Drinking With Calvin and Luther

[Cajun Huguenot]

Drinking With Calvin and Luther:A History of Alcohol in the Church is a very good book that I can highly recommend.

Another good book is God Gave Wine: What the Bible Says about Alcohol by Kenneth Gentry.

Both books are written by Reformed Pastors. Jim West is part of the Reformed Church in the United States and Kenneth Gentry is in the PCA .

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[Proeliator]

What is your opinion on grape juice being used rather than wine during communion?

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

What is your opinion on grape juice being used rather than wine during communion?

I think it shows that 20th century evangelicals decided that they knew better than God what is good for His people. It is not biblical, and we are supposed to be Bible based in matters like this, but many evangelicals have compromised for cultural reasons that (IMHO) are not valid.

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[Knight]

Now we're splitting hairs about wine vs. grape juice???

I do not believe that the Bible forbids alcohol but I also do not see a mandate to use wine.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Now we're splitting hairs about wine vs. grape juice???

I do not believe that the Bible forbids alcohol but I also do not see a mandate to use wine.

Hello Knight,

I recommend to anyone that they do a word study in both the Old and New Covenants on the matter of wine. God gave wine for a reason. Wine is a biblical sign of God's blessings and the lack of wine is a Biblical sign of God's cursings.

If Communion was always wine before the methodist dentist, Dr. Welchs, came on the scene (and it was for almost 1900 years before him) who are we to change it to grape juice? Are we wiser than God? Was Dr. Welch wiser than all who had come before him in the church?

I don't think its hair splitting. I think it is a matter of sticking to the Word of God and not allowing human traditions to interfere with what the Scriptures have to say about the Supper given to us by Christ.

It is not a thing that I would be willing to be burnt at the stake for, but that does not mean that we are not to try to correct and stop the creeping of human traditions into our worship.

Those are my thoughts.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[Proeliator]

Hello Knight,

I recommend to anyone that they do a word study in both the Old and New Covenants on the matter of wine. God gave wine for a reason. Wine is a biblical sign of God's blessings and the lack of wine is a Biblical sign of God's cursings.

If Communion was always wine before the methodist dentist, Dr. Welchs, came on the scene (and it was for almost 1900 years before him) who are we to change it to grape juice? Are we wiser than God? Was Dr. Welch wiser than all who had come before him in the church?

I don't think its hair splitting. I think it is a matter of sticking to the Word of God and not allowing human traditions to interfere with what the Scriptures have to say about the Supper given to us by Christ.

It is not a thing that I would be willing to be burnt at the stake for, but that does not mean that we are not to try to correct and stop the creeping of human traditions into our worship.

Those are my thoughts.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

So then what about people with substance abuse issues?

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

So then what about people with substance abuse issues?

Hello Sharach,

I understand your question, but drunkenness has been a problem as long as wine has existed. God gave us wine in the Supper and there were folks with substance abuse problems then as well.


If there is a person who would abuse wine after he has taken Communion, that person will have to forgo the cup. There were people with alcohol problems for the first 1900 years of the church, before Dr. Welch figured out how to keep grape juice from fermenting. It was dealt with then and can be dealt with today.


This is not a reason to change from what God gave us to what Dr. Welch gave us. These my thoughts.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[inchristalone221]

As I see it, there are two important things to keep in mind here.

1. The substance of the Lord's Supper is not as significant as the symbolism. I will take the grape-juice instead of wine in my church to avoid offending a brother (that's my view of Christian liberty, I will surrender some freedom for the good of others).

2. The drink used in the upper room was not wine as we buy it in stores today. It was in fact far closer to grape-juice, being only mildly fermented.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

As I see it, there are two important things to keep in mind here.

1. The substance of the Lord's Supper is not as significant as the symbolism. I will take the grape-juice instead of wine in my church to avoid offending a brother (that's my view of Christian liberty, I will surrender some freedom for the good of others).

2. The drink used in the upper room was not wine as we buy it in stores today. It was in fact far closer to grape-juice, being only mildly fermented.

Hello inchristalone221,

As someone who makes wine, I can tell you that you are mistaken. Before Dr. Welch came along all wine was as alcoholic as there was sugar in the grapes it came from.

Yeast will consome all the sugars. The by products are CO2 and alcohol. THere was no way, before modern times, to stop the process.

The wine used at passover was a mixture of wine and some water (Roman Catholics and others still mix the two) but it was not "weak" wine is usually in the lower to mid teens in percent alcohol. That is pretty high (almost triple that of beer), and they did not add that much water.

If I were in a grape juice only church I too would take the cup and not cause a whoopla, but I would speak with the elders (after extensive study) and layout the facts for them. I would not break communion, nor cause a disturbance or undermine the authority of the elders. But I would work to educate my brethren as I were able.

I did this at my church. They finally put wine into the supper many years after I first brought it to their attention. I did not harp on it, but in private conversation with the elders I did mention it now and then.

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[Jon_]

Now we're splitting hairs about wine vs. grape juice???

I do not believe that the Bible forbids alcohol but I also do not see a mandate to use wine.

Except that Christ ordained communion with wine.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Jon_]

As I see it, there are two important things to keep in mind here.

1. The substance of the Lord's Supper is not as significant as the symbolism. I will take the grape-juice instead of wine in my church to avoid offending a brother (that's my view of Christian liberty, I will surrender some freedom for the good of others).

That's taking the concept of Christian liberty too far. Communion was ordained with bread and wine. If a "brother" is offended by that, then I question his convictions.

2. The drink used in the upper room was not wine as we buy it in stores today. It was in fact far closer to grape-juice, being only mildly fermented.

This is a complete lie circulated by prohibitionist evangelicals and unsuspecting hearers for over 100 years now. Kenneth has already addressed this very well. That this myth continues to live on shows how ignorant most people are of the wine-making process.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[inchristalone221]

Alright, bear in mind that this question is not argumentative or insincere. I'm trying to critically examine this issue.

How far do we take our strict adherence to the original Lord's Supper? Do we eat the meal sitting down? Do we use matza (or whatever it was they ate)?

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Unleaven bread and wine is what was served. That is what was in the meal. In these elements we partake of Christ in Faith in the Supper. I've heard of folks using cookies and Coca Cola. That is disgusting.

In CHrist,
Kenith

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

Unleaven bread and wine is what was served. That is what was in the meal. In these elements we partake of Christ in Faith in the Supper. I've heard of folks using cookies and Coca Cola. That is disgusting.

In CHrist,
Kenith

I have heard of a church using Doritos and Pepsi.

Anyway, if wine v. grape juice is splitting hairs, how can we say that there's something wrong with chips or cookies and cola? I think that once we decide that wine doesn't have to be wine, I think we're opening too many doors.

 

[inchristalone221]

Hmm...perhaps, perhaps.

Myself, I do not object to the drinking of alchohol in moderation. This is not me trying to say we should not use wine. I shall have to think about this some more...

 

[Proeliator]

Unleaven bread and wine is what was served. That is what was in the meal. In these elements we partake of Christ in Faith in the Supper.
In CHrist,
Kenith

So then what if you dont drink the wine in Communion? Does that show a lack of faith, or what do you say on that?

 

[Knight]

Except that Christ ordained communion with wine.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

And there is no Biblical mandate to use fremented grape juice in the communion supper.

You are entitled to your opinions but that is all they are.

 

[Jon_]

And there is no Biblical mandate to use fremented grape juice in the communion supper.

You are entitled to your opinions but that is all they are.

"This do in remembrance of me" (1 Cor. 11:24, 25 KJV).

"This" was the partaking of unleaven bread and wine. "This do" is clearly a commandment. I don't know what criteria you ascribe to "biblical mandate," but there is no uncertainty regarding communion. As for opinion, I've noticed you make a habit of stressing that when you disagree with another person. Try to water it down all you want, the Bible is clear. And the observance of the sacraments is not open to "opinion."

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

And there is no Biblical mandate to use fremented grape juice in the communion supper.

You are entitled to your opinions but that is all they are.

Knight,

Thank for the comment. I do have to ask one question. So you believe that all the church for almost 1,900 years used wine only because it was the opinion of men? I find that not possible to believe.

God ordained wine and Dr Welch made us able to replace wine with grape juice. Hummm. God or Dr. Welch?

I will stick with the opinion existed in all the Christ church before the Unitarians gave the American Evangelical church the Temperance Movement.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[AndOne]

I'm all for having a nice frosty beer - but this whole issue with the grape juice and wine just tells me one thing - that even after 2000 years we still can't get on the same page with communion...