figure out what was true scripture in the 4th century and the apostles could do the same in the 1st century, then everyone in between and after could do the same. Certainly it does provide some benefit when scriptures are mass produced for there to be an established canon. Before then, the apostles, were taught which texts were true scriptures.

Further look to the OT and Daniel for an example of how scripture is immediately recognized as being the truth. Daniel, a prophet, recognized Jeremiah as a prophet that spoke the word of the Lord. Daniel testifies that Jeremiah's words were recorded and circulated such that he recognized it as scripture. The church of that time was in exile. It did not create a new canon and add Jeremiah's book to it such that Daniel could read it less than seventy years later. So if in the OT times a prophet could recognize true scripture immediately, than the NT apostles and later followers could also recognize true scripture without a canon from some authoritarian institution.

Daniel 9:2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the Lord given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years.
 
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Berean777

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Is it well documented that the heretics you allude to who had been killed by the religious establishment of the day, were in fact Christians. Just because a religious institution labels them as heretics it doesn't mean that they are not Christians, does it?

A significant portion of historians agree that some 100 million plus Christians had been killed due to persecution by the relgious authority in the Middle Ages. The saying no one could buy or sell except he have the mark of the beast, pretty much starved out any opposition to the man beast enterprise and those who didn't succumb to starvation were ended with a sharp instrument or the witches flames.

Here is the excerpt from a reliable university source.....



Here is the link if your interested in reading it completely........

http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/estimates.html

Therefore friend it is not a slander but a statement of fact that you can't dismiss, that is, the heretics you claim to be not Christains were in fact Christains. Do you know that this forum has policy to not call a Christian a heretic or Anti-Christian, regardless of whether they are living today or have passed on. It would be sin to even consider those murdered Christains as heretics and not Christians, where these innocent souls had been murdered at the hands of the 2 horned lamb/Christ like beast/man relgious institution that spoke and acted like a dragon as John tells us in Revelation. These so called heretics you speak of are the true martyrs for Christ. Don't fear men, fear Christ who will use those very words against you in his heavenly court, alongside of him those so called heretics that you labeled, who you will be shocked to find out that they are his jury. It is not looking good for you friend and it will not go down well for you.

I plead with you to refrain from calling Christains who had been martyred for Christ as heretics for this is sin. I know that you hate sin, so stop doing it please for the love of Christ.
 
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Berean777

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Without tradition there is no bible. I had to rely on tradition to quote from scripture.

So you are now implying that tradition came before the written word. Let me re-emphasises that scripture is the written word, that is the testimony of the Living Word Jesus Christ of Nazereth and is the good news, the gospel that was instructed of the disciples to preach as part and parcel of the great commission.

Now you are saying that the tradition arising from the relgious establishment that you hold dearly to heart, is in fact preeminent over and above the very gospel of Jesus Christ.

Hmmmmm..............

I have no words that can explain how wrong you are. In fact if tradition arising from a relgious institution did come before the testimony of Jesus Christ, that is the very gospel that he commanded his disciples to preach from, then you have just unwittingly categorised that relgious establishment as an entity separate to Christ. If the tradition you speak of is the I Am before the testimony of Jesus Christ who is the I Am, then the conclusion that one can make from your statement is that we have a different relgious entity which is separate to Christianity and which came before Christianity. I have just dissected and reinterpreted the consequences of your position arising from your statement that.....

without tradition there is no bible.
 
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Berean777

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False. The commandment prohibits murder, not killing.



Interesting opinion but other than Protestant denominations I don't know any religious establishments that has done that.

Is it not declared by the Lord himself......

Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

Protestants in their defence of being targeted and killed by the religious establishment who wielded the sword would ensure that the Lord' statement above held true, that is those who were drawing the sword will also be opposed with the sword. This by no means is a defence of the acts that Protestants did to defend themselves, rather it shows the works of the relgious establishment that is far from the fruits of the Spirit. Once an alleged relgious establishment claims infallibility and is capable of such horrendous crimes against humanity, then it ceases to be a part of the body of Christ.

The relgious establishment has used their many so called bad popes/Chief Priest princes as scapegoats, so that they can still claim infallibility and sinlessness of the relgious institution itself. It almost begs belief that a head of a relgious enterprise can from a historical point of fact act according to the works of Satan, yet the establishment who made that office possible for him is immune to any blame what so ever. It is almost conceivable that they have made a relgious institution and likened it to God, that is sinless, that is without blame and having no accountability to anything that anyone does within its establishment. This is idolatry at its best.
 
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Berean777

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You see here is my point, that is they liken their religious establishment to God, that is sinless, that is without blame and infallible, having no accountability of anything that anyone does within it, including their pope/chief priest prince. It is almost the relgious entity exists without the need for people, that is they have made a god onto themselves to worship and it can do no wrong, so this is the idol of worship that they have setup, the abomination that maketh desolate for all to worship and to revere, more so than the testimony of the Son Jesus Christ as if it is in itself God himself. From a historical point of view, only mad and delusional men could have schemed up such a monumental lie that now many generations have been brainwashed into. Snap out of it people, a relgious institution is not God, it is not sinless, it is not infallible, it is not living, it is not the way the truth and the life, for you are to come to Jesus and be married to him and not your institution that you call mother. This sad story is the raising of Jezebel who takes the spot light away from the Son.
 
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Berean777

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In the same way Jezebel set the ground work and nudged King Ahab a little to do her dirty work. What makes this relgious institution so likened to a women who uses her external influences to execute her will.

Why did you take @Rick Otto out of context?

Of course they did and do.
First they made a legal claim of proprietorship over the earth and the souls thereon, with Unam Sanctum. That defined The Two Swords doctrine that laid the groundwork for genocide with the Doctrine of Discovery.

Don't you get it, the so called infallible and murderous mother relgious institution setup the policy for its members of its own establishment who served in the government and its high places to do unspeakable crimes. Therefore to lay the groundwork means to open the door for what it intended to do with her opposition.

Offcourse Jezebel couldn't arm wrestle her opposition in order to establish her barbaric dreams, so she setup the framework in Ahab's mind to use his governmental forces to carry out the massacres. God not only charged Ahab for his crimes as an accomplice with Jezebel, but he left Jezebel until last. When God laid hands on Jezebel he ensured that no part of her was left and that all were fed to the dogs of war.

Thus sayeth the Lord of hosts..........

As for Jezebel, dogs will devour her on the plot of ground at Jezreel, and no one will bury her.'" Then he opened the door and ran. (2 Kings 9:10)
 
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Berean777

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We have all been born into this mother of all lies and were brainwashed to serve Jezebel, the murderous mother who kills her children.

2Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

We are living in those very symbolic years within the abomination that causes desolation/destruction that was setup through legislative councils, to make the relgious institution the way, the truth and the life, as if it is Jesus Christ and therefore by doing this, the daily sacrifice who is the lamb of God Jesus Christ was removed and in his place was established Jezebel the alleged infallible mother.
 
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Berean777

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They remain Protestants.

It is not a football game friend. We are not playing and barracking for colours of jerseys.

If it was truly an infallible enterprise as your leaders harp on about, then it would have stayed complete, but no, it was fractured, it fell apart at the seem and all the bells and whistles that proclaimed its glory, was dispersed amongst the nations of the world, who would then carry on the works of Christ.

Wisdom comes by ways of historical evidence and history shows that the relgious enterprise has been emptied of its once pious glory, much like a husbandless widow, she has sought to join herself to the hoards of the world and to cleave onto them on her last dying breath, as she yells and screams come to me world come to my salvation, for I have been abandoned, I once had children, but my children abandoned me and now I must adopt others who are not mine.

Let me prophesy onto you, that even the most zealous who defended her will abandon her and leave her to those hoards who will eat away at her slowly until she looses all the purity and glory that she once lavished in, in those tumultuous days.

1Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm on my holy hill. Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming. It is close at hand

To my brothers and sisters in Christ where they be Catholic or others, the Lord will deliver you, he will not allow you to go off into captivity.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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How so? Jesus said to obey them despite their hypocrisy so how were any of the verses quoted relevant?
If you read all of scripture or at least all of Matthew you would understand. Your Matthew 23:3 teaches to obey the religious leaders. But you are wrong to think one should blindly follow everything a religious leader says; for Jesus had previously taught when to not follow the traditions of the religious leaders. In Matthew 15:2-3 Jesus' disciples clearly DID NOT follow everything the religious leaders said. The Pharisees questioned Jesus on this. Jesus said their traditions broke God's command; and so Jesus presented a way to test and determine if the what the religious leaders said was to be followed. Jesus said to test traditions against God's word in scripture.

Clearly here is yet another example where scripture is held above traditions and religious leaders.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Although I don't think there is anything wrong with killing heretics,
You sound like a radical Muslim; now I understand the source of your dislike of Protestants.
Even so, it still wouldn't prove the RCC wasn't the church Jesus founded because killing heretics was a practice, not a tradition. The most it would prove is that there were sinners in the RCC.
Practice or tradition; oh how you vacillate between words as if it made a difference in what the leadership of a church did. It does not matter what word you call it. The RCC was in error. Just as the chief priest condemned Jesus to death to protect their authority/power, so the RCC did the same.

To profess that such evil atrocities have no reflection of the heart/spirit of the one orchestrating them is absurd. While claiming to maintaining truth in the church, their actions belied their understanding of truth.

John 8:39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.
“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[c] do what Abraham did. 40 As it is,
you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Without tradition there is no bible. I had to rely on tradition to quote from scripture.
Keep on repeating that falsehood, maybe some will believe it. Do you know what a tradition is? A tradition is something passed down. You maintain that the RCC does it perfectly. Understand that if it was by perfect tradition that the canon was determined, than the RCC would not have had to have multiple councils with debate and testimony to determine what books should have been in the NT. It would have been maintained true and passed down without error. There never would have been 300 years of questioning which books should have been included in the NT.

Now the RCC was certainly involved in the setting of the canon. You may say that the Holy Spirit guided the process. You may even say that the church consulted the teachings/traditions of various bishops, but in the end the canon was determined by council and was not a singular true tradition passed down from the original apostles and writers of the books in the NT.

Lastly, the books of the NT were letters/records written in the 1st century and not traditions.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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You're the ones who can't agree as to the Canon of Scripture. It was there for nearly 1200 years, and you 'reformers' decided to take out several books.
No disagreement in the NT. Disagreement in OT which was as it was in Jesus' day. Somehow Jesus did not think it important to set it straight. I guess the RCC knows better. And in all those books taken out by the reformers, is the path to salvation lost; anything necessary there, any critical doctrines there?

And how is this different than what I quoted from Wikipedia?

A biblical canon or canon of scripture[1] is a list of texts (or "books") which a particular religious community regards as authoritative scripture.​

And so you now profess, the canon not a tradition, but something discerned.

So much for your previous answer to my question for a tradition necessary for salvation that is not in scripture.

I guess we are back to square one. Do you have another answer to my question?
 
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sculleywr

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Your logic could use some more logic. Without the Canon, there is no Scripture. The Canon defines Scripture. It is a manmade Tradition that has authority to fundamentally change Scripture itself. That is the exact OPPOSITE of the stance of Sola Scriptura.

According to you, the Bible includes the Canon, which wasn't given by the Apostles, the Prophets, or Christ. And since we're using that stance, it means that Athanasius, the person who wrote the Canon of the New Testament, is equal in authority to the Apostles. Since he used Tradition, and also directly stated, in the same letter as the Canon, that the Wisdom of Solomon is also Scripture.

Your entire statement is based on false premises. Scripture claims it is not complete. It says that in the book of John. It's right there in the text. You claim that Scripture is lying when it says that it isn't able to hold everything that Christ taught.

The fact is that your question is a logical fallacy called a loaded question. You may as well ask me why I hate the Scripture. It's more subtle, but it is a loaded question nonetheless. It is asinine because it ASSUMES the end that YOU want. It ASSUMES that Scripture is separate from Tradition, and it isn't.

Here are things you need to know to worship God that aren't in Scripture:

1. How often do you offer Eucharist?
2. What should accompany the Eucharist?
3. How does one perform a Baptism?
4. How does one perform a Wedding?

You must be able to answer these questions with the same amount of detail that the Old Testament answered questions about the worship of God that you find in the Torah. You can't. Are you telling me that they were necessary in the past and God just didn't care about it for the rest of us?

The fact is that Scripture leaves a lot of things out because it was not intended to be complete and comprehensive. If it were, we would have no need of catechisms, systematic theologies, or creeds.
 
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