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Avniel · Oct 1, 2014

I'm making this thread because no one really gave me an in depth response to my logic.

I would like to give a little of my personal information. I grew up witnessing my father being physically abused by my mother. She would hit him, talk down to him and just in general disrespect him. My father would punish me when he knew I didn't do anything and his answer always was "some must suffer for the good of others." I viewed my father as a weak spineless man and I wanted so badly for him to just hit her back. I used to think my father was a nerdy punk until I got older and heard some stories about him from his younger years and he was a scrapper. The fact my mother used to hit my father and abuse him made me not have too much respect for him as a man. He allowed himself to be beat and stood there and took it like some punk with no heart. Win, loose or draw respect of my personal space is a principle I stand on. The craziest part is if my father grabbed her wrist or even dodge a shot she was the victim. She was always the person that was wronged. I remember my father and brother almost fought because my mother went to slap hard my father leaned back and escaped her strike. She tried to hit him with such force she spun around and fell. She swore my father threw her on the ground and when I told her what happened I was lying.

This has pretty much been my experience for the most part. What I typically see is two types of men(even though I admit there are 3). 1 the man that will never hit a woman, a man that will hit anybody that hits them first. I typically see women hitting men and walking away and I typically loose respect for the men.

To me it's like not accepting reality of what you're being told. When a woman hits you she's saying I want you dead. My life is valuable

ValleyGal · Oct 1, 2014

Avniel, I am curious about the culture (of origin) as well as the influence of American feminism in that culture. Is it similar to the US/Canada? What was the culture like pre-feminism - was it a patriarchal society, matriarchal, etc? Is your dad's response typical of men in his culture and in his generation?

DZoolander · Oct 1, 2014

I've gotta admit - I've got the whole "don't hit a woman" thing pretty deeply engrained into me. The only women I could ever see myself hitting would be either where:

a) they were threatening me and sexual dimorphism wasn't an issue (meaning - a really big woman that was of equal physical stature to me)
b) they had a weapon

I, however, also believe that once someone shows that kind of disrespect, you ought not ever give them the opportunity to do it again. If I were your dad, your mom would've been out on the curb forthwith. Hasta La Vista - have a nice life.

...and I would've meant it.

DZoolander · Oct 1, 2014

or c) if they were threatening my wife/children of course.

PreachersWife2004 · Oct 1, 2014

There's a difference between having self control and being a milquetoast.

Your dad, it seems, had self control.

Avniel · Oct 1, 2014

ValleyGal said:
Avniel, I am curious about the culture (of origin) as well as the influence of American feminism in that culture. Is it similar to the US/Canada? What was the culture like pre-feminism - was it a patriarchal society, matriarchal, etc? Is your dad's response typical of men in his culture and in his generation?

The culture of origin for my father I would say is basically Jamaican. He was born and raised in Jamaica and when he left he lived with and around Jamaicans. A majority of his life, outside of typical family, most of his dealings were with Jamaicans. However his reaction was not a typical Jamaican reaction. In Jamaica if a woman hits a man, if anyone hits a man it's pretty much a fight. It can get pretty extreme Jamaica is a very violent place like my aunt was telling me a story about a woman that stole from a Rasta man and he chopped her arm off. There are stories about women stealing from Dons of the community and they get the same response. Homosexual women can't walk through the same community that homosexual men can't in Jamaica they are all sodomites to them. When it comes to right and wrong there really isn't a gender line or a one is worst then the other. So what my father did was the total opposite of what his culture dictated.

My mother is totally americanized. Her mother was 16 when she got pregnant and it was by the children's father she babysat for. My grandmother later got married to another man however the marriage was never legal because he already had another family. Both of these men were Jamaican and my mother and grandmother have a hatred for men and particularly Jamaican men. My mother does not even cook Jamaican food or speak with an accent at all. She hates Jamaicans and men in general to be honest. Not to mention they became heavily involved in the COGIC church and became even more americanized. She was picked on because she did not have a father and began to hate black people in general. She was later assaulted or so she says and that made her in my mind hate men even more.

Avniel · Oct 1, 2014

PreachersWife2004 said:
There's a difference between having self control and being a milquetoast.

Your dad, it seems, had self control.

Self control is being mad and still showing respect and communicating at a proper tone and with appropriate language.

Milquetoast is allowing someone to beat you in your face and not defending yourself.

Self control is being able to say whatever you want and that person being calm.

Milquetoast is someone being able to hit you for whatever reason and all you do is complain and moan. Then after you get beat up you hide from your mother-in-law because your wife is blaming you for her craziness.

Autumnleaf · Oct 1, 2014

If a man hits a woman he opens himself up to all kinds of legal trouble regardless who hit first. Better a man walk away and keep walking without looking back, if a woman chooses to hit him.

When I was in the Army Guard a big young guy got into an argument with a bigger older guy about hitting women. The young guy said never and the bigger old guy said sometimes they have it coming. They were both drunk and I got between them to settle them down. I think the older guy was right, but if the cops get called right isn't always what matters.

seeingeyes · Oct 2, 2014

I also have trouble respecting a man (or a woman for that matter) who will not say "no". The hitting is just an extreme form of that.

mkgal1 · Oct 2, 2014

Avniel....you would have preferred a childhood where your mom threw the punches and your dad "put her in her place" with a K.O.? Is that what you're saying.....and you think that would maybe put a stop to all that?

Avniel · Oct 3, 2014

seeingeyes said:
I also have trouble respecting a man (or a woman for that matter) who will not say "no". The hitting is just an extreme form of that.

Exactly it's not about winning a fight it's about having enough respect for yourself to not allow another person to beat on you. I hate to see someone get bullied and sometimes I can't help but to feel disgusted in the victims lack of courage or some sort of backbone.

Avniel · Oct 3, 2014

mkgal1 said:
Avniel....you would have preferred a childhood where your mom threw the punches and your dad "put her in her place" with a K.O.? Is that what you're saying.....and you think that would maybe put a stop to all that?

I would have preferred that my mother had enough common sense to keep her hands to herself. However the reality is she didn't I would have liked to see my father stand up to her and hit her back and get her off him. If she happened to get knocked out because she put her hands on him then that's her fault.

I do think that if he would have hit her back she wouldn't have hit him anymore. If she knew that the possibility of her throwing a fist would result in her getting hit I doubt she would hit him again.

I grew watching my father get hit for things like looking at other women, talking to other women and even flirting with other women. What I saw was a man that was such a punk he allowed his wife and her mother to intimidate him so much that he would keep his eyes down in church, he wouldn't make eye contact with the waitress.......when we went out his head would remain down................and he would still get it for that. This man would even beat his own children so that his wife wouldn't beat him.

Growing up I hated him way more then I hated her. He was a coward and I hated going places with him it was an embarrassment. This big Jamaican educated man that has lived in one of the worst cities in the world, allowed a woman to beat him to the point he won't look up when he's outside. When I fell in love and again after I got married I could see how it's possible to be in that situation. I had more sympathy for him but still me and my wife and I don't go throw that. I still don't respect and sometimes he tries to give me advice and I can't take it because I view him as weak.

Inkachu · Oct 3, 2014

While I think it's noble to teach the whole "never hit girls/women" chivalry, I think we need to include a little common sense with that. The point is that it's never OK to abuse a woman. But if a woman is attacking you, then by gosh, knock her out. The idea that it's somehow acceptable for a woman to beat on a man simply because of their genders is ridiculous. To sum it up: do not abuse women, but by all means, protect yourself with force if you have to.

Avniel · Oct 3, 2014

I think that's the problem if a woman attacks a man or if a man attacks a man the end result for the aggressor in my mind morally should be the same. Of course due to culture it isn't a reality. You have a basic human right to defend yourself to the best of your ability.

Avniel · Oct 3, 2014

I thinks it gives women the ability to hit men. When my parents were home my brother wouldn't beat me up, 6'5 275 used to be close to 4, when I got on his nerves but when they weren't home anyone that has a sibling close to two years older knows what happened when mom and daddy weren't there. I think when we take away the consequence for the action we encourage behavior. If my mother, who is 5'4 knew my father 6'2 300 something pounds, knew my father would defend himself to the best of his ability and it would be society approved and recorded......would she have hit my father? Does the way our society view these instances where women hit men and get hit back encourage women to be domestically violent? If we villianized the violent women as much as we do men will we have this problem in society?

I believe children and people deserve to be in a relationship where everybody keeps their hands to themselves.

mkgal1 · Oct 3, 2014

Avniel said:
I believe children and people deserve to be in a relationship where everybody keeps their hands to themselves.

This I agree with.....

I'll just go ahead and state the obvious......love doesn't include violence. People need to learn to use their words to communicate (lovingly)....and the other needs to have eager "ears to hear".

mkgal1 · Oct 3, 2014

Avniel said:
I thinks it gives women the ability to hit men. When my parents were home my brother wouldn't beat me up, 6'5 275 used to be close to 4, when I got on his nerves but when they weren't home anyone that has a sibling close to two years older knows what happened when mom and daddy weren't there. I think when we take away the consequence for the action we encourage behavior. If my mother, who is 5'4 knew my father 6'2 300 something pounds, knew my father would defend himself to the best of his ability and it would be society approved and recorded......would she have hit my father? Does the way our society view these instances where women hit men and get hit back encourage women to be domestically violent? If we villianized the violent women as much as we do men will we have this problem in society?

No one should tolerate another person (especially one who is supposed to be loving them) using violence against them.

What you're posting about, though, that's not "in defense". When there's a size/strength/mobility difference--that is something that should be considered. Not even speaking of husband and wife (because, to be honest, that just isn't something I want to imagine).....two men of comparative size fighting in a bar is one thing.....an able-bodied man strong-arm robbing a quadriplegic in a wheel chair is a whole other thing (for an example).

Why not the have the consequence be something besides more violence? Villianizing people does no good......that doesn't bring about change. Attitudes need to be adjusted (IMO).....and people (especially boys/men) need to be allowed (and invited) to express themselves in other ways besides anger/violence (and that needs to be accepted). I heard on the radio yesterday---"we are expecting our males to only live as part of their selves" (and the "emotional" part is to be shut down---unless it's anger). That is expecting you all to be less than fully human. And that's not right...

Hetta · Oct 3, 2014

Inkachu said:
While I think it's noble to teach the whole "never hit girls/women" chivalry, I think we need to include a little common sense with that. The point is that it's never OK to abuse a woman. But if a woman is attacking you, then by gosh, knock her out. The idea that it's somehow acceptable for a woman to beat on a man simply because of their genders is ridiculous. To sum it up: do not abuse women, but by all means, protect yourself with force if you have to.

There is such a thing as reasonable force. A man hitting a woman with all his strength may well kill her. A woman - even Laila Ali - would be unlikely to kill a man with one punch. Surely the advice to men should be the same as the advice given to women, which is to get away to a safe place/call the cops, rather than "knock her out" which may put the woman in a coma and open the man to a jail sentence for using excessive force - if she lives.

LinkH · Oct 3, 2014

Reading Avniel's account of his parents, I'm thinking what the appropriate response would be. A 300 pound man knocking his wife out just isn't acceptable. What if he were to take hold of her wrists, pin her down on the bed, and just hold her there with enough body-weight on her where she couldn't do anything? Keep her there however long it took for her to either be completely calm, or crying, or anything except angry or violent? I wonder how the police or a court would react to that? That might be non-aggressive enough for the courts to side with the husband, but not harmful to his wife. If she knew if she hit him, she'd be pinned down for half an hour, that might stop that behavior fast, hopefully. I suppose leaving is another alternative, temporarily when you are angry, or breaking up the family. If I were in that situation, I'd probably go for the pin-down option, honestly.

Fortunately, I wasn't raised in a violent home aside from my brother and I getting into fights when we were little. We were very close in age. I'm also glad my wife and I aren't violent and don't engage in calling each other names or using profanity at each other. I've got one boy and rest are girls, and there is barely anything that resembles physical fighting among the children except for the toddler climbing on people and playing too rough.

But when I was about 9, I got an assigned seat on the bus next to this wild little 6-year-old. She just kept hitting me. It was an impossible situation to be in, because I couldn't hit a little girl, and she just kept hitting me most of the time. I even went to the principal about it, and he wasn't very helpful or compassionate about the situation at all. I did grab the girl's wrist at times, then her cousin sitting in front of me wasn't too happy about that.

Inkachu · Oct 3, 2014

I always say that the first option should be to get out of the situation. Walk away, run away. But if you're cornered or taken off guard and someone is beating the tar out of you (male, female, whatever), you have a right IMHO to incapacitate the other person so you can escape. If someone is attacking me, I'm going to strike them with anything I can; fists, feet, a weapon if my hand touches one. Obviously, there are varying factors that have to be considered. If someone is just following you through the house, lightly slapping you or poking you, that's not a reason to turn around and bash their skull in. I'm talking about being attacked to the point where your own safety or life is in danger. There are so many widely varying physiques and sizes and strengths of both men and women, we can't say that "men should" or "women should" because there will always be exceptions. We all know there are slightly built guys with no muscles to speak of, and we all know there are behemoth women out there who look more like lumberjacks with boobs. Yes, there is "reasonable force", and in non-life-threatening situations, reason and sense should be used. But when you're talking about a physical altercation, reason has probably already gone out the window. Get out if you can. If you can't, you have the right to defend yourself.

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