concretecamper
I stand with Candice.
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Tomayto TomaaatoIn the sacrament of confession the priest absolves sins he does not forgive them. I see that you are a Catholic while I am not but I urge you to ask a priest or bishop if they teach and if the Catholic Church teaches that priests forgive sins as distinct from absolving sins.
I think you do have a good point. Theologically, confession can and does happen in odd circumstances; but a sacrament is meant to be holy. The normative process should be designed to put the human recipient in a mode outside of his normal life activities. This is not because God cannot work outside the sacramental setting; but because humans need a jolt to pull them out of the flesh of this world and into a spiritual place where they can comprehend the enormous grace that God gives us. If we allow this sacrament to become too worldly, we are losing that and slipping into the cheap contrition that is practiced by most today, where my buddy, Jesus, gives me everything I ask for with no effort on my part to reform or even recognize the seriousness of my sin.I don't find the pandemic horrifying...
and I live in Italy.
We should take very good care of ourselves, now especially...
but other than that, the time comes to die and it will come.
I find drive thru confessions rather horrifying because it seems to be a cold
procedure and does not have any of the sacramental qualities to it.
Do you approve of it?
Just a side note.
Actually the very early church DID start out doing confession the way you describe...However, the sins were said out loud and this became a problem.
It would be interesting for you to do a short study on how the confession we have today came about.
Church history is important to know,,,it's a shame more are not interested - especially we Protestants...we don't care at all about church history because we feel it's a "catholic thing".
This is unfortunate.
Yes, agreed !I think you do have a good point. Theologically, confession can and does happen in odd circumstances; but a sacrament is meant to be holy. The normative process should be designed to put the human recipient in a mode outside of his normal life activities. This is not because God cannot work outside the sacramental setting; but because humans need a jolt to pull them out of the flesh of this world and into a spiritual place where they can comprehend the enormous grace that God gives us. If we allow this sacrament to become too worldly, we are losing that and slipping into the cheap contrition that is practiced by most today, where my buddy, Jesus, gives me everything I ask for with no effort on my part to reform or even recognize the seriousness of my sin.
I don't know the history of indulgences or doing penance on another's behalf. I don't agree with either practice.Generally speaking the modern practice of individual private confession came from the Irish, actually. Not all of the Irish practices made it to the present day—for instance, the Celtic penchant for fines solving everything led to being able to pay people to do penance on your behalf!—but that's where "private" reconciliation, as distinct from the elsewhere-in-medieval-Europe practice of public penances has its roots, as far as I can discern.
See link in my post no. 86....Generally speaking the modern practice of individual private confession came from the Irish, actually. Not all of the Irish practices made it to the present day—for instance, the Celtic penchant for fines solving everything led to being able to pay people to do penance on your behalf!—but that's where "private" reconciliation, as distinct from the elsewhere-in-medieval-Europe practice of public penances has its roots, as far as I can discern.
I don't know the history of indulgences or doing penance on another's behalf. I don't agree with either practice.
I do know some history on confession and I never read anything about it being an Irish practice.
Just quick:
In the early church there was no confession.
They believed that after baptism persons would no longer sin due to the dwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Some waited to be baptized because this forgave all their sins...some even waited to be near death.
But soon enough it was realized that persons would keep on sinning. So they began to have confession when gathering...they were said out loud and then forgiven. You could imagine what this caused in a community.
Private confession came about in the 9th century --- I beleive.
Here's a good link:
Sacrament of Penance - Wikipedia
I hope you read the link on the post I had directed you to. It DID mention about celtic confessions, but it was already in the middle ages -- confession was pretty set by this time.I wasn't meaning to contradict this. I was supplementing that I believe the practice of private confession, as opposed to public confession, seems to have originated with the Irish.
I agree that doing penance on another's behalf is, at best, specious, though that's distinct from indulgences, indulgences being really outside the scope of this discussion.
I hope you read the link on the post I had directed you to. It DID mention about celtic confessions, but it was already in the middle ages -- confession was pretty set by this time.
I don't agree with indulgences either. I don't think it's up to man to tell God what to do.
Pope Francis had just declared that sins will be forgiven even without confession (even mortal) if a set procedure is followed. Is this right?
If this can be true for now...then it can be true at any time, even without confession.
I had to leave the Catholic church many years ago. One of the biggest problems I had in studying doctrine to make this big decision, was exactly that of confession. But even when we confess, it's God doing the forgiving, not the priest, of course. The priest confirms and this is very good and helps people in many ways, spiritually, psychologically, emotionally. I would never argue with anyone about confession - it's a personal matter. But I still maintain that if it can be waived...then why would it be necessary at all? It cannot be the Pope to dictate what God has revealed to the church.
You did not use any biblical passages but I did and your reply implied that I wrenched the passage I quoted out of context. I do not see how my posts could be construed as teaching that you quoted the scriptures and wrenched them out of context.First, of course, is that I did not reference any biblical verse, so one cannot say that I "wrenched" a verse out of context.
I am confident that some Catholics have had "drive through" confession for a considerable time, not just a year or two. Much room is made for the disabled and for others who may need such helpful variant on the usual forms.A year ago I dare say had anyone proposed the notion of drive-through confession you would have had the same comment. Reality, such as we know it, is getting more imaginative each day.
What makes you think that calling the elders means calling all of the elders of a diocese? Why is it not calling the elders of the church (in Antioch, for example) if you call one or two of them best known to you?calling for the elders of the church (several men who would come to a person's home) rather than having the sick person go to a church to meet with a clergyman and including confession of sins as part and parcel with the anointing with oil of the sick person
That claim is simply not true. In some English bibles, notably Protestant bibles, it may be so but it is not so with all bibles in English. Besides, priest in English is rooted in Presbyter, that is indisputable.Presbyter is translated in English as elder
Not really, absolution is a spoke assurance of forgiveness. It is spoken by a priest as representative of Christ. Forgiveness is the act of God forgiving sins because of Jesus Christ's mission in this world to redeem God's people from their sins. The distinction is not moot. It is clear and significant.Tomayto Tomaaato
You did not use any biblical passages but I did and your reply implied that I wrenched the passage I quoted out of context. I do not see how my posts could be construed as teaching that you quoted the scriptures and wrenched them out of context.
That is not correct.You did not take the verse in its context. That is an indisputable fact.
Confession is not about "who" forgives sins. God forgives and that is not disputed by anyone.
Confession is about advice, reassurance, help, and hearing. Hearing the assurance of God's forgiveness.
James 5:14-16 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.
That is not correct.
I did in fact quote sufficient context to see what the verse is about, and James 5 is short enough for anyone following the conversation to read in full without taking much time.
Yes really. But you seems to have your mind made up.Not really.
Yes really. But you seems to have your mind made up.
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