Earth vs. the ‘Let There Be Light!’ Big Bang.

[-57]

I politely suggest this is up there with denying the moon-landings.

A little reason, please. Just a little.

While I am not an academic, I at least know something about the way science "is done". And the scenario you describe is simply implausible beyond imagination - it is simply absurd (and I really think you have to know this somewhere deep down) to believe that tens of thousands of scientists have engaged in a massive co-ordinated conspiracy to distort and misrepresent the facts with respect to issue like evolution and the age of the earth.

The problem with the "conspiracy" line is at least four-fold:

1. It is quite absurd, given the number of people who would need to be involved and the number of years that have passed during which all these scientists have remained committed to this putative conspiracy;

2. You have no evidence given that, if you are right, there should be scads of emails and other items of proof that point to a conspiracy. And, at best, you will find nothing more than the very occasional piece of evidence that scientists are not engaged in the kind of wild misrepresentation that such a conspiracy would need.

3. Unlike "religious thinking" which often suppresses free-thinking and challenging the status quo, one of the highest guiding principles of science is to actively challenge the current mainstream thinking. Yes, scientists are human beings and are as vulnerable as any of us to reject ideas that challenges their views. But the system - the set of principles and practices to which scientists commit - acts as a powerful corrective to such biases.

4. There is no plausible motive for scientists to misrepresent the age of the earth. If there were moneyed corporations who had a vested interest in the idea of a young earth, and if they were the ones funding the scientists, then perhaps you would have a case. But to suggest that they are all dedicating their lives to disproving the specifically fundamentalist take on the book of Genesis is, again, wildly improbable.

Then do tell us why it is so easy to present evidence that the earth is young?

Why can I ask questions such as....if the BB happened, then why do the close galaxies look like the galaxies 12 billion LY's away? Those far away galaxies should appear as much younger.

 

[-57]

Then why is there evening and morning the first day?

And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.(Rev. 21:25)

But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. (Zech. 14:7)
​

I think it was the Shekinah because God doesn't work on the firmament, 'atmosphere' till day two. I think it's more likely that he was just clearing the clouds enough for day and night to be discernible. Occam's razor, the simpler answer is better, the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation is' (Wikipedia, Occam's Razor).



Genesis 1:1 is a stand alone account, if it wasn't so short it would be it's own chapter, it is written in absolute terms for 'created', 'beginning' and 'God'. 'Created', is in the Qal perfect absolute, the only time in Scripture that word means a purely absolute creation. 'God' is the plural form of Elohim which has nothing to do with the Trinity, it's a plurality of majesty, it means, 'God almighty' in the strongest possible grammatical construction.

I find it confusing that creationists can see something that is actually easy to see. The creation of the universe and the first day of creation week are separate events. This could end so many pointless dead end arguments and ultimately focus on the one thing at the heart of the emphasis in Genesis and the Gospels, God created life, God created man, God can make you a new creature in Christ. For me there are two primary doctrinal considerations, creation as essential doctrine and the promise of new birth. It's like Creationists have forgotten, creation is a New Testament doctrine.



I'll check it out but astronomy, cosmology and geology are irrelevant to the doctrine of creation. As far as light traveling at a certain speed not reaching us for billions of years. When the universe starts out the size of a walnut and expands into the universe, don't you think light expanded with it?

Grace and peace,
Mark

I don't know if you had a chance to watch the video's...the second was about an hour long and somewhat technical.

The Theo-Evo camp takes original sin out of the garden...and turns it into what it is not. They change the biblical description of what caused our sin nature and why.

I'm still waiting for a Theo-Evo to tell us why we are sinners and need Jesus.

 

[expos4ever]

Then do tell us why it is so easy to present evidence that the earth is young?

I think you know what I will say. It's because that evidence is not legitimate. If it was so obvious that the earth is young, the experts would have to all be unbelievably incompetent or conspiring.

And we are back to the same point - this is simply not believable.

 

[-57]

I think you know what I will say. It's because that evidence is not legitimate. If it was so obvious that the earth is young, the experts would have to all be unbelievably incompetent or conspiring.

And we are back to the same point - this is simply not believable.

You can claim that if you like...but what has happened is that you have not been presented all of the evidence concerning the age of the earth.
Here is a scientific list that presents 101 young earth facts. Scientific experts have developed this list. It is over obvious that the earth is young.

Q, Why do we find soft tissue in 65+ MY old dinosaurs? The tissue should have decomposed by now.

Q, why do we find C14 in fossils, coal, diamonds, gas etc...when it shouldn't be there if it is that old?

Q, why do we find helium in zircon crystals when if the crystals are as old as claimed should have all escaped?

 

[D2wing]

Very Interesting 57. I am surprised at the amount of young earth evidence. I do think that science is strongly skewed by politics as is written history. That is the problem, that there is a massive conspiracy about what is in textbooks and what is allowed to be taught.
However facts like that will be denied by those we are trying to reach as they are brainwashed in my opinion. I have to be careful even here about my opinions, I have been warned so I don't know what I can post. Apparently not the truth.

 

[-57]

Very Interesting 57. I am surprised at the amount of young earth evidence. I do think that science is strongly skewed by politics as is written history. That is the problem, that there is a massive conspiracy about what is in textbooks and what is allowed to be taught.
However facts like that will be denied by those we are trying to reach as they are brainwashed in my opinion. I have to be careful even here about my opinions, I have been warned so I don't know what I can post. Apparently not the truth.

One of the problem is separation of church and state. The simple mentioning of a young earth..which is the truth...violates the separation.
Today to many christians have been indoctrinated into the "religion" of evolutionism...and have never seen the science of the other side. In a lot of cases the churches have failed to educate the youth to what the bible really teaches.
I believe trying to merge the bible with evolutionism is heretical and destroys the doctrine of original sin and the need for Christ Jesus.

The biblical fact is Adam was formed from the dust then Eve from Adams rib....which is far, far, from evolutionism....despite that many christians distort the bible and the truth of special creation.

 

[-57]

I have to be careful even here about my opinions, I have been warned so I don't know what I can post. Apparently not the truth.

I too try to be careful...I was once warned because I put " around the word "christian" in an attempt to hi-lite or draw attention to the word. The moderators told me putting quotes around the word indicated that I was calling that individual a non-christian. My intentions were not what the moderator thought. Despite that I got warned. The irony of it is....they want me to shell out the buck and join...I have no problem with joining, but I think I'll get banned and waste my money.

 

[AJTruth]

Creation, Science God & Evolution

Most people think of the big bang as an explosion in space, scientists use the term to describe the beginning of space, time, matter and energy.

The Bible describes a few key characteristics of the universe that scientists now have the ability to measure.

Scripture also talks about the constancy of the laws of physics, most explicitly stated in Jeremiah 33:25. Genesis 1:1 and Hebrews 11:3 declare that the universe began to exist (thus required a Beginner). Romans 8:18-21 speaks of a pervasive law of decay.

These four characteristics, a singular beginning, cosmic expansion, and constant laws of physics including the law of decay. Define a big bang universe.

Elohim/God = (The Great Creator) Took the necessary materials and the thousand/million/billion? of calculations required.

Psalms 103: 20-21 teaches:
20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that are mighty and excel in strength, created to do his ""commandments"", ""hearkening unto the voice of his word"".

When all was ready. Elohim/God (The Great Creator) By His Spoken Word gave the "Command" """Light Be"""!

And BANG!!! Time, space matter and energy. The physical universe as we know it, "Began".

FIRST CAUSE: INTELLIGENT DESIGN
(Then comes space, time, science & evolution)

At least five biblical writers describe an expanding universe (Job 9:8; Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 40:22; 42:5; 44:24; 45:12; 48:13; 51:13; Jeremiah 10:12; 51:15; and Zechariah 12:1).

The Hebrew verb translated “created” (""bara"") in Genesis 1:1 has as its primary definition: “bringing into existence something new, something that did not exist before.”

The proclamation that God created ("bara" something, never before, brand new) the entirety of the heavens is stated seven times in the Old Testament. (Genesis 1:1; 2:3; 2:4; Psalm 148:5; Isaiah 40:26; 42:5; 45:18).

Hebrews 11:3 states that the universe we can measure and detect was made out of that which we cannot measure or detect.

Also, Isaiah 45:5-22; John 1:3; & Colossians 1:15-17 stipulate that God alone is the agent for the universe’s existence.

Bible begins identifying man's special creation as more then just another animal only 6,000 yrs ago. When God "breathed (BARA something, never before, brand new) a soul/spirit into mans nostrils". Maranatha

 

[-57]

Bible begins identifying man's special creation as more then just another animal only 6,000 yrs ago. When God "breathed (BARA something, never before, brand new) a soul/spirit into mans nostrils". Maranatha

God only breathed into one man. Adam. At that moment Adam became a living being.

 

[StevenMerten]

I fully concede I do not have the time to fully engage your argument. My point is that unless you are an expert - and I mean a real expert - it is exceedingly unlikely that you, an amateur like me, have actually discovered something fundamental that thousands of actual experts have missed.

Possible, of course, but really really unlikely.

Hello Expos4ever,
What is the bible verse where God tells us that He uses children and the humble to humble the the proud of the world. I think we all should be able to have a shot at it.

 

[AJTruth]

Very Interesting 57. I am surprised at the amount of young earth evidence. I do think that science is strongly skewed by politics as is written history. That is the problem, that there is a massive conspiracy about what is in textbooks and what is allowed to be taught.
However facts like that will be denied by those we are trying to reach as they are brainwashed in my opinion. I have to be careful even here about my opinions, I have been warned so I don't know what I can post. Apparently not the truth.

How old is earth? How long did creation take?


God created the Heavens & Earth (big bang) He created man & following mans chronology in the Bible we come up with aprox 6,000 yrs (thats man as a living soul only)

A few thoughts I believe are worth exploring:

The Hebrew word "yom" used in Genesis by Moses translate's into english as "day". "Yom" is used in the KJ Bible over 500 time's. According to the Englishman’s Hebrew Concordance there are over 58 different ways "yom" has been translated in the K. James Bible

"Yom" can refer to a variety of time periods ranging from “forever” (Ps 23:6), “age” (Gen 18:11), “years” (I Kings 1:1), “always” (Deut 5:29), & “season” (Jos 24:7)

From the context of Gen 1 & 2, there are 3 different ways Moses used this word. The word "yom" refers to day as in “daylight” (12 hours) in Gen 1:5, to 24-hour days in Gen 1:14, & to a long period of time (“in the day” referring to all six of the preceding creation days) in Gen 2:4

In Gen 2:4 does the word "day" (yom) refer to a 24 hr period? Clearly no!

So which definition should we give to the other uses of "yom" in Gen 1 & 2?

1) (Gen 1:1-2)
In the beginning God "created" (bara 'baw-raw' to create, shape, form) the heaven & the earth

2) And the "earth was without form", void, & darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters

1st: No mention here as to how much time takes place before day one. When the 1st creative day started is strictly conjecture. It may have been millions/billions of years after Gen 1:1.

2nd: The earth didnt receive it's current system of keeping time, until day 4. The first three days did not include the known seasons of the sun, moon, & stars. So, the 1st 3 days may well have been much longer periods of time

3dr: God worked (CREATED/BARA) for 6 days & then rested. In scripyure day 7 does not include a beginning 7 end like the other days. Heb 4, Ps 95 & Jn 5 tells us this 7th “day” is still taking place. So, day 7 is also, clearly longer then 24 hrs

Today's astrologers & scientist measure the universes creation at almost 14 billions ago & earth at 4 1/2 billion years old. This fits with the Bibles creation account.

Final thought: At the end of the 1000 yr rein of Christ. We see a new heaven & earth

So, at that time. God will begin to CREATE (bara) once again

Things that take place on Day 6 alone:

Day Six, alone with Adam. As we turn to Genesis 2, we find that a considerable interval of time must have intervened between the creation of Adam and the creation of Eve.

The LORD God put Adam in the Garden of Eden. Adam is just a man, not a God. His mission is to cultivate and keep the garden. After that God then gives Adam a major assignment. He was to "classify and name" "every species of animals and birds". The garden must have had hundreds maybe thousands of species of mammal, reptile, insect, and birds.

Gen 2:19-20
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field;

It must have required some years, or, at the very least, a considerable number of months to complete this comprehensive inventoring, interacting and naming of all the birds, beasts, and insects that populated the Garden of Eden.

It is apparent to me that Genesis 1 was never intended to teach six creative 24hr days. When Adam and Eve were both created, lasted a mere twenty-four hours. It would seem to border on sheer irrationality to insist that all of Adam’s experiences in Genesis 2:15-22 could have been crowded into the last hour or two of a literal twenty-four hour day. Maranatha

 

[StevenMerten]

This discussion has helped me see things I did not see regardless of the opinion of the poster. Thanks all.
But I think that pitting the Big Bang against the 6 days of creation, 7 in the OP is wrong. To me they are one in the same.

Hello D2wing,
Do you understand how billions of years of star formation can occur in four days, if God uses Time Dilation? Scientificly confirmed Time Dilation is real and proven. Billions of years can occur at lower velocities as only days are going by at higher velocities. Do you accept science on this? God using Time dilation to create billions of years of star formation while only four days pass on earth is possible scientifically.

 

[expos4ever]

Hello Expos4ever,
What is the bible verse where God tells us that He uses children and the humble to humble the the proud of the world. I think we all should be able to have a shot at it.

Do you really believe this verse can be used to argue that an amateur like you or me is likely to find an obvious error in a physics theory that has been missed by tens of thousands of experts?

This strikes me as "magical" thinking and I am quite confident that although the scriptures do say things along the lines of what you have referred, the writer's intent was certainly not to believe in wildly implausible things - in this case that an amateur has discovered something relatively obvious (remember, you argument could be captured in a paragraph!) that tens of thousands of experts have missed.

 

[expos4ever]

God using Time dilation to create billions of years of star formation while only four days pass on earth is possible scientifically.

Can you cite even one credentialed expert who would agree with this?

 

[SkyWriting]

Creationists are not asking atheist scientists to say that this is the way it happened. Creationists are only asking atheist scientists to confirm that seven days of creation by God is a plausable and acceptable theory.

Scripturally the seven days are much like each other in wording, so dilation is not scriptural. And anything scientific can be reproduced at least in part, so they say. So no.

 

[D2wing]

Ok, I have a headache.

 

[scottyp588]

I don't understand why we can't use proven, peer reviewed and tested scientific data to learn about science and the bible to learn about God.
The common theme that I keep seeing is that some Christians view all scientist as evil conspirators.

 

[D2wing]

Scotty there are real scientists. Then there are those with an agenda. particularly a political agenda. Real science is often suppressed on issues like climate change, evolution, genetics, sexual orientation etc. The people that own the news and textbook companies have an agenda. A liberal agenda. This especially extends to History as well.

 

[Speedwell]

Scotty there are real scientists. Then there are those with an agenda. particularly a political agenda. Real science is often suppressed on issues like climate change, evolution, genetics, sexual orientation etc. The people that own the news and textbook companies have an agenda. A liberal agenda. This especially extends to History as well.

The people who own textbook companies bow to the Texas state textbook standards because Texas is the largest single textbook market. Are you accusing the Texas State Textbook Commission of having a liberal agenda?

 

[D2wing]

I don't know if they do or not. If they graduated from college, there is a good chance they do. But I have no way of knowing any of them.