Earlier Ice Ages?

[AV1611VET]

Using their principle that "the present is the key to the past," evolutionists claim that there is evidence for earlier ice ages. However, supposed similiarities between the rocks in those geological systems and the special features produced in the Ice Age are not consistent.

Today, glaciers grind up the rock they travel over, creating deposits of fine and coarse material mixed together. This unsorted material is known as till, or tillite when it becomes bound together to form a rock unit. The grinding action of rocks embedded in the glacier also scores parallel grooves in the bedrock the glacier slides over - these grooves are called striations. When some melting occurs in summer, the glacier releases rock "flour" which is washed into glacial lakes and settles to form fine and coarse alternating layers known as varves. Sometimes a piece of ice will break off the glacier or ice sheet and float into such a glacial lake, dropping embedded boulders as it melts. These "dropstones" fall into the fine sediments (varves) on the lake floor, so that stones are sometimes found in the varves.

Geologists have claimed that these features have been found in ancient rock layers, proving that there had been previous ice ages over geologic time. Many lines of evidence now indicate that the observations have been misinterpreted:

• The "tillites" of lower rock layers are small in area, commonly thick, and probably all of marine origin, whereas those of modern glaciers are relative large in area, thin and continental.
• There are limestones and dolomites frequently associated with these "tillites" - carbonates which form today in warm water, not cold.
• The largest boulders in the ancient "tillites" are much smaller than the larger boulders being deposited by glacial action today.
• Underwater mass flows can produce tillite-like deposits, as well as striated bedrock and striated stones in the "tillite." Such mass flows would be expected during Noah's flood.
• Turbidity currents can deposit varve-like laminated sediments very quickly. These sediments are more accurately called rhythmites. A varve is defined as a rhythmite deposited in one year. Lambert and Hsu have presented evidence from a Swiss lake that such varve-like rhythmites form rapidly by catastrophic, turbid water underflows.

From the Answers Book, by Ken Ham, Jonathan Sarfati, Carl Wieland, pp. 199-201.

 

[TheBear]

evolutionists claim that there is evidence for earlier ice ages.

Biologists, archaeologists, paleontologists and geologists seem to agree.

 

[CabVet]

Do you know what a sea level record is?

What about foraminifera record? Ice core record?

Did you know that they all agree with one another and with the fact that there were hundreds of ice ages before the last one?

 

[Elendur]

For those interested:
The High Coast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just for fun (that's where I come from )

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Using their principle that "the present is the key to the past," evolutionists claim that there is evidence for earlier ice ages. However, supposed similiarities between the rocks in those geological systems and the special features produced in the Ice Age are not consistent.

Today, glaciers grind up the rock they travel over, creating deposits of fine and coarse material mixed together. This unsorted material is known as till, or tillite when it becomes bound together to form a rock unit. The grinding action of rocks embedded in the glacier also scores parallel grooves in the bedrock the glacier slides over - these grooves are called striations. When some melting occurs in summer, the glacier releases rock "flour" which is washed into glacial lakes and settles to form fine and coarse alternating layers known as varves. Sometimes a piece of ice will break off the glacier or ice sheet and float into such a glacial lake, dropping embedded boulders as it melts. These "dropstones" fall into the fine sediments (varves) on the lake floor, so that stones are sometimes found in the varves.

Geologists have claimed that these features have been found in ancient rock layers, proving that there had been previous ice ages over geologic time. Many lines of evidence now indicate that the observations have been misinterpreted:

• The "tillites" of lower rock layers are small in area, commonly thick, and probably all of marine origin, whereas those of modern glaciers are relative large in area, thin and continental.
• There are limestones and dolomites frequently associated with these "tillites" - carbonates which form today in warm water, not cold.
• The largest boulders in the ancient "tillites" are much smaller than the larger boulders being deposited by glacial action today.
• Underwater mass flows can produce tillite-like deposits, as well as striated bedrock and striated stones in the "tillite." Such mass flows would be expected during Noah's flood.
• Turbidity currents can deposit varve-like laminated sediments very quickly. These sediments are more accurately called rhythmites. A varve is defined as a rhythmite deposited in one year. Lambert and Hsu have presented evidence from a Swiss lake that such varve-like rhythmites form rapidly by catastrophic, turbid water underflows.

From the Answers Book, by Ken Ham, Jonathan Sarfati, Carl Wieland, pp. 199-201.

I would be interested in seeing specific references for these. As presented, they're just a bunch of empty statements.

1. The reason why they're different is right in the statement. Thin, widespread deposits are easily eroded, so ancient deposits would only be preserved where they were locally thick or were buried quickly. This is basic common sense.

2. Citation? In what manner are these limestones and dolomites associated with the tillites? Are they clasts within them? Because I see no problem with that.

3. Citation? It certainly would be unusual if all ancient tillites had smaller clasts, but it's not necessarily unexplainable, let alone substantiated.

4. Meaningless statement.

5. Lambert and Hsu is a favorite quote-mine for creationists. They ignore the fact that the paper clearly states that the catastrophically-created rhythmites can be easily distinguished from varves. If you're curious about the details, I'll direct you to this site: Creation Evolution - Non-Varves of Lake Walensee and the Authentic Varves of Lake Zurich: Oard (1997) Gets Caught Telling Only Part of the Truth about Lambert and Hsü (1979) 

 

[Split Rock]

5. Lambert and Hsu is a favorite quote-mine for creationists. They ignore the fact that the paper clearly states that the catastrophically-created rhythmites can be easily distinguished from varves. If you're curious about the details, I'll direct you to this site: Creation Evolution - Non-Varves of Lake Walensee and the Authentic Varves of Lake Zurich: Oard (1997) Gets Caught Telling Only Part of the Truth about Lambert and Hsü (1979) 

Another example of the deceit and misleading statements we have come to expect from professional creationists.

 

[Orogeny]

[*]The "tillites" of lower rock layers are small in area, commonly thick, and probably all of marine origin, whereas those of modern glaciers are relative large in area, thin and continental.

Dealt with by RIMH.

[*]There are limestones and dolomites frequently associated with these "tillites" - carbonates which form today in warm water, not cold.

First off, 'carbonates form in warm water, not cold' is patently false. Carbonates form much faster in warm water, but cool and cold water carbonates are not uncommon (see here, here, here, & here).

Now then, let's talk about carbonates associated with tillite. We call them 'cap carbonates', because they are typically found just above the tillite, although the two lithologies are occasionally found intercalated with each other. Cap carbonates are the result of relatively simple geochemistry: carbonate (CO3) is more soluble in cold water than it is in warm water (solubility chart here; conveniently, this chart shows both CaCO3 ['limestone' aka calcite] and MgOH2, with Mg being the substitute cation that converts calcite to dolomite). The global cooling that results in ice ages logically reduces the temperature of the oceans. As ocean temperatures drop, the ocean water can accommodate more dissolved carbonate, as shown by the graph. So during an ice age, the oceans become saturated with respect to carbonate. When the ice age breaks, ocean temperatures increase. As this happens, carbonate solubility decreases, resulting in supersaturation of the carbonate which causes precipitation of calcite and dolomite. Cap carbonates are the record of this simple process, and can be quite impressive: I've observed Precambrian cap carbonates that were composed of large, pure white ooids. Fantastic!

Moreover, cap carbonates occur as relatively thin intervals in distinctly siliciclastic sequences. Were the tillites actually subaqueous debris flow deposits, there would be no process by which carbonates should be deposited within that succession. We also see carbon isotope inversions and sedimentary features associated with the cap carbonates that indicate flourishing microbial communities, just what we would expect were the oceans recovering from a cold spell and features that are not adequately explained via the 'debris flow' argument.

[*]The largest boulders in the ancient "tillites" are much smaller than the larger boulders being deposited by glacial action today.

I've seen this stated before, requested a comparison and always been left hanging. End that streak.

[*]Underwater mass flows can produce tillite-like deposits, as well as striated bedrock and striated stones in the "tillite." Such mass flows would be expected during Noah's flood.

See above.

[*]Turbidity currents can deposit varve-like laminated sediments very quickly. These sediments are more accurately called rhythmites. A varve is defined as a rhythmite deposited in one year. Lambert and Hsu have presented evidence from a Swiss lake that such varve-like rhythmites form rapidly by catastrophic, turbid water underflows.

Addressed thoroughly by RIMH.