Drinking? Is It ok?

artybloke · Aug 31, 2005

faith guardian said:
I have a simple rule;
One glass. Then stop.

Saves you getting drunk. OUr laws here prohibit driving even after that, and I suggest you do follow that even where you live. It's just safer.

I drink wine, and only have pint glasses... Boy do I have a good time...

TheReasoner · Aug 31, 2005

artybloke said:
I drink wine, and only have pint glasses... Boy do I have a good time...

right...
I don't really use pint glasses......

TheReasoner · Aug 31, 2005

holo said:
Nobody has ever been hurt by NOT drinking, but a lot of people have been hurt by christians who demand everybody has the same alcohol intake as them in order to be "good christians".

"Noone spreads as much darkness as he who has seen the light"

GutterRat · Aug 31, 2005

holo said:
Nobody has ever been hurt by NOT drinking, but a lot of people have been hurt by christians who demand everybody has the same alcohol intake as them in order to be "good christians".

Well...I mean...if ya can't hang...don't belly up to the bar. Ya know?

grace789 · Sep 2, 2005

ebia said:
How did they get drunk on it then?

Jesus did not get people drunk. To suggest that, is a bit mindboggling to me, because we know that Jesus is sinless, and we know that the Bible says drunkeness is a sin. It also says don't do something that might cause another person to stumble. Jesus knows that, Jesus would not get people drunk. That would mean he violated a number of scriptures, and would no longer be sinless.

TheReasoner · Sep 3, 2005

grace789 said:
Jesus did not get people drunk. To suggest that, is a bit mindboggling to me, because we know that Jesus is sinless, and we know that the Bible says drunkeness is a sin. It also says don't do something that might cause another person to stumble. Jesus knows that, Jesus would not get people drunk. That would mean he violated a number of scriptures, and would no longer be sinless.

The bible also suggests that when Jesus had made water to wine, the guests were already drunk. But this is more than a powerful indication that the wine was alcoholic.
Alcohol is not a sin to make or to drink. I believe it's a sin to get drunk on it - the bible states that you should not get drunk on it after all.

But I do drink alcoholic beverages. As previously stated I tend to stop after one glass, and never get drunk.

grace789 · Sep 3, 2005

faith guardian said:
The bible also suggests that when Jesus had made water to wine, the guests were already drunk. But this is more than a powerful indication that the wine was alcoholic.
Alcohol is not a sin to make or to drink. I believe it's a sin to get drunk on it - the bible states that you should not get drunk on it after all.

But I do drink alcoholic beverages. As previously stated I tend to stop after one glass, and never get drunk.

Think about what you're saying. You believe that Jesus gave alcohol... a lot of it, to people who were already drunk? You believe that Jesus gave MORE alcohol to people who had already done a lot of drinking? I'm not sure why any follower of Christ would believe that, because clearly, giving lots of alcohol to people who were already drunk, would be getting them even drunker, which would be a sin of course, the Bible clearly says that drunkeness is a sin. It also says to not do anything that might cause someone else to stumble.

Do you actually think Jesus would get people drunk, and violate a number of scriptures, including the one about causing people to stumble?

I don't think so.

The wine was not fermented, it was 'new wine', (unfermented), fresh, pure 'blood of the grape'.

The line you were referring to uses a word that can also mean satiated, either that or the person who said that to Jesus was simply saying it as a general statement...

"Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now." (NASB)

From reading that, it sounds like he could be merely saying "normally it happens in that way, but...."

Bottom line - Jesus did not give large amounts of alcohol to people who had already been drinking. That makes no sense, it would mean Jesus was doing something the Bible itself says not to do.

Rusticus · Sep 3, 2005

grace789 said:
.......The wine was not fermented, it was 'new wine', (unfermented), fresh, pure 'blood of the grape'.

The line you were referring to uses a word that can also mean satiated, either that or the person who said that to Jesus was simply saying it as a general statement...

"Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now." (NASB)

From reading that, it sounds like he could be merely saying "normally it happens in that way, but...."

Bottom line - Jesus did not give large amounts of alcohol to people who had already been drinking. That makes no sense, it would mean Jesus was doing something the Bible itself says not to do.....

You don't know anything about wine, do you?

Do you know anything about weddings?

Of course Jesus wants us all to go to heaven. But Jesus never said that we can't have a good time while we are on earth......

grace789 · Sep 3, 2005

Rusticus said:
You don't know anything about wine, do you?

Do you know anything about weddings?

Of course Jesus wants us all to go to heaven. But Jesus never said that we can't have a good time while we are on earth......

I never said that Jesus said we can't have a good time on earth. Of course Jesus wants us to have a good time at a wedding!

What I did say was that Jesus did not give people who were already drunk, MORE alcohol to drink. If you disagree, then go ahead, but merely saying "you don't know anything about weddings" or whatever, is not an argument.

Rusticus · Sep 3, 2005

grace789 said:
The wine was not fermented, it was 'new wine', (unfermented), fresh, pure 'blood of the grape'.

Impossible.

No-one would hold a wedding during the grape harvest, because everyone would have to work. (Harvest-time is just so busy that no-one has any social life during it.)

Grape juice, without refrigeration, starts fermenting within hours of pressing.

If you know how traditional societies function, you would not make those claims.

Why not accept what the bible says?

grace789 · Sep 3, 2005

Rusticus said:
Impossible.

No-one would hold a wedding during the grape harvest, because everyone would have to work. (Harvest-time is just so busy that no-one has any social life during it.)

Grape juice, without refrigeration, starts fermenting within hours of pressing.

If you know how traditional societies function, you would not make those claims.

Why not accept what the bible says?

Actually, I've done some looking into this, and apparently they did have a number of ways of preservation back then. But in regard to the miracle... If Jesus was able to supernaturally turn 'water to wine', then I think we can safely assume that the wine He made would not go bad quickly.

And I do accept what the Bible says. The word wine in ancient days did not (as we think of it today) ONLY have one meaning, it meant either new, unfermented juice of the grape, or fermented, alcoholic.

Also, it makes no sense that Jesus, who is sinless, gave aprox. 150 gallons of alcoholic drink to people who (supposedly) had already been drinking... when the Bible says in a number of places that drunkeness is a sin, and also says not to do something that might cause someone to stumble.

holo · Sep 3, 2005

The common christian statement seems to be "it's ok to drink, but it's a sin to get drunk."

Why is that?

Rusticus · Sep 3, 2005

grace789 said:
Actually, I've done some looking into this, and apparently they did have a number of ways of preservation back then.....

Up until not so very long ago, the two methods for preserving grapes were:
Alcohol (making wine)
De-hydration (making dried grapes, such as sultanas, currants, raisins etc.)

(OK, maybe the used some frozen grape-juice concentrate they air-freighted in from California.....)

Rusticus · Sep 3, 2005

holo said:
The common christian statement seems to be "it's ok to drink, but it's a sin to get drunk."

Why is that?

Good question.
I believe that the meaning is: "Habitual Drunkenness is Bad".
There is nothing wrong with letting your hair down every so often.

WendyV · Sep 3, 2005

Drink is just a drink, it is what you do with it and your attitude towards it that can cause problems. You should not need to drink, you should not drink untill you lose your faculties and you should stay within the law as to what age you can drink

grace789 · Sep 3, 2005

Rusticus said:
Up until not so very long ago, the two methods for preserving grapes were:
Alcohol (making wine)
De-hydration (making dried grapes, such as sultanas, currants, raisins etc.)

(OK, maybe the used some frozen grape-juice concentrate they air-freighted in from California.....)

No, that is incorrect. Do some reading on it... it's an interesting subject. And we were talking about non-alcoholic product of the vine that was being preserved. As I said, there were a number of ways. They were not dumb, just because they lived in a different time.

grace789 · Sep 3, 2005

Rusticus said:
Good question.
I believe that the meaning is: "Habitual Drunkenness is Bad".
There is nothing wrong with letting your hair down every so often.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'letting your hair down every so often'.... did you mean just drinking, or occasionally getting drunk?

grace789 · Sep 3, 2005

I gotta go.... maybe i'll be back tomorrow or sunday if anyone replied. ciao for now!

TheReasoner · Sep 3, 2005

holo said:
The common christian statement seems to be "it's ok to drink, but it's a sin to get drunk."

Why is that?

My thoughts on the matter;

It is a sin to harm yourself and others

Getting drunk harms your body and brain. Being drunk is your body's response to too much toxins in your body. There are people who after working with chamicals end up constantly intoxicated. Which is not a good thing.
Your body is a temple to the Lord, and it was made to stay pure. It is a sin to harm it.
Besides damaging your own body and brain, you are much more prone to harm others. You say things you never would sober. You are much much more liable to be unfaithful or violent when drunk.

It is not a sin to do that which builds up. Drinking a littlebit is good for your body. Hence that is not a sin. Besides the bible says that you should not get drunk. It does not say you should not taste wine though. In fact Paul encourages drinking wine at one point for a person's health.

Rusticus · Sep 3, 2005

grace789 said:
No, that is incorrect. Do some reading on it... it's an interesting subject. And we were talking about non-alcoholic product of the vine that was being preserved. As I said, there were a number of ways. They were not dumb, just because they lived in a different time.

Of course they were not dumb: Wine and dried fruit are the most noble of foods. (As a matter of fact, I am having a glass of (Australian) Shiraz right now....)

I have spent many years in the food business, traditional perservation methods being one of my specialties.

I know what I know.

If you wish to undertake mental contortions in order to fit the real world in with your reading with the Bible, that's fine with me.

Just let's say we agree to disagree.

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