Earth is Flat

Freodin · May 7, 2020

Radagast said:
I'm not sure what you mean, exactly, but it's offensive enough to put you on ignore.

"The hill you want to die on describes something so important to you that you are willing to fight to the death to accomplish it. Often, the idiom the hill you want to die on is used when describing something that will make or break one’s reputation, or result in either glory or ignominy. The phrase is often used in a question: Is this the hill you want to die on? This question may be considered a warning that taking a certain stance will probably result in defeat of one sort or another. The idiom the hill you want to die on is derived from a military term. Fighting to take the position of a hill from an enemy is nearly impossible and results in mass casualties. One must be sure that the hill is worth the cost of taking it."

An idiom that has been around for decades at least. If you get offended by such things, you really have some issues to deal with.

pgp_protector · May 7, 2020

Freodin said:
"The hill you want to die on describes something so important to you that you are willing to fight to the death to accomplish it. Often, the idiom the hill you want to die on is used when describing something that will make or break one’s reputation, or result in either glory or ignominy. The phrase is often used in a question: Is this the hill you want to die on? This question may be considered a warning that taking a certain stance will probably result in defeat of one sort or another. The idiom the hill you want to die on is derived from a military term. Fighting to take the position of a hill from an enemy is nearly impossible and results in mass casualties. One must be sure that the hill is worth the cost of taking it."

An idiom that has been around for decades at least. If you get offended by such things, you really have some issues to deal with.

Problem is, if they truly put you on ignore, they wouldn't see this.

Also apparently their vision of God is unable to create a universe without a limit in time & space.

Subduction Zone · May 7, 2020

Radagast said:
I'm not sure what you mean, exactly, but it's offensive enough to put you on ignore.

You should not be so quick to take offense. It is a misinterpretation of his post to claim that it is offensive.

pgp_protector · May 7, 2020

Radagast said:
I'm not sure what you mean, exactly, but it's offensive enough to put you on ignore.

Do you often find things that you don't understand offensive?

46AND2 · May 7, 2020

Radagast said:
For us Christians, it makes no difference whether the world is spatially infinite or not.

However, the Bible is pretty clear that the universe was created at a point in time (be that 6,000 or 14,000,000,000 years ago). Denying that is not an option for Christians.

So you think that if it is conclusively shown that the universe was not created at a particular point in time--i.e. part of a bang/crunch cycle, or eternal multiverse, or something--then Christianity would die out virtually overnight (a relatively few science denier holdouts notwithstanding - a la flatearthers)?

prodromos · May 7, 2020

Freodin said:
"The hill you want to die on describes something so important to you that you are willing to fight to the death to accomplish it. Often, the idiom the hill you want to die on is used when describing something that will make or break one’s reputation, or result in either glory or ignominy. The phrase is often used in a question: Is this the hill you want to die on? This question may be considered a warning that taking a certain stance will probably result in defeat of one sort or another. The idiom the hill you want to die on is derived from a military term. Fighting to take the position of a hill from an enemy is nearly impossible and results in mass casualties. One must be sure that the hill is worth the cost of taking it."

An idiom that has been around for decades at least. If you get offended by such things, you really have some issues to deal with.

I don't believe it was the idiom he found offensive, but your comment about "other hills with heaps of dead Christians".

prodromos · May 7, 2020

pgp_protector said:
Also apparently their vision of God is unable to create a universe without a limit in time & space.

Do you believe God can create a rock too heavy for Him to lift?

pgp_protector · May 7, 2020

prodromos said:
Do you believe God can create a rock too heavy for Him to lift?

He did.
There's quite a few boulders that Jesus couldn't lift.

46AND2 · May 7, 2020

prodromos said:
I don't believe it was the idiom he found offensive, but your comment about "other hills with heaps of dead Christians".

That was just an extension of the idiom...continuing with the metaphor.

prodromos · May 7, 2020

pgp_protector said:
He did.
There's quite a few boulders that Jesus couldn't lift.

Where can I read about these? Jesus had complete mastery over creation. He walked on water, He removed the massive energy of a storm with a word. He has full control over the forces between all objects of matter

prodromos · May 7, 2020

46AND2 said:
That was just an extension of the idiom...continuing with the metaphor.

It was an unnecessary extension.

pgp_protector · May 7, 2020

prodromos said:
Where can I read about these? Jesus had complete mastery over creation. He walked on water, He removed the massive energy of a storm with a word. He has full control over the forces between all objects of matter

Jesus himself stated he had limitations.

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

prodromos · May 7, 2020

pgp_protector said:
Jesus himself stated he had limitations.

Over creation? No.

Freodin · May 8, 2020

prodromos said:
I don't believe it was the idiom he found offensive, but your comment about "other hills with heaps of dead Christians".

Which was simply a continuation of the same idiom, referring to the number of topics that Christians did (and some still do) defend "to the death" as "core teaching of faith"... in the face of overwhelming numbers.

And, seriously, if you have a faith where one of the core beliefs is "we are constantly persecuted"... you should not be horrified by such imagery.

Not that I am persecuting Christians, or want to kill them.

Freodin · May 8, 2020

prodromos said:
Where can I read about these? Jesus had complete mastery over creation. He walked on water, He removed the massive energy of a storm with a word. He has full control over the forces between all objects of matter

Jesus "limitations" are only the limitations in the imagination of his followers.
Can Jesus walk on water? Sure! It is written! (Though I dare you really imagine that.)
Can he create an eternal universe? Don't be silly! That contradicts what I believe.

It's not fundamentally different from...
Can God stop the sun in the sky? Sure! It is written!
Can God create an earth that moves around the sun? That's just stupid! It contradicts what I believe.

Radagast · May 8, 2020

46AND2 said:
So you think that if it is conclusively shown that the universe was not created at a particular point in time--i.e. part of a bang/crunch cycle, or eternal multiverse, or something--then Christianity would die out virtually overnight

I'm pretty sure that that will never be "conclusively shown." I'm not even sure what "conclusively showing" that would mean.

Certainly, when Aristotle and Fred Hoyle said that the world is eternal, we Christians said "no, it isn't." We did not "virtually die out overnight."

I'm also pretty sure that we were right and Aristotle and Fred Hoyle were wrong. (Fred Hoyle was in fact the anti-Christian Richard Dawkins of his day, but has been airbrushed out of history precisely because he was so wrong).

46AND2 · May 8, 2020

Radagast said:
I'm pretty sure that that will never be "conclusively shown."

Certainly, when Aristotle and Fred Hoyle said that the world is eternal, we Christians said "no, it isn't."

I'm also pretty sure that we were right and Aristotle and Fred Hoyle were wrong.

Which doesn't really answer the question.

I'm trying to clarify, but it SEEMS like what you were saying is that if such a thing were discovered, it would falsify Christianity, just as surely as a discovery of Jesus' body/remains. Is that a fair statement? It's one of your core, indisputable creeds?

To be clear, this isn't a loaded question...I don't/won't claim to have that ace up my sleeve.

Radagast · May 8, 2020

46AND2 said:
I'm trying to clarify, but it SEEMS like what you were saying is that if such a thing were discovered, it would falsify Christianity, just as surely as a discovery of Jesus' body/remains. Is that a fair statement? It's one of your core, indisputable creeds?

Yes. Creation is one of our core, indisputable tenets. It is integral to Christian theology.

To quote the Nicene Creed, "We believe in ... ONE Lord Jesus Christ ... by whom all things were made ..." (Hebrews 1:1-2; John 1:1-18).

But I'm also asserting that (1) the idea of a universe existing eternally in the past is false; (2) that such an idea cannot be proved by any means that I can imagine; (3) that mere claims for such an idea would not cause Christianity to disappear; and (4) that Christianity has dealt with such claims twice already.

46AND2 · May 8, 2020

Radagast said:
Yes. Creation is one of our core, indisputable tenets. It is integral to Christian theology.

To quote the Nicene Creed, "We believe in ... ONE Lord Jesus Christ ... by whom all things were made ..." (Hebrews 1:1-2; John 1:1-18).

But I'm also asserting that (1) the idea of a universe existing eternally in the past is false; (2) that such an idea cannot be proved by any means that I can imagine; (3) that mere claims for such an idea would not cause Christianity to disappear; and (4) that Christianity has dealt with such claims twice already.

1. This is the one I want to explore, but I'll come back to it.

2. Ok. This is neither here nor there. There are many things you could be convinced of for which you have not yet been able to imagine how. I deal with this every successive math class I take...

3. Agreed.

4. Not just Christianity. Everyone. And it has, at best, been hypothesized, and at worst rejected outright. Regardless of religion.

Going back to #1...

I'm curious about the hypothetical. Let's say your first assertion is wrong. And it is demonstrated to be so to a similar degree as is the idea of a flat earth. Again, hypothetically speaking.

I'm not so much interested with how you would receive that knowledge, but how you think the Christian populace would respond? Because this is where I think we disagree. I think you believe that such a revelation would be devastating for the Christian community, whereas I think it would be more of a speed bump.

As an aside, every time I hear about the Nicene creed, this song pops in my head:

Radagast · May 8, 2020

46AND2 said:
1. This is the one I want to explore, but I'll come back to it.

I was expressing an opinion. There is a proposition that I believe to be false.

46AND2 said:
2. Ok. This is neither here nor there. There are many things you could be convinced of for which you have not yet been able to imagine how.

Not really. I have a pretty clear idea of the kind of things that would convince me of a proposition. For example, you could convince me of any mathematical proposition at all, if you gave me a proof that I was able to verify.

46AND2 said:
4. Not just Christianity. Everyone. And it has, at best, been hypothesized, and at worst rejected outright. Regardless of religion.

You miss my point. During the mid-13th Century (neo-Aristotelians) and the mid-20th Century (steady-staters), "scientists" were saying that the physical universe had existed for an infinite period of time, and the Christians were saying "no" (the Muslims too, come to think of it).

I think we were right both times.

46AND2 said:
Because this is where I think we disagree. I think you believe that such a revelation would be devastating for the Christian community, whereas I think it would be more of a speed bump.

You're saying that you understand Christians better than I do. With respect, no, you don't.

Earth is Flat

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