Drinking

[Smoky]

There was no juice in the past really. We take things like refrigeration and pasteurization for granted, these did not exist back then.

The only method at the time is to squeeze the grape juice and preserve it by having it undergo controlled fermentation.

Actually, we underestimate the ability of the ancients to preserve juice along with other fresh fruit. They knew how to prevent fermentation by boiling, several processes of filtration, and placing it in cool, damp places under the ground. Detailed explanations of how to preserve fruit and juices can be found in ancient classical literature. In fact, it was the unfermented juice that was said to be best because it didn't bite or cause the head to swim. When the Bible talks about "good wine" which does it mean? Healthy grape juice or fermented wine that causes hangovers?

 

[Brother Owl]

There was no juice in the past really. We take things like refrigeration and pasteurization for granted, these did not exist back then.

The only method at the time is to squeeze the grape juice and preserve it by having it undergo controlled fermentation.

Actually, we underestimate the ability of the ancients to preserve juice along with other fresh fruit. They knew how to prevent fermentation by boiling, several processes of filtration, and placing it in cool, damp places under the ground. Detailed explanations of how to preserve fruit and juices can be found in ancient classical literature. In fact, it was the unfermented juice that was said to be best because it didn't bite or cause the head to swim. When the Bible talks about "good wine" which does it mean? Healthy grape juice or fermented wine that causes hangovers?

It's simply ridiculous to suggest the bible excludes drinking fermented wine that is if you've truly studied the subject.

There are scriptures that recommend drinking to forget ones troubles. I don't think that grape juice would qualify. In balance the scripture permits the consumption of alcohol but not the practice of drunkenness. There are also scripture that recommend wine for a merry heart. And once again the word wine from the original is a fermented beverage.

I've no doubt the ancients could bury something to keep it cool so as to preserve it. But let's be practical in our observations and realistic in our dividing of GOD'S WORD and not bend it to our own individual preferences.
Lest we find ourselves becoming modern day Pharisees teaching traditions of men and making void God's Word.

 

[Smoky]

There are scriptures that recommend drinking to forget ones troubles. I don't think that grape juice would qualify.

If this is referring to Proverbs 31:6, how can we equate giving a sedative to a dying person with recommending drinking to forget ones troubles. Proverbs 31:6 (NRSV)
Give strong drink to one who is perishing,
and wine to those in bitter distress; There are much better drugs than alcohol for that in this day and time!
Also consider: Proverbs 23:29 (NRSV)
Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has strife? Who has complaining?
Who has wounds without cause?
Who has redness of eyes? How does adding "woe" "sorrow" and "strife" to ones life qualify as things that would cause one to forget his troubles?

There are also scripture that recommend wine for a merry heart. And once again the word wine from the original is a fermented beverage.

Well, again there are scriptures that show that wine is more than a fermented beverage. Gen. 49:11; Isaiah 16:10; Jer. 40:10; Jer. 48:33. If I want something for a merry heart, it's not going to be something that causes: "woe" , "sorrow", "strife", "complaining", "wounds without cause" and "redness of eyes". I think grape juice would be better for that. It's not so unusual for one word to have different connotations in the Bible depending on context. Years ago, wine could refer to either fermented or unfermented grape juice even in our language, and was given those definitions in dictionaries. To this day "cider" has those meanings!

But let's be practical in our observations and realistic in our dividing of GOD'S WORD and not bend it to our own individual preferences.
Lest we find ourselves becoming modern day Pharisees teaching traditions of men and making void God's Word.

Well, I agree we should not bend the scriptures to our preferences but I think being Pharisaical means that we give lesser emphasis to the "weightier matters of the law" like justice, mercy and faith. Math. 23:23. But again it says that the lesser was not to be left undone! The Bible and not tradition should be the determining factor in deciding right from wrong. Moderation is recommended for things not condemned, total abstinence for those that are. Consider the effects of alcohol today when most of us drive an automobile every single day. It's been determined that only a small ammount affects our driving ability. Even if you're right about it being rediculous to suggest the Bible excludes drinking, don't you think common sense and moderation would exclude it in modern times?

 

[Brother Owl]

If this is referring to Proverbs 31:6, how can we equate giving a sedative to a dying person with recommending drinking to forget ones troubles. Proverbs 31:6 (NRSV)
Give strong drink to one who is perishing,
and wine to those in bitter distress; There are much better drugs than alcohol for that in this day and time!
Also consider: Proverbs 23:29 (NRSV)
Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has strife? Who has complaining?
Who has wounds without cause?
Who has redness of eyes? How does adding "woe" "sorrow" and "strife" to ones life qualify as things that would cause one to forget his troubles?

Well, again there are scriptures that show that wine is more than a fermented beverage. Gen. 49:11; Isaiah 16:10; Jer. 40:10; Jer. 48:33. If I want something for a merry heart, it's not going to be something that causes: "woe" , "sorrow", "strife", "complaining", "wounds without cause" and "redness of eyes". I think grape juice would be better for that. It's not so unusual for one word to have different connotations in the Bible depending on context. Years ago, wine could refer to either fermented or unfermented grape juice even in our language, and was given those definitions in dictionaries. To this day "cider" has those meanings!

Well, I agree we should not bend the scriptures to our preferences but I think being Pharisaical means that we give lesser emphasis to the "weightier matters of the law" like justice, mercy and faith. Math. 23:23. But again it says that the lesser was not to be left undone! The Bible and not tradition should be the determining factor in deciding right from wrong. Moderation is recommended for things not condemned, total abstinence for those that are. Consider the effects of alcohol today when most of us drive an automobile every single day. It's been determined that only a small ammount affects our driving ability. Even if you're right about it being rediculous to suggest the Bible excludes drinking, don't you think common sense and moderation would exclude it in modern times?

There is no doubt scripture has much to say about alcohol, some seemingly condemnatory and others which extol. The real point I'm trying to make is we should be very careful how we divide God's Word. It's so easy to allow our preferences or what we've been taught to direct our opinion. If the bible allows for something we have to agree, we might add I don't like it, but that's what it says.

My point is the scriptures clearly say drunkenness is wrong. But clearly also allows for the consumption of alcohol. I agree with you it is also dangerous and not only when people are driving. I've personal experience with drunkenness and its horrible consequences, also drug abuse, people I've known have lost their lives as a consequence of substance abuse.

It is dangerous to drink if you lack control. Very dangerous. The same is true of many things. Common sense is what is important. And I believe the WHOLE TRUTH MUST BE PROCLAIMED not just the parts we like. It's the TRUTH THAT SETS US FREE NOT FRAGMENTS OF IT.

Blessings my friend! You've been kind in your rebuttal and I thank you!
God Bless.

I'm done for now with this subject but have enjoyed your fellowship. I've recently suffered a death in the family and probably won't be posting for awhile.

God Bless You!
Brother Owl

 

[RVincent]

Yes, once the fermenting process ends, wine is aged and then served (without bubbling).

Yahoo Serious found a way to put bubbles into beer with his formula e=mc².

 

[Zoomer]

Also the bible says that if it offendsyour brother then to stop doing it......well you drinking and callingyourself a christian offends me. so stop it already.

I don't recall the Bible saying if it offends your brother, I recall it saying if it causes him to stumble. If I have a glass or two of wine in my home, I am not causing another to stumble. However, I am not to go and drink in front of an alcohol or someone who does approve of drinking. Nor am I to judge someone for what they eat/drink or for what they abstain from. "Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has accepted him." Romans 14:3

lastly. the wine of biblical days was only grape juice anyway not fermented because the fermenting process required levening and they drank "wine" during the feast of unleavening. so there fore even when it says wine in the bible it meant grape juice.

Isaiah 25:5 "On this mountain the LORD Almighty will prepare
a feast of rich food for all peoples,
a banquet of aged wine-
the best of meats and the finest of wines."

If wine means grape juice as you stated, then in the verse above aged wine is meant to be read as aged grape juice. If you age grape juice, it will naturally ferment producing wine. So either way, the verse is talking about wine. I do not understand the theology behind denying that Jesus drank wine at the Last Supper and the proclaimation that it was grape juice. If it is thought that Jesus sinned by drinking wine, He did not. As it has been stated consumption of alcohol is not a sin, but drunkeness is.

And when paul told timothy to drink wine he meant grape juice also. If you ask any doctor if you have stomache problems do you drink wine he will tell you no. However grape juice is good foryour stomach and it has alot of anti oxidants in it to help heal .............

Studies show that one glass of wine a day can help cut the chance of heart disease so it too has health benefits. Futhermore, wine is found to be even more effective than grape juice for heart health.


Wine's special delivery
But wine presents these flavonoids and antioxidants to the body in a way that juices do not. During the course of processing ordinary juice, the phenolic compounds are largely degraded by their exposure to oxygen, dramatically lowering levels of the heart-helping chemical substances. Wine making, with its anaerobic process (that is, one not exposed to oxygen), preserves these. Juice is still "good for the heart," but perhaps not as good as wine.

The article is found here:
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/heart/9907/06/wine.heart/mportant chemical compounds


Wine is in effect healthier for our bodies than fast food but no one here is preaching the dangers of McDonald's.

 

[stray bullet]

Actually, we underestimate the ability of the ancients to preserve juice along with other fresh fruit. They knew how to prevent fermentation by boiling, several processes of filtration, and placing it in cool, damp places under the ground.

Ok, first of all the temperature underground can only go to 55F. That is way to warm, not even a fridge will go that warm on its lowest setting. At 55F, fermentation can and will occur. Furthermore, boiling and filtration does not prevent fermentation. The only way to prevent it would be to seal it and boil it, which is called pasteurization.

Vineyards would not be crazy enough to risk a year's stock on the rare chance it won't get infected.
I am a homebrewer, we boil the wort, which has 1/3 the sugars wine does, seal it up far better than they were able to in the past and still worry about how fast fermentation takes place because if our yeast doesn't hurry up, we run the risk of something else taking its place and spoiling the beer- this is something that is a matter of days and weeks, not a YEAR.

You would have to continually tap the supply, which would risk infection.

Detailed explanations of how to preserve fruit and juices can be found in ancient classical literature. In fact, it was the unfermented juice that was said to be best because it didn't bite or cause the head to swim. When the Bible talks about "good wine" which does it mean? Healthy grape juice or fermented wine that causes hangovers?

Which verses are you referring to? Wine does not cause hangovers. Excessive drinking causes hangovers. Almost any wine is good, as it is quite healthy.

Wine would also be one of few sources of vitamin C throughout the year as well.