Dual Moshiach

[simchat_torah]

I know THAT silly... what I mean is about the Messiah... one or two?

haha, sorry I didn't quite follow the first time. To be honest, the Messiah figure isn't of monumental importance to me right now. But with that said, I think there are strong hints of a single Messiah come twice. However, I can not deny the flip side of the argument, the case is not 100% resolved in my mind.

 

[Meshavrischika]

haha, sorry I didn't quite follow the first time. To be honest, the Messiah figure isn't of monumental importance to me right now. But with that said, I think there are strong hints of a single Messiah come twice. However, I can not deny the flip side of the argument, the case is not 100% resolved in my mind.

so how (in your mind) can he come twice and how would that work out theoretically without him dying, or if he did die, how would that be perceived?

 

[Eben Abram]

Shalom ALecheim

Two Comings is not unheard of,

Eliyahu comes twice, there are stories that he visits at shabbos disguised as a poor person.

There are many ambiguities that were discussed in Judaism that often are supposed until discovered or chosen to ignore.

Some involve Messiah and many sects in judaism argue over it.

Eben

 

[Observer2008]

tks for all the important informations.
only messiah ben david can explain everything clearly to everybody perhaps without further confusions.
the 1st messiah succeeds in building the 3rd temple. so the 3rd temple is the key.

 

[GuardianShua]

tks for all the important informations.
only messiah ben david can explain everything clearly to everybody perhaps without further confusions.
the 1st messiah succeeds in building the 3rd temple. so the 3rd temple is the key.

The two Messiahs

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"Messiah of Aaron and Israel." Priest and nation, Knowledge and wisdom. Dead Sea Scrolls: The Damascus Rule.#6. "But God remembered the Covenant with the forfathers,and He raised from Aaron men of discernment and from Israel men of wisdom," The Community Rule (1QS) D.S.S. #9. "until there shall come the prophet and Messiah of Aaron and Israel". Yahshua is the Messiah of Aaron and Israel.
Isaiah 11:2
The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him— the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD - See also: Luke 2:40-47. And: 1Cor 1:18-25.

Luke 2:39. When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. 40And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him.

The Boy Jesus at the Temple
41Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover. 42When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom. 43After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. 44Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. 45When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. 46After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers.

1 Corinthians 1:18. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

There is only one Messiah of Aaron and Israel, and that is Yahshua.

 

[Israeli]

Judaism teaches two comings of Messiah. “Messiah son of Joseph” and “Messiah son of David”. “Son of” in Judaism does not only mean a biological son but it often means “in the image of”. In Judaism there is no doubt that the Messiah comes through the lineage of King David. So to understand the first, “son of Joseph”, we need to look at Joseph’s life.

JOSEPH
Joseph was sent by his father to see to his Jewish brothers’ welfare and they betrayed him into the hands of the Gentiles and he was considered dead by his father. Yeshua was sent by His Father to see to His Jewish brothers’ welfare and they betrayed Him into the hands of the Gentiles and He was considered dead by His Father. This message is not easily received. Today most Jews still do not know about this Jewish teaching.

DAVID
King David was a very good king who brought the Jewish nation success and prosperity. Most Jews are waiting for “Messiah son of David” to bring peace in the Middle East and set up his ruler-ship in Jerusalem restoring the Kingdom of Israel and instituting Tabernacles “חג הסוכות” for all nations in Zechariah 14:16. A prosperity message is easily received.

What happened when Yeshua rode into Jerusalem in Matthew 21?
Well first in Matthew 20:17, Yeshua prophesies His betrayal to the Gentiles who will crucify Him. This sounds like “Messiah son of Joseph”. But in Matthew 21 when Yeshua enters Jerusalem at Passover, the multitudes cry out, “Hosanna to the Son of David!”. “Hosanna” means “please save”. Now they think that Yeshua will save them in the manner of King David, a political solution to Roman occupancy. It seems as though the people are totally ignorant here of “Messiah son of Joseph”.

Psalm 118:25 tells us that Messiah brings prosperity at His second coming after Armageddon. Therefore we are not in the prosperity era yet.

http://www.israelimission.org

Israel

 

[Observer2008]

tks for this info, israeli. very interesting.

 

[Blahoye Cobaka]

Since I cannot bring real debate here, I will simply state that educated Jews are very aware of this passage in the Talmud, especially in regard to how it is commonly used by missionaries. The teaching that Israeli has posted above is not the Jewish understanding, and is widely recognised as a missionary invention.

 

[simchat_torah]

Yes, I agree Blahoye.

 

[ChavaK]

Since I cannot bring real debate here, I will simply state that educated Jews are very aware of this passage in the Talmud, especially in regard to how it is commonly used by missionaries. The teaching that Israeli has posted above is not the Jewish understanding, and is widely recognised as a missionary invention.

Yep......

 

[visionary]

IF dual mean returning.. then I go for Yeshua came and went and will be returning.

 

[Israeli]

The greatest of the Jewish sages in the Talmud could not understand this Talmudic teaching. They try to reason that if Jews are worthy then Mashiach will come quickly on a horse but if they are not worthy then He will come slowly on a donkey. All rabbis teach this. It is all philosophy and debating to try to understand what is a mystery to them but not a mystery to a Messianic Jew. It all makes sense through the New Testament.

Furthermore ALL predictions made by the great sages in the Talmud concerning the time of the Messiah's coming have already passed yet rabbis deny that the Messiah has come. Just goes to show how they understand their own teachings and philosophies.

I lived in a yeshivah in Benei Brak, the most Ultra-Orthodox Jewish city in Israel and the world.

Since I cannot bring real debate here, I will simply state that educated Jews are very aware of this passage in the Talmud, especially in regard to how it is commonly used by missionaries. The teaching that Israeli has posted above is not the Jewish understanding, and is widely recognised as a missionary invention.

 

[Blahoye Cobaka]

The greatest of the Jewish sages in the Talmud could not understand this Talmudic teaching. They try to reason that if Jews are worthy then Mashiach will come quickly on a horse but if they are not worthy then He will come slowly on a donkey. All rabbis teach this. It is all philosophy and debating to try to understand what is a mystery to them but not a mystery to a Messianic Jew. It all makes sense through the New Testament.

Furthermore ALL predictions made by the great sages in the Talmud concerning the time of the Messiah's coming have already passed yet rabbis deny that the Messiah has come. Just goes to show how they understand their own teachings and philosophies.

Huh? This is nonsense.

I lived in a yeshivah in Benei Brak, the most Ultra-Orthodox Jewish city in Israel and the world.

You're saying that you were Haredi?

Blahoye Cobaka, how old are you and where do you really come from? and be honest now

I'm 28 and born in Montreal. Where do you really come from? Be honest.

 

[Israeli]

Why don't you spend some time in yeshivah in Israel and ask the rabbis about these things? Then we will talk again.

Huh? This is nonsense.

You're saying that you were Haredi?

Yes I was and the rosh hashivah wanted me to marry one of his daughters.

I'm 28 and born in Montreal.

 

[Blahoye Cobaka]

Why don't you spend some time in yeshivah in Israel and ask the rabbis about these things? Then we will talk again.

I have actually been planning to at some point in the future. However, it's not that I don't understand what you're saying, it's that I recognise it as nonsense.

Yes I was and the rosh hashivah wanted me to marry one of his daughters.

If you were in fact Haredi, then I'm sure you'll find your way back to the truth.

 

[Israeli]

The rabbi admitted to us that there are serious problems with Judaism that only the Messiah can fix, until then it is a disfunctional religion.

After the destruction of the Temple, Torah could not be kept anymore, so the Council at Yavne just invented a new religion that does not require a Temple and called it Judaism.

The rabbis say, "ask questions!", but be careful if you go to yeshivah and ask too many questions like I did, then they get angry.

If you were in fact Haredi, then I'm sure you'll find your way back to the truth.

 

[-Nikolai-]

After the destruction of the Temple, Torah could not be kept anymore, so the Council at Yavne just invented a new religion that does not require a Temple and called it Judaism.

What about Daniel? Was Judaism dead then too? Could the Torah not be kept then?

 

[simchat_torah]

The rabbi admitted to us that there are serious problems with Judaism that only the Messiah can fix, until then it is a disfunctional religion.

Based on your claims of one Rabbi's words, you say the whole religion is dysfunctional???

wow...