Well, maybe that's true of the particular Protestants you have chosen to debate with, but it doesn't mean that there are no good arguments other Protestants can refer you to which any honest, thinking person would have to acknowledge.
Patience is a virtue. I've heard some arguments, but I'm still waiting for the good one.
I know Catholics who think that a rust stain on a concrete bridge is the Virgin Mary and others who insist that we become angels upon death, but I don't say that this is what all Catholics are like or that this sums up everything that can be said on the subject.
I know Protestants who think that if they give money to Robertson's "700 Club" God will quickly make them wealthy for doing it. But I don't think all Protestants think that.
I've read a thousand ill-informed and unfactual arguments presented on CF, all right. And the subject is so big that to start into it again is asking a lot, but I'll summarize.
The church of Christ is a movement, not a club. To think of it as a gated community that allows some in and considers others to be "outsiders" is not in accordance with Jesus' teachings. His church is his people, not any legal institution. If you are thinking of authenticity along linear lines, there are several churches that began before there was a church in Rome, before Peter or Paul got there. And if you were to say that the Roman Catholic Church is older than the Orthodox Eastern Churches, which those "traditionalists" do, history is totally unsympathetic to that notion. If you wanted to say that the RCC existed from Apostolic times, consider that no one knew of a Pope or even the concept of a Pope until several centuries after Christ. Even the famous Matt 16:18 that is interpreted incorrectly in order to support a claim of Papal Supremacy was not used by the Roman church or Bishops until the 4th century when it was decided that it could be employed to support the then-growing claims of the Roman bishop to a universal jurisdiction never known in the church before. The Roman Church is the one Christian denomination that has accounted for more schisms and more people involved in such than any other (speaking of the ideal of one church). It evolved, like most institutions with many of its most characteristic doctrines not being known until the Middle Ages (Purgatory, Transubstantiation, Seven Sacraments, etc.). This is not the church Christ founded, not just like that. It is part of it, of course, but only part, and it's a part that continued to add to the Apostolic faith over the centuries. Some changes are not especially troubling, but along with them came corrupt practices, putting human decisions alongside revelation as equal authorities, placing the clergy between God and Man, refusing the Bible to ordinary Christians, selling indulgences and fake relics, and much more that was neither proper nor Apostolic. In time, Catholics demanded reform and a return to the standards of the Early Church. They were driven out of the Western church structure, of course, because the institutional church declined to correct itself. Ironically, the RCC has recently adopted most of the reforms that the Protestant Reformers of the 16th century asked for and were persecuated for requesting!
And now for what makes for the true church....Is it better for everyone to be united under a church organization that does wrong OR is it better to take a stand against that wrong, even if the powers that be kick you out of their little ecclesiastical corner of the world? IMO holding to the true FAITH is what Christ intended, not being in one organization even though it has gone away from that faith.
I appreciate that you put effort into your response, and I thank you, but in all honesty, I asked for "evidence" about the "Early Church", and you gave me a good deal of "opinion" about the [West European] "Medieval Church".
I wish you would try to be serious. Saying things like "That is the only position you can take and be a Protestant" is just absent any logic, and you know it. Patristics are taught in Protestant seminaries just as at St. Vlad's or other Orthodox ones--which proves your confident statement to be incorrect on its face, so why insist upon saying it?
(How come you have such a hard time taking me seriously? ) I'm as serious as Cardinal Newman, who said "To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant". You simply cannot study the Early Church and come to the conclusion that there was no Early Church, along with all its accompanying sacraments, ecclesiology, supernatural doctrines, etc.
But of course Protestantism arose from within the Western Church and so has no particular investment in Eastern Orthodoxy, therefore it is necessary to explain how it, Protestantism, is not a departure from the historic church but only a corrective to the corrupted Western institutional church of the late Middle Ages. I readily agree that Orthodoxy has a stronger claim on antiquity than the Roman Church does, but of course its faulty judgments about Protestantism run parallel to those of Rome.
I don't speak on behalf of Orthodox Christianity. Any faulty judgments are mine alone, but I try not to be faulty.
What is the "Traditionalist position"? If it is the position of the Roman Church on ecclesiology, then your comment is risible.
No, it's not exactly the current position of the Roman Church.
That is false. I care about what the ECFs wrote but they were not free from error and I do not value them all equally.
I think they call that "cherry-picking".
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