Dump for not being Christian

ArteestX · Jul 19, 2009

Steevo509 said:
But to be honest those are all starting to fade because I'm halfway through More than a Carpenter and I just can't object to the arguments made by the author. I've skimmed through many of the atheist books talked about in More than a Carpenter, and all of the compelling arguments I saw are being ripped to shred by the authors use of logic and history. I truly see how the books are meant to entertain and persuade through exaggerations and double standards.

I'm sorry, but you find Josh McDowell compelling? You think his arguments can't be objected to? I don't find the circular logic of "Jesus is God because the Bible says he did; The Bible is true because Jesus is God" to be particularly insightful. And don't get me started on the ridiculous "Jesus is either a liar, lunatic, or Lord" so-called conundrum.

I hope things work out between you and your girlfriend well, whatever that means. And I wish you well on your spiritual path. I do hope you find better books to read than Josh McDowell, though.

freeport · Jul 21, 2009

SiderealExalt said:
As an atheist who has been an "atheist in a foxhole." and one who lived in the Bible Belt for over a decade. I'm used to it.

I have to commend you though for your capacity to understand the complexity of these issues and not reduce them to absurdities. While that might not in any capacity nudge me to be anything but an atheist. It at least gives me confidence when it comes to crazy notions of atheist and theist Americans, and those on both sides of the fence in the rest of the world can have meaningful dialogue.

Like 80%+ Americans are Christian... maybe not very pure, sure, but I wouldn't judge them all just because of a specific background... a lot of people were raised around some very Pharisaical Christians and those types really love to wear their religion on their sleeves: while pouring out bad deeds in the Name of Christ.

So, I am not surprised to meet people - though they surely live and work around good people who are good Christians - that feel the only Christians are the ones that have been a menace to them.

But, be careful of seeing all Christians that way, for it makes you party to the bad deeds of the bad ones.

It is the same as when someone has not had much contact with an ethnic minority, then they have bad contact, and come to believe all are like that.

freeport · Jul 21, 2009

Van said:
Hi freeport, you say there is zero scriptural basis for breaking off a relationship because someone is not a Christian. But 2 Corinthians 6:14 says "Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness." Now you might understand the verse differently, but it would seem there is a biblical basis for believers to establish relationships with other believers to the extent the relationships are volitional.

In context he is speaking about churches being corrupted by worldly influence.

Is it best for Christians to find Christian spouses? Yes. Obviously. Does this always happen? No. If two are together should they seek to be separated? No. Should Christians be doing things such as forcing conversions like "be converted to marry me"? Absolutely not.

God controls the salvation of all. Who knows that a Christian might not, over time, persuade their spouse with their good deeds?

Clearly, what this woman did was bad. If they had slept together, they are married already. If they had not, as I sure hope, then it would not be true divorce to break up. But, in that case, she should have made the break clean instead of making such a request.

Jesus did not force anyone to believe Him but specifically said, "Those who are led by the Father come to me". He spoke, and those God gave Him came to Him.

It is the Pharisees who put Jesus to death who had forced conversion for marriage.

Note: Someone specifically decided to give me a blessing (two) just so they could add their own opinion there. That is rude. Now, everytime I look at my blessing comments, I will see their nasty opinion. If your opinion is weighty, why rely on trickery to get your message across? Just say it.

Even fools understand a weighty statement.

I would be wary of relying on tradition or religious peer pressure over truth and weighty evidence when judging. Because that is exactly what the Pharisees relied on.

The Pharisees were not raised up by God as the primary nemesis of Jesus by accident.

People should strive to not be like them.

Van · Jul 21, 2009

Hi Freeport, I simply pointed out the biblical basis for not forming intimate relationships with non-believers. I did not bless you, or post a nasty message, or behave in the manner of a Pharisee.

And one other Biblical point. Some say the Romans put Jesus to death. Some say the Pharisees did it. But the root of the matter is God the Father put Jesus to death according to his purpose and predetermined plan. Acts 2:23

Sketcher · Jul 22, 2009

You should convert for the right reasons. If she was completely out of the picture, would you convert anyway?

I'm sorry that you are going through this. If she had stuck to her faith to begin with and not dated an unbeliever, you would not be in this position.

SiderealExalt · Jul 22, 2009

freeport said:
Like 80%+ Americans are Christian... maybe not very pure, sure, but I wouldn't judge them all just because of a specific background... a lot of people were raised around some very Pharisaical Christians and those types really love to wear their religion on their sleeves: while pouring out bad deeds in the Name of Christ.

So, I am not surprised to meet people - though they surely live and work around good people who are good Christians - that feel the only Christians are the ones that have been a menace to them.

But, be careful of seeing all Christians that way, for it makes you party to the bad deeds of the bad ones.

It is the same as when someone has not had much contact with an ethnic minority, then they have bad contact, and come to believe all are like that.

My point was that not all Christians are like that. But that aside, nice or not. I still don't find the beliefs of the nice ones any more plausible than those of the not so nice ones.

[serious] · Jul 24, 2009

Leaving a spouse because he/she isn't christian is a no no according to the bible. The indication would be that a serious relationship would be about the same. I could see her not wanting to get married unless you converted, but not breaking it off. She is clearly in the wrong here even from a scriptural perspective.

bluwaterz · Jul 24, 2009

Hello Steevo,

First of all you or any one else should never become another religion for someone else. You need to decide what religion you want to be, because that sort of thing must always come from your own Heart.

And no I would not be something that I am not.

I hope that helps you Steeveo

Have a good day/Thanks for reading

bluwaterz

HumbleSiPilot77 · Jul 25, 2009

ArteestX said:
And don't get me started on the ridiculous "Jesus is either a liar, lunatic, or Lord" so-called conundrum.

Put Josh McDowell's evangelist apologetics and all the church history aside, I want to see how you ram heads with C.S. Lewis... Do you add "misunderstood" to the conundrum like the delusion artist Dawkins?

HumbleSiPilot77 · Jul 25, 2009

Steevo, like Mr. Cheese said, this girl is following her zeal, her method was entirely wrong. You might end up becoming a Christian or not, but can you imagine if she keeps the same behavior the rest of your "joined" lives? First you should not become a Christian, or believe, just because of her. Look, there are millions of Christian boys out there, let her go for them. My wife never gave me the ultimatum, she never threatened me, I was born and raised a muslim, through her support, love and patience, I am a Christian today, for about 7 years now. Your girlfriend is not willing to do that. Let her take the easy way out, you dump her. Don't take heed on the defense they are giving here on her behalf, it is ridiculous. Christ comes first, of course He does, but then why doesn't she become a nun? This evangelical nonsense has no boundaries. They are so worried who to win for the Lord, but then you are lost because this girl dumped you, that in itself just escapes them. What happened to "Love is patient; love is kind and envies no one. Love is never boastful, nor conceited, nor rude; never selfish, not quick to take offense."??? As I see they rather quote St. Paul off-context, that she should NOT be with you. Save the headache, go ahead and dump her now.

ArteestX · Jul 26, 2009

Bushmaster78FS said:
Put Josh McDowell's evangelist apologetics and all the church history aside, I want to see how you ram heads with C.S. Lewis... Do you add "misunderstood" to the conundrum like the delusion artist Dawkins?

Jesus was a liar, lunatic, Lord, inaccurately quoted, or had quotes attributed to him that he never said.

HumbleSiPilot77 · Jul 26, 2009

ArteestX said:
Jesus was a liar, lunatic, Lord, inaccurately quoted, or had quotes attributed to him that he never said.

The latter two which you added removes the first three. Your issue is with the Gospels, your issue is with the Gospel authors, you simply call them liars for what they have written. Which in turn means Christian Church NEVER knew the truth about Christ, because His words never accurately came down to us. But if the nature of the Gospels are not tarnished, if there was a church that preserved at least one theological document (such as St. John's gospel), then question is asked upon the understanding of divinity in the first century. Did He accurately explain Himself, or was He simply mistaken about Himself? "Whoops! I Thought I Was God..." - Jesus, the Honestly Mistaken? If He did not know he was wrong, He lacked knowledge because of an error in judgment. Errors in judgment have only two sources: A properly working mind, or an improperly working mind. The latter is the "lunatic" option. The former is the "honestly mistaken" option, the most common skeptical attempt to add to the trilemma.

Which exit do you take, Tarnished Gospels or a mistaken Jesus who thought He was son of God? If gospels are not reliable then we can not know the truth about Christ, what He claimed, what He didn't claim, etc. If the gospels are accurate then He claimed to live a sinless life, He claimed to be the ONLY way to God, He claimed to have shared the glory of God in Heaven, He claimed to be able to forgive sins, He claimed to be a Heavenly king, He claimed to be able to give everlasting life, He claimed that he would die and come back to life and He claimed that He would return again to judge the world ... Which claim is falsely attributed to Him? Which claim did He make He was mistaken about?

Stinker · Jul 26, 2009

Steevo509 said:
I just want to thank everyone for their wonderful answers.

Mr. Cheese - You're entirely correct the method was unreasonable. I told that if she wanted me to try an accept Jesus in my life it shouldn't have been through an ultimatum. A simple, "Would you like to come to a meeting, church, bible group with me? Its really important to me." would have worked to try and start me on the right path.

The problems I have with Christianity are
1. There are other religions that people believe in with just as much love in their hearts
2. Authenticity of the bible
3. Proof of the divinity of Jesus
4. Paul

But to be honest those are all starting to fade because I'm halfway through More than a Carpenter and I just can't object to the arguments made by the author. I've skimmed through many of the atheist books talked about in More than a Carpenter, and all of the compelling arguments I saw are being ripped to shred by the authors use of logic and history. I truly see how the books are meant to entertain and persuade through exaggerations and double standards.

All that remains troubling is Paul. Paul's ego is to big for me. But I suppose that one could be Christian, and follow CHRIST, and ignore some of Paul's teachings. Not all of course, because many do have merit.

With all that being said I am far from making a decision. But all of this has been a real eye opener. My girlfriend loves that I am trying, but I've made the decision to be on a break while I'm learning, and mainly because I want a girlfriend who loves ME for ME.

Thanks again for all your answers

Edit: I forgot to explain number 1. I believe most religions tend to have goal in mind for life on earth, and they all lead to the same understanding and compassion one can obtain during life. Who knows about the after life?

I do not think 'converting' to her religion at this point would be productive in the long run. Those problems you quoted as having with the Christian religion take lots-n-lots of study and lots-n-lots of time to digest. Then you said that you have a problem with declaring that extremely ethical and zealous people of other kinds of religions may lead to the same place the born-again believers are going. That is totally opposite of the teaching of some churches. Perhaps hers?

BRISH · Jul 26, 2009

Steevo509 said:
My girlfriend just got back from a Christian retreat in Florida.

First thing she did when she got back was to give me an ultimatum.

Become Christian for her or end the relationship.

I've already made my decision, but what would you guys/gals do?

Would you sacrifice who you are?

WOW....first of all, I don't think it's right for anyone to give another an ultimatum like that particularly in how you believe. It might also be that you took it that way when she was just stating that she felt she needed to only date someone who believed like her. Maybe she put it to you exactly as you say though, but overall this kind of decision should not be done for anybody else. I'm sorry your'e going through this and I hope it does not leave a distaste for you, for this faith.

She apparently is on a path that she feels can not include a nonbeliever. That can be hurtful, but is very much her right. Hopefully, it was done with sincerity filled with love for you as a person. It is her choice though, just as it is your choice in your beliefs.

No, I dont feel you should change for anybody else in this situation. Things should always be done because you feel the need to/want to for yourself.

Again, I'm sorry your'e going through this. Agreeing to change for any other human with just that reasoning will only cause strife and resentment down the road. Maybe though, now that I've read some of your other replies, there are other personal reasons that you would convert. Keep learning and observing for yourself. She is choosing her path and you can choose yours.

Good luck

ArteestX · Jul 27, 2009

Bushmaster78FS said:
The latter two which you added removes the first three. Your issue is with the Gospels, your issue is with the Gospel authors, you simply call them liars for what they have written.....

Because this point does not involve the OP, I don't want to derail this thread. I have created another thread titled "Liar Lunatic or Lord argument" where we can continue this particular point if you or anyone else chooses.

Minty · Jul 28, 2009

Mr.Cheese said:
her zeal has misguided her.
granted, religious differences are often the cause of friction eventually. if she can't live with that then that is how she should have expressed herself.
demanding that you become christian in order to continue dating her is ridiculous. god bless her but that's what it is. she is expressing concern for none of your feelings on the matter. i am utterly opposed to coercing or forcing someone to do something of this nature.
learn about jesus and who he was. forget the nonsense that hs been loaded into everything christian these days. follow jesus if your heart is in it. it's between you and him, not you and your girlfriend. i would love to see this happen. i'm just not so hip on you being forced into this.

Well said, and I totally agree. I feel sorry for the girl, in a way...I wonder what happened when she was away that made her return and act like this

HumbleSiPilot77 · Aug 5, 2009

HanzooznaH said:
Bigot.

irenemcg · Aug 6, 2009

Your girlfriend heeded what God had to say about her relationship with you, the Bible clearly says a Christian should not be unequally yoked. You cannot become a Christian because someone else desires it, you must desire to enter into a relationship with God yourself. God loves you dear friend and He is very much alive today. Your girlfriend may have found it hard to say goodbye to you, but she has discovered the love of God. She has someone who loves her unconditionally, for God loves with a perfect love. I suggest you search out where Alpha courses are being held in your area or attend an Evangelical church and find out something of what she has found in Jesus.
You are an unbeliever right now, but why not search for yourself and find out if this Jesus your girlfriend talked about is real.

Ask God to reveal Himself to you , if He is real?

You can't lose by doing that, praying that you might desire to seek this out for yourself, not because of this girl or any other girl.

Bro_Sam · Aug 22, 2009

Steevo509 said:
My girlfriend just got back from a Christian retreat in Florida.

First thing she did when she got back was to give me an ultimatum.

Become Christian for her or end the relationship.

I've already made my decision, but what would you guys/gals do?

Would you sacrifice who you are?

She shouldn't have been dating a non-Christian in the first place.

bluelime2 · Aug 25, 2009

I'm glad you're enjoying 'More Then A Carpenter' steevo, I haven't read it but I've heard it's a good book. Have you ever considered asking God himself if christianity is real and the right way to follow him?

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