Early Church

Chesterton

Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding
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Well, maybe that's true of the particular Protestants you have chosen to debate with, but it doesn't mean that there are no good arguments other Protestants can refer you to which any honest, thinking person would have to acknowledge.

Patience is a virtue. I've heard some arguments, but I'm still waiting for the good one. ;)

I know Catholics who think that a rust stain on a concrete bridge is the Virgin Mary and others who insist that we become angels upon death, but I don't say that this is what all Catholics are like or that this sums up everything that can be said on the subject.

I know Protestants who think that if they give money to Robertson's "700 Club" God will quickly make them wealthy for doing it. But I don't think all Protestants think that.

I've read a thousand ill-informed and unfactual arguments presented on CF, all right. And the subject is so big that to start into it again is asking a lot, but I'll summarize.

The church of Christ is a movement, not a club. To think of it as a gated community that allows some in and considers others to be "outsiders" is not in accordance with Jesus' teachings. His church is his people, not any legal institution. If you are thinking of authenticity along linear lines, there are several churches that began before there was a church in Rome, before Peter or Paul got there. And if you were to say that the Roman Catholic Church is older than the Orthodox Eastern Churches, which those "traditionalists" do, history is totally unsympathetic to that notion. If you wanted to say that the RCC existed from Apostolic times, consider that no one knew of a Pope or even the concept of a Pope until several centuries after Christ. Even the famous Matt 16:18 that is interpreted incorrectly in order to support a claim of Papal Supremacy was not used by the Roman church or Bishops until the 4th century when it was decided that it could be employed to support the then-growing claims of the Roman bishop to a universal jurisdiction never known in the church before. The Roman Church is the one Christian denomination that has accounted for more schisms and more people involved in such than any other (speaking of the ideal of one church). It evolved, like most institutions with many of its most characteristic doctrines not being known until the Middle Ages (Purgatory, Transubstantiation, Seven Sacraments, etc.). This is not the church Christ founded, not just like that. It is part of it, of course, but only part, and it's a part that continued to add to the Apostolic faith over the centuries. Some changes are not especially troubling, but along with them came corrupt practices, putting human decisions alongside revelation as equal authorities, placing the clergy between God and Man, refusing the Bible to ordinary Christians, selling indulgences and fake relics, and much more that was neither proper nor Apostolic. In time, Catholics demanded reform and a return to the standards of the Early Church. They were driven out of the Western church structure, of course, because the institutional church declined to correct itself. Ironically, the RCC has recently adopted most of the reforms that the Protestant Reformers of the 16th century asked for and were persecuated for requesting!

And now for what makes for the true church....Is it better for everyone to be united under a church organization that does wrong OR is it better to take a stand against that wrong, even if the powers that be kick you out of their little ecclesiastical corner of the world? IMO holding to the true FAITH is what Christ intended, not being in one organization even though it has gone away from that faith.

I appreciate that you put effort into your response, and I thank you, but in all honesty, I asked for "evidence" about the "Early Church", and you gave me a good deal of "opinion" about the [West European] "Medieval Church".


I wish you would try to be serious. Saying things like "That is the only position you can take and be a Protestant" is just absent any logic, and you know it. Patristics are taught in Protestant seminaries just as at St. Vlad's or other Orthodox ones--which proves your confident statement to be incorrect on its face, so why insist upon saying it?

(How come you have such a hard time taking me seriously? :)) I'm as serious as Cardinal Newman, who said "To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant". You simply cannot study the Early Church and come to the conclusion that there was no Early Church, along with all its accompanying sacraments, ecclesiology, supernatural doctrines, etc.

But of course Protestantism arose from within the Western Church and so has no particular investment in Eastern Orthodoxy, therefore it is necessary to explain how it, Protestantism, is not a departure from the historic church but only a corrective to the corrupted Western institutional church of the late Middle Ages. I readily agree that Orthodoxy has a stronger claim on antiquity than the Roman Church does, but of course its faulty judgments about Protestantism run parallel to those of Rome.

I don't speak on behalf of Orthodox Christianity. Any faulty judgments are mine alone, but I try not to be faulty. :)

What is the "Traditionalist position"? If it is the position of the Roman Church on ecclesiology, then your comment is risible.

No, it's not exactly the current position of the Roman Church.

That is false. I care about what the ECFs wrote but they were not free from error and I do not value them all equally.

I think they call that "cherry-picking".
 
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MamaZ

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Reading from the scriptures is not confessing in the same manner as the early church. I have quite a bit of doubt that when you say you confess your sins to each other, you aren't doing it in the same manner as the early church. Actually, with the propensity for protestant churches to shun and run out on a rail anyone who commits some scandalous sin, if it were done in the manner of the early church you'd have nothing but empty buildings left.
Are we speaking of going to a priest? I don't see that practice in the scriptures of going to a priest and confessing sin and having him absolve me.. I do how ever confess sins to my brothers and sisters in the Lord and we pray for each other. But my main course of confessing my sin is to my Father for it is He that I have sinned against. And with Him I know that I am forgiven and not only forgiven cleansed for unrighteousness. Continual confessing to my Father is continued cleansing..
 
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Montalban

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Are we speaking of going to a priest? I don't see that practice in the scriptures of going to a priest and confessing sin and having him absolve me.. I do how ever confess sins to my brothers and sisters in the Lord and we pray for each other. But my main course of confessing my sin is to my Father for it is He that I have sinned against. And with Him I know that I am forgiven and not only forgiven cleansed for unrighteousness. Continual confessing to my Father is continued cleansing..

In Orthodoxy we confess BEFORE the priest, not to the priest. He's a witness.

God forgives us

I don't know why if you're prepared to go to a friend to confess and seeking forgiveness from him what you'd have against going before a priest and confessing and seeking forgiveness from God.
 
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MamaZ

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In Orthodoxy we confess BEFORE the priest, not to the priest. He's a witness.

God forgives us

I don't know why if you're prepared to go to a friend to confess and seeking forgiveness from him what you'd have against going before a priest and confessing and seeking forgiveness from God.
I don't know what you mean by going to a friend to confess and seeking forgiveness from him.. If I am seeking forgiveness from God I go directly to Him.
 
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Montalban

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I don't know what you mean by going to a friend to confess and seeking forgiveness from him.. If I am seeking forgiveness from God I go directly to Him.

Then where do your friends fit in?

Also, are you going to answer Intercisus anytime soon? Just curious.
 
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Blackknight

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I think they call that "cherry-picking".

The ECFs are very good writers and we can learn a lot from what they say but we also know how to separate the wheat from the chaff.

We're all guilty of cherry picking, really.
 
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MamaZ

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Then where do your friends fit in?

Also, are you going to answer Intercisus anytime soon? Just curious.
I believe I did didn't I? I will go back and check.. When we confess our sins to one another we do not seek forgiveness from them. We seek agreeing in prayer and also through this we have an accountablity partner. This is the case with me anyway.. We know that is this life we will have trouble but we also no we do not fear for He is with us.. It is walking hand in hand with each other as we travel on Gods narrow path..
 
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MamaZ

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Same old mantra but still no answer and not one moment of thought en to the actual question at hand. If you or folks you know are spirit-inspired and gifted with prophecy why don't you canonize your writings? Simply put, because being inspired is only one reason for canonization. It takes the church you reject, in council, to canonize any book of the bible.
Why would we canonize our writings? I guess it really depends on what church you are referring to that you say I reject. Well and I am sure that God makes sure His word is protected and sent out so that we may know the truth and the truth shall set us free. Councils may agree or disagree as we see has happened.. But still we have the assured word of God in written form to be a light unto our path.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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I believe I did didn't I? I will go back and check.. When we confess our sins to one another we do not seek forgiveness from them. We seek agreeing in prayer and also through this we have an accountablity partner. This is the case with me anyway.. We know that is this life we will have trouble but we also no we do not fear for He is with us.. It is walking hand in hand with each other as we travel on Gods narrow path..

That's great! I'm so glad to see that you are a confessing Christian! It is one of the "keys" spoken of in scripture.

I would like to add that you are not asking for absolution, which is the other part of the confession cycle. This is something that the clergy has been given as a gift to the people... "the authority" to absolve through the power of prayer to Christ!

Forgive me...
 
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MamaZ

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That's great! I'm so glad to see that you are a confessing Christian! It is one of the "keys" spoken of in scripture.

I would like to add that you are not asking for absolution, which is the other part of the confession cycle. This is something that the clergy has been given as a gift to the people... "the authority" to absolve through the power of prayer to Christ!

Forgive me...
Well yes I am a confessing Christian. :) But I know that when I go to God and ask for forgiveness He forgives me.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Well yes I am a confessing Christian. :) But I know that when I go to God and ask for forgiveness He forgives me.


Do you not believe... "the clergy has been given as a gift to the people... "the authority" to absolve through the power of prayer to Christ!" ???

What was the purpose of this gift? Why would we ignore a gift?

Forgive me...
 
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MamaZ

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Do you not believe... "the clergy has been given as a gift to the people... "the authority" to absolve through the power of prayer to Christ!" ???

What was the purpose of this gift? Why would we ignore a gift?

Forgive me...
I do not believe that a man can obsolve any other man of their sin.. Christ did that at the Cross.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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I do not believe that a man can obsolve any other man of their sin.. Christ did that at the Cross.

So... you don't believe that authority was given?

And what of this then....

Jhn 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.

Forgive me...
 
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IreneAdler

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I don't believe that's quite what that means, no. I think that's about sharing because part of recovery from anything of the heart is sharing... but the person who you're talking to has NADA to do with forgiveness or not. It's a heart thing. Talking to others about your issues is a health thing. I truely believe God addresses our needs as human beings (such as the kosher and kasher laws) and our spiritual needs as well, but they're not always intertwined in outcome meaning.
 
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Tangible

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Simply from a personal standpoint, I'd go through just about anything to be in church to hear my minister speak to me these words of absolution:

"In the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ, I forgive you all your sins
in the name of the Father and of the + Son and of the Holy Spirit."
 
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IreneAdler

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Doesn't make your opinion any more valid in what is and isn't christian either. Questioning someone's christianity is a violation of the rules if I understand correctly. You might want to consider how you say things in the future Orthodoxy.
 
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