Dubious verses in Leviticus and Deuteronomy

sdowney717

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They are all dead anyway those who do such evil things.
If man does not carry out judgement for their deeds, they will not escape God's judgement and wrath poured out on those who are disobedient unbelievers.

They just live a while longer or they die a little sooner.

Psalm 32
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Joy of Forgiveness

1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
Whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit.

Thank God that He shows mercy on some and does not impute to them their sins and are therefore forgiven. On some God shows mercy and others they despise His mercy. People who are stubborn and refuse to repent will be given over to be destroyed. God sent many prophets to warn sinners and woe on them that had no ears to hear what He said.

29 He who is often rebuked, and hardens his neck,
Will suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.

12 A worthless person, a wicked man,
Walks with a perverse mouth;
13 He winks with his eyes,
He shuffles his feet,
He points with his fingers;
14 Perversity is in his heart,
He devises evil continually,
He sows discord.
15 Therefore his calamity shall come suddenly;
Suddenly he shall be broken without remedy.
 
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Mediaeval

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However the OT laws and penalties were understood and interpreted and with whatever amount of severity or leniency, like Aiki I have no problem seeing the hand of a just and loving God behind each one. Far from threatening social extinction, these laws helped preserve Israel as an independent, holy nation.

One thing to keep in mind is that the civil government set up under the Mosaic Law does not appear to have been intrusive and all pervasive like the centralized governments of nations today.

Another thing to consider is that without God's word and wisdom in society, the innocent get hurt. This was as true in ancient times as now. As the West has grown secular, the formerly unthinkable has become a routine occurrence. Unborn babies have been slaughtered by the millions. What protection does the amoral perspective intrinsic to atheism afford the most innocent and vulnerable members of society?
 
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Tempus Fugit

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No, it was not only OK. It was NECESSARY.

In what deluded fantasy was it necessary to stone to death girls who had sex before they were married?

Oh? Why do you think checking to see that the hymen was undamaged was an inaccurate method of verifying virginity?

...is this a joke?
 
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juvenissun

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In what deluded fantasy was it necessary to stone to death girls who had sex before they were married?



...is this a joke?

1. I have not told you the reason.
2. I have told you the reason.

In either case, you called the reason as deluded fantasy. That says you are not qualified to know the reason.
 
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Everlasting33

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These concerns simply boil down to this: is God good?

Undoubtedly, we will not consider the Lord God worthy of our devotion if we see Him
as bad and we as good. We will despise, reject, forsake and rebuke Him because our hearts, without Christ, cannot be reconciled to our Creator.

Your best choice? Go to God in prayer. Let Him know you want the truth but do not know if He is there. Do you want THE truth? He is. Do you want true life? He is. Do you want the way? He is.
 
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juvenissun

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These concerns simply boil down to this: is God good?

Undoubtedly, we will not consider the Lord God worthy of our devotion if we see Him
as bad and we as good. We will despise, reject, forsake and rebuke Him because our hearts, without Christ, cannot be reconciled to our Creator.

Your best choice? Go to God in prayer. Let Him know you want the truth but do not know if He is there. Do you want THE truth? He is. Do you want true life? He is. Do you want the way? He is.

Your nice comment makes me think about one thing Lord Jesus says: The blindness inside. How dark it really is.

Amen.
 
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Tempus Fugit

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1. I have not told you the reason.
2. I have told you the reason.

In either case, you called the reason as deluded fantasy. That says you are not qualified to know the reason.

Please give me the justification without the sophistic embellishments. Why is it "necessary" to stone non-virgins to death, and why is it that God never shows any remorse over such "necessary" evils, and why does he never bother to clarify the situational necessity of the action for another few thousand years?

These concerns simply boil down to this: is God good?

Undoubtedly, we will not consider the Lord God worthy of our devotion if we see Him
as bad and we as good. We will despise, reject, forsake and rebuke Him because our hearts, without Christ, cannot be reconciled to our Creator.

Your best choice? Go to God in prayer. Let Him know you want the truth but do not know if He is there. Do you want THE truth? He is. Do you want true life? He is. Do you want the way? He is.

How does any of this justify God's ordering the complete genocide of entire tribes, rape, enslavement and torture?
 
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Everlasting33

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Your nice comment makes me think about one thing Lord Jesus says: The blindness inside. How dark it really is.

Amen.


Very true. Please see John Owen quote.
 

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Tempus Fugit

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*Sigh* What a seriously underwhelming response to my post. Must have caught you at a mental low-ebb.

aiki, that you actually believe that you can reliably test a woman's virginity by examining her hymen leads me to think you probably believe in spontaneous combustion theory as well. The presence of a hymen usually indicates virginity; the frightening part is that the inverse is not true, and so it is impossible to prove that someone is not a virgin, or at least in the time period of the OT. So god knew very well that hymen-testing was the most common method for "testing" virginity (with all others being possibly worse), and that therefore millions of innocent girls would be getting horribly stoned to death for "crimes" they did not even commit.

This is still ignoring the fact that God ordered rape victims to be stoned to death if they did not cry out (lol wut?), and the total genocide of entire tribes, including children, and the killing of homosexuals and people who work on sundays.

What parts of the Bible do you believe?

That's the problem; if you take the Bible to be the word or inspiration of God then you can't really "believe" some parts and then disbelieve others. At the most you can handwave some as figurative, but you cannot employ that argument to justify the evil laws and orders given in the OT, including mass genocide and torture. Pointing out more benign NT philosophies merely demonstrates that the Bible is self-contradicting.
 
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juvenissun

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Please give me the justification without the sophistic embellishments. Why is it "necessary" to stone non-virgins to death, and why is it that God never shows any remorse over such "necessary" evils, and why does he never bother to clarify the situational necessity of the action for another few thousand years?

Let's put it in a simple way.
If the lady will cause the death of your future children, will you kill her first?

Don't question the if. Let's keep the if.
 
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Tempus Fugit

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Let's put it in a simple way.
If the lady will cause the death of your future children, will you kill her first?

Don't question the if. Let's keep the if.

Actually, no, I would not, presuming that these children are not yet born.

But let's say I change my answer to "yes" - why don't you get to the point, because your condescending and horribly disjointed mode of revealing The Truth, of which you clearly have an overinflated sense of your own ability (read: you think gravity has a color), grows tiresome.
 
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Everlasting33

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That's the problem; if you take the Bible to be the word or inspiration of God then you can't really "believe" some parts and then disbelieve others. At the most you can handwave some as figurative, but you cannot employ that argument to justify the evil laws and orders given in the OT, including mass genocide and torture. Pointing out more benign NT philosophies merely demonstrates that the Bible is self-contradicting.

Until you know sin and hate sin, you will not understand the gravity of the Old Testament. Your focus is on why God is not good and this prevents you from coming to terms with different stories of the Bible.

It is useless to even debate the OT with an atheist because it is a disgust toward God that will always malign his or her perspective.

You may not believe the Christian God exists yet you are on a Christian forum talking about Him quite frequently. The truth is you know He exists but you don't like Him and yet your soul is not satisfied. It won't be until you humbly submit yourself under His Authority.

May God's peace and mercy rest upon you.
 
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juvenissun

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Actually, no, I would not, presuming that these children are not yet born.

But let's say I change my answer to "yes" - why don't you get to the point, because your condescending and horribly disjointed mode of revealing The Truth, of which you clearly have an overinflated sense of your own ability (read: you think gravity has a color), grows tiresome.

Do you know what does it mean if you say no? That means you value the life of this woman more than that of your own children. In the case of Israelites, this argument can easily expand to your parents, your friends, everyone related to you, and your nation. If so and you do not want to kill that woman, then I am afraid that many people would want to kill you.
 
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juvenissun

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Actually, no, I would not, presuming that these children are not yet born.

But let's say I change my answer to "yes" - why don't you get to the point, because your condescending and horribly disjointed mode of revealing The Truth, of which you clearly have an overinflated sense of your own ability (read: you think gravity has a color), grows tiresome.

OK, the gravity thing.

You said (I agree) that gravity is a "force". A force contains energy. Any objection?
 
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aiki

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aiki, that you actually believe that you can reliably test a woman's virginity by examining her hymen leads me to think you probably believe in spontaneous combustion theory as well.
Actually, I asked you a question about this "test" of virginity; I didn't make any statement about it pro or con.

The presence of a hymen usually indicates virginity; the frightening part is that the inverse is not true, and so it is impossible to prove that someone is not a virgin, or at least in the time period of the OT.
Uh huh. Generally, however, while this is not the best method of ascertaining virginity, it was, among the ways to do so at the time, likely the least unreliable. There were in the OT obviously none of the advantages of modern medicine available. You may, from your present position on the continuum of medical and scientific advancement look back and scoff at the means by which the OT Israelites tried to confirm virginity; but in doing so, you appear to expect unreasonably that the Israelites had the same benefit of modern medicine that you do and simply chose to ignore it.

So god knew very well that hymen-testing was the most common method for "testing" virginity (with all others being possibly worse), and that therefore millions of innocent girls would be getting horribly stoned to death for "crimes" they did not even commit.
THere is no historical record that indicates that millions of girls were stoned to death as a result of God's law. In fact, I don't know of a single instance in all of OT Scripture where this particular law was enacted against a woman. And this was, at least in part, what the law was intended to do: curb sexual promiscuity and marital infidelity. It seems to have worked quite well. Perhaps if God's OT law to the Israelites was more broadly applied and enforced today, millions of promiscuous woman would die, but the rampant sexual immorality of today did not exist when God issued His laws to Israel. In light of these things, your objection rather fizzles out.

This is still ignoring the fact that God ordered rape victims to be stoned to death if they did not cry out (lol wut?)
Because it was assumed the woman was silent because she was a willing participant in the sexual act rather than a victim of it. What woman being raped would not cry out - especially if she were being raped in a place where others would have heard her cries and come to her rescue? The woman's proximity to aid was a major consideration of the law. If calling out would not have helped her, if she were raped in some secluded place, then her not being heard to cry out did not count against her. Thus, under a law taking proximity to aid into account, a woman who was being raped somewhere her cries would have been heard had double motivation to cry out (in alarm and under the threat of the law), which, it seems to me, would have given a would-be rapist serious cause to think twice about sexually assaulting a woman (in addition to the death-penalty if he were caught). His victim would be powerfully motivated by her natural alarm and the dire threat of the law to scream her head off, alerting everyone in the near vicinity to what he was attempting to do to her. Of course, this would mean rapists would not be looking to rape women in populated areas. And the women, obviously, would realize this, too. They would expect to encounter such evil men in more secluded areas, which you can bet the women avoided when they were alone like the plague! Thus, the law made women very prudent and circumspect with men and would-be rapists extremely put off by the difficulty and risks of trying to rape a woman.

and the total genocide of entire tribes
Which I already explained.

and the killing of homosexuals
God still judges and condemns homosexuality today. He doesn't expect us to mete out His punishment upon this sin on His behalf today, however. Instead, God reserves executing His judgment upon the wicked for Himself, which He will do when, after their death, they meet Him face-to-face.

Homosexuality was a perversion of God's intended design for sexuality in the time of OT Israel and it remains a sexual abomination in God's eyes today. You may not see a problem with homosexuality, but this doesn't necessarily make your view on it a moral one.

and people who work on sundays.
I explained this one, too.

Selah.
 
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Tempus Fugit

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Actually, I asked you a question about this "test" of virginity; I didn't make any statement about it pro or con.

Uh huh. Generally, however, while this is not the best method of ascertaining virginity, it was, among the ways to do so at the time, likely the least unreliable. There were in the OT obviously none of the advantages of modern medicine available. You may, from your present position on the continuum of medical and scientific advancement look back and scoff at the means by which the OT Israelites tried to confirm virginity; but in doing so, you appear to expect unreasonably that the Israelites had the same benefit of modern medicine that you do and simply chose to ignore it.

No. The hymen test is worse than useless, it leads to false positives that, in this "justice" system, lead to torturous deaths.

THere is no historical record that indicates that millions of girls were stoned to death as a result of God's law. In fact, I don't know of a single instance in all of OT Scripture where this particular law was enacted against a woman. And this was, at least in part, what the law was intended to do: curb sexual promiscuity and marital infidelity. It seems to have worked quite well. Perhaps if God's OT law to the Israelites was more broadly applied and enforced today, millions of promiscuous woman would die, but the rampant sexual immorality of today did not exist when God issued His laws to Israel. In light of these things, your objection rather fizzles out.

All you're establishing is that the law wasn't too bad because it was never really implemented. And you think it's OK to threaten death by stoning to curb "sexual immorality"?

Notice how the Bible condemns having sex out of wedlock moreso than sexual assault?



Because it was assumed the woman was silent because she was a willing participant in the sexual act rather than a victim of it. What woman being raped would not cry out - especially if she were being raped in a place where others would have heard her cries and come to her rescue? The woman's proximity to aid was a major consideration of the law. If calling out would not have helped her, if she were raped in some secluded place, then her not being heard to cry out did not count against her. Thus, under a law taking proximity to aid into account, a woman who was being raped somewhere her cries would have been heard had double motivation to cry out (in alarm and under the threat of the law), which, it seems to me, would have given a would-be rapist serious cause to think twice about sexually assaulting a woman (in addition to the death-penalty if he were caught). His victim would be powerfully motivated by her natural alarm and the dire threat of the law to scream her head off, alerting everyone in the near vicinity to what he was attempting to do to her. Of course, this would mean rapists would not be looking to rape women in populated areas. And the women, obviously, would realize this, too. They would expect to encounter such evil men in more secluded areas, which you can bet the women avoided when they were alone like the plague! Thus, the law made women very prudent and circumspect with men and would-be rapists extremely put off by the difficulty and risks of trying to rape a woman.


This justifies ordering that such women be stoned to death...how?

And do you honestly believe that this is actually true? Why don't our legislatures enact the same policies then?

Which I already explained.

You did not. Genocide is genocide is genocide.

God still judges and condemns homosexuality today. He doesn't expect us to mete out His punishment upon this sin on His behalf today, however. Instead, God reserves executing His judgment upon the wicked for Himself, which He will do when, after their death, they meet Him face-to-face.

Are you such a sociopathic piece of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] that you actually think it's OK that god once expected homosexuals to be put to death...because they had sex with other men? For infants to be killed, women and children to be stoned to death, entire villages to be eradicated of all semblances of life for no reason beyond some personal, irrational pet peeve of your lord thy god?

Homosexuality was a perversion of God's intended design for sexuality in the time of OT Israel and it remains a sexual abomination in God's eyes today. You may not see a problem with homosexuality, but this doesn't necessarily make your view on it a moral one.

Your god sounds like a narcissistic piece of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].
 
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aiki

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No. The hymen test is worse than useless, it leads to false positives that, in this "justice" system, lead to torturous deaths.
This does nothing to alleviate what appears to be an unreasonable expectation on your part that the Israelites should have had the same knowledge of modern science and medicine that you do. Really, the Bible doesn't actually clearly stipulate what test was performed to establish virginity. Your strident objection to this one particular test may be completely moot.

All you're establishing is that the law wasn't too bad because it was never really implemented. And you think it's OK to threaten death by stoning to curb "sexual immorality"?
No, I'm pointing out that your use of hyperbole for dramatic effect is an unwarranted and obvious rhetorical ploy. In spite of what you've asserted, millions of girls did not die as a result of God's law against sexual promiscuity and marital infidelity.

I think God can employ whatever measures He pleases to induce His creatures to behave as He has commanded them to behave. This is His prerogative as the Creator and Sustainer of Everything.

Notice how the Bible condemns having sex out of wedlock moreso than sexual assault?
No, I don't, actually.

This justifies ordering that such women be stoned to death...how?

And do you honestly believe that this is actually true? Why don't our legislatures enact the same policies then?
You seem very quick to forget (or ignore) that the laws you're so bent about were given specifically to the Israelites, who began as a society under theocratic rule. No society today is a theocracy and the laws given to Israel have been set aside for a New Covenant between God and humanity that God has instituted. As a result, stoning women for sexual sin is not required.

In any case, as I said, God can do whatever He wants, however He wants, with what He has made. If He says sexual promiscuity ought to be punished by death, then it ought to be. As I also pointed out in my last post, the death penalty for sin is still in effect. God, though, no longer requires a human agent to execute His punishment of sin upon another. He'll take care of that Himself. He has an eternal punishment waiting for all who defy His holy standard and rebelliously shake their fist in His face.

You did not. Genocide is genocide is genocide.
The question isn't if genocide was genocide but if it was justified. I think in the instances recounted in the OT, God was fully justified in punishing with destruction those wicked nations that had set themselves against Him and His Chosen People and had as a nation embraced the vilest evils one can imagine (child sacrifice, inappropriate behavior with animals, sodomy, etc).

Are you such a sociopathic piece of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] that you actually think it's OK that god once expected homosexuals to be put to death...because they had sex with other men?
All you demonstrate here is a modern bias in favor of homosexuality. Swearing at me does not one, single thing to further your point of view or diminish mine. God has, and has always had, the supreme right to define what is sin and to punish it as He sees fit. God says homosexuality is sin and deserves death and no amount of your angry blustering about it makes His right to decide this any less His right.

For infants to be killed, women and children to be stoned to death, entire villages to be eradicated of all semblances of life for no reason beyond some personal, irrational pet peeve of your lord thy god?
But it isn't for some "irrational pet peeve" that God judges and punishes sin. This is the sort of silly Strawman arguing that atheists like to use, but it is still fallacious regardless of how often atheists employ it. God lays out very plainly in Scripture why He judges sin with the terrible severity that He does. Divine peevishness has nothing to do with it. Accusing God of peevishness completely misunderstands His nature. It is entirely too anthropomorphic a criticism.

It seems pretty clear that your attitude in posting isn't one of exploration and understanding but of vilification and angry assault. A very typical atheist approach to a differing point of view.

Selah.
 
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