Drinking With Calvin and Luther

[Cajun Huguenot]

We do not think wine sinful, but consider it God's gift. We do it out of consideration for this verse: 1 Corinthians 10:28, "But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:" Anything that does not glorify God is sinful, right? Therefore, if a man comes into our church on Communion Sunday and sees wine being consumed which he personally considers to be wrong (though he is the one who is wrong), then what have we done to his heart? It isn't worth it.

Besides, what about the bread?

I respect other views on this subject, but think it far down the list of things to argue about. So now we have two views, equally defensible. Any others?

Hey Bob,

WHile we disagree on this point it is not one that should cause us to distance ourselves from brethren with whom we disagree. We agree on that.

As to your point about 1 Corinthians 10:28, I don't think it is applical here. If it were Christ would have instituted grape juice in communion and not wine .

God did not "say eat meat in rememberance of me," nor did he give us room to change the Supper He instituted. It is His Supper. He set the table (not us). He invites us to eat and drink (not us), we are not to change His meal.

There were plenty of folks with alcohol problems back then, if there weren't than the Scriptures would not speak so often on the sinfullness of being drunk. The CHurch did not have a problem with wine in communion for almost 1900 years. Are we wiser than all the church that came before us?

We often complain about Roman Catholics taken liberties, are we not doing the same thing and using social arguments to justify them? I think we are.

Almost every church I've taken communion at has used unleavened bread. What kind of bread do you use?

The Scriptures does not say have a Merlot, pinot noir or Chablis with the Supper. Nor does it specify specifics of unleavened bread, but Wine and unleavened bread are the items that Christ has told us to "come eat" and Come drink."

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[Jon_]

Hey Bob,

WHile we disagree on this point it is not one that should cause us to distance ourselves from brethren with whom we disagree. We agree on that.

As to your point about 1 Corinthians 10:28, I don't think it is applical here. If it were Christ would have instituted grape juice in communion and not wine .

God did not "say eat meat in rememberance of me," nor did he give us room to change the Supper He instituted. It is His Supper. He set the table (not us). He invites us to eat and drink (not us), we are not to change His meal.

There were plenty of folks with alcohol problems back then, if there weren't than the Scriptures would not speak so often on the sinfullness of being drunk. The CHurch did not have a problem with wine in communion for almost 1900 years. Are we wiser than all the church that came before us?

We often complain about Roman Catholics taken liberties, are we not doing the same thing and using social arguments to justify them? I think we are.

Almost every church I've taken communion at has used unleavened bread. What kind of bread do you use?

The Scriptures does not say have a Merlot, pinot noir or Chablis with the Supper. Nor does it specify specifics of unleavened bread, but Wine and unleavened bread are the items that Christ has told us to "come eat" and Come drink."

Coram Deo,
Kenith

Yes, indeed. There is also an internal inconsistency with the argument that grape juice is an acceptable substitute for wine. Well, two. The first is that while grape juice is recommended over wine, there is no internal reason--given the assumption that communion does not necessarily include wine--why we should not deign to use the product of grapes altogether. If we say we do not use wine, there is no reason to prefer grape juice over milkshakes. In fact, I'd rather have a milkshake instead of grape juice. My Christian liberties are being infringed upon because of that. This absurd protest leads naturally into my second objection: that Christian liberty in nowise applies to the commandments of God. If one struggles with drink this is still no excuse from the proper observance of the Lord's Table. Christian liberty never nullifies the direct command of God, which command regarding communion is: "This do in remembrance of men." The "this" we should "do" is partake of unleaven bread representing the body of Christ and wine representing the blood of Christ.

I am all in favor of hearing biblical arguments that suggest the contrary. As yet, we have heard none. The only attempts thus far have appealed to Christian liberty and causing a brother to stumble, both of which are invalid in this context. As Kenith pointed out, it is God who ordained communion and the elements, not men. Therefore, we cannot offend a brother in this regard. If they are offended, they are offended of God. Their error is their own.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[lmnop9876]

i think wine should be used in communion.
but apart from that i don't, and have no intention of, drinking alcohol, i always want to have all of me there. you never know when you're going to have to drive, or when you're going to get into a really important discussion, if you don't have your wits about you, you'll either, a. make a fool out of yourself, or b. make a fool out of your religion. i remember my "SDA" (nothing against SDA, he grew up as one, but doesn't really practice it anymore, none of my rellies [beside immediate family] are Christians of any description) uncle having a discussion with my dad about the sabbath once, and he was half-inebriated, he just made the biggest idiot out of himself. i never want to be in that kind of predicament.
the only time i've ever had alcohol is in Communion, it was meant to be a "sweet, smooth flavoured wine", but it was revolting, i never want to drink the stuff again in my life.
but everyone's entitled to their Christian liberty, and i won't judge anyone about drinking alcohol.

 

[Proeliator]

No-one has answered my question about children and the wine. I would really like to know.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

No-one has answered my question about children and the wine. I would really like to know.

My children drink the wine at church and it is available to them at home if they want some for a meal. At home they always opt for Dr. Pepper or Sprite.

Sorry I skipped over that before.

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[Proeliator]

My children drink the wine at church and it is available to them at home if they want some for a meal. At home they always opt for Dr. Pepper or Sprite.

Sorry I skipped over that before.

In Christ,
Kenith

At what kind of ages though?

 

[Jon_]

No-one has answered my question about children and the wine. I would really like to know.

Children should not be prevented from the communion table if they have made a credible confession of faith. There is no problem with children consuming a taste of wine. No doubt, most of them probably don't like it, but many adults don't like it, either. And we've already discussed that. It's not illegal, either. In America and every other western nation I'm aware of the limited use of wine for religious observances is not forbidden. It's not against the law to allow children to partake, just to imbibe.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[inchristalone221]

Children should not be prevented from the communion table if they have made a credible confession of faith. There is no problem with children consuming a taste of wine. No doubt, most of them probably don't like it, but many s don't like it, either. And we've already discussed that. It's not illegal, either. In America and every other western nation I'm aware of the limited use of wine for religious observances is not . It's not against the law to allow children to partake, just to imbibe.

I agree. Also, if wine is demanded for scriptural reasons (i.e. wine and not juice is the moral will of God), then any laws made by human government would be of no meaning to us anyway.

 

[Jon_]

I agree. Also, if wine is demanded for scriptural reasons (i.e. wine and not juice is the moral will of God), then any laws made by human government would be of no meaning to us anyway.

Right. "We ought to obey God rather than men."

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

At what kind of ages though?

Most of my own children were admitted to the table at about 6 or 7.

Whatever age they come to the table they should take the cup. Eastern churches allow for paedo-communion (a now hot and potentially divisive issue in some Reformed Churches.) No matter the age he or she comes, the child should recieve the cup, if they are allowed to come to the table.

When they may come to the table is another issue all together. We insist on a credible confession, so our children come to the table generally near the age at which my own children have been invited to come eat and drink.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[AndOne]

I've got a question about the whole wine making process. Hold on tightly - this might really open up a can of worms...

Couldn't it be said that the fermentation in wine is a sign of decay? Fermentation is brought about through aging - right? Had humanity not fallen - and plunged the natural world into death, decay, and darkness - couldn't it be said that wine would therefore not age and hence alcohol would not have existed without the fall?

Something to think about.....

 

[Jon_]

I've got a question about the whole wine making process. Hold on tightly - this might really open up a can of worms...

Couldn't it be said that the fermentation in wine is a sign of decay? Fermentation is brought about through aging - right? Had humanity not fallen - and plunged the natural world into death, decay, and darkness - couldn't it be said that wine would therefore not age and hence alcohol would not have existed without the fall?

Something to think about.....

Well, let's see. Fermentation occurs when live yeast consumes the sugars present in the grape juice. As a by-product, it gives off carbon dioxide and alcohol. The yeast occurs naturally in the grapes. In fact, grapes are so rich with it that if you break the skin on a grape even while it's on the vine, it will start to ferment almost right away, as the yeast immediately goes to work on the grape's juice. This is a natural process ordained by God. Unless yeast did not exist before the fall, or unless yeast did not grow on grapes before the fall, the same fermentation process would have occured in the garden and elsewhere. To try to answer this question would appeal greatly to speculation. Not only that, but it really wouldn't profit much because it wouldn't change the circumstances. It's definitely an interesting question, though.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Proeliator]

Most of my own children were admitted to the table at about 6 or 7.

Whatever age they come to the table they should take the cup. Eastern churches allow for paedo-communion (a now hot and potentially divisive issue in some Reformed Churches.) No matter the age he or she comes, the child should recieve the cup, if they are allowed to come to the table.

When they may come to the table is another issue all together. We insist on a credible confession, so our children come to the table generally near the age at which my own children have been invited to come eat and drink.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

What do you mean by a credible confession?

 

[AndOne]

Well, let's see. Fermentation occurs when live yeast consumes the sugars present in the grape juice. As a by-product, it gives off carbon dioxide and alcohol. The yeast occurs naturally in the grapes. In fact, grapes are so rich with it that if you break the skin on a grape even while it's on the vine, it will start to ferment almost right away, as the yeast immediately goes to work on the grape's juice. This is a natural process ordained by God. Unless yeast did not exist before the fall, or unless yeast did not grow on grapes before the fall, the same fermentation process would have occured in the garden and elsewhere. To try to answer this question would appeal greatly to speculation. Not only that, but it really wouldn't profit much because it wouldn't change the circumstances. It's definitely an interesting question, though.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Yea - I don't know much about the process - I figured I'd bring it up anyway. Maybe the History Channel will do a special on the whole process - I did see the ones they did on beer and hard liquore.... You can tell the college season is over...

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

I've got a question about the whole wine making process. Hold on tightly - this might really open up a can of worms...

Couldn't it be said that the fermentation in wine is a sign of decay? Fermentation is brought about through aging - right? Had humanity not fallen - and plunged the natural world into death, decay, and darkness - couldn't it be said that wine would therefore not age and hence alcohol would not have existed without the fall?

Something to think about.....

Hey Behe,

John gave you a good answer on this. Wine is not a decay. It is as he said live yeast consume the sugars and produce CO2 and alcohol.

It happens with or without man being involved. At my old house I had some fig trees that produced very large figs. They would get so large that if not picked on time they would break open and ferment on their branches.

If I was unable ti pick tem for some reason the whole are around the tree smelled like a brewery in no time. But this was not rot. Rot is a different animal, fermentation is caused by yeast doing the job God created it to do.

And best of all god gave this fermented beverage as a blessing.

And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee. (Deut. 7:13)

Kenith

 

[inchristalone221]

Alchohol is a lot like sugar. It is one of God's blessings to man and should not be condemned. However, both should be used in moderation, as an abused blessing is more like a curse.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Alchohol is a lot like sugar. It is one of God's blessings to man and should not be condemned. However, both should be used in moderation, as an abused blessing is more like a curse.

Amen!

 

[lmnop9876]

Alchohol is a lot like sugar. It is one of God's blessings to man and should not be condemned. However, both should be used in moderation, as an abused blessing is more like a curse.

help! I love sugar (i'm not talking about sugary foods, i love those too, but actual sugar, esp. white sugar.) not so much raw, but i love eating plain white sugar. do you think there's anything bad about this? i've tried to stop, it's so bad for my teeth.