Drawn by the Father...

[JM]

Are all people drawn to the Father and then we accept the gift of salvation?

 

[CrystalBrooke]

i think he comes to each and every person at least once in their life, then i think we choose to either recieve or reject the gift of salvation...if thats what you meant.

 

[JM]

i think he comes to each and every person at least once in their life, then i think we choose to either recieve or reject the gift of salvation...if thats what you meant.

Thank you, that is what I was asking. We see in John 6 that all who are drawn are raised up, do you believe that everyone (all meaning all) will get to heaven someday?

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Don't take these questions the wrong way, brothers like BT have given me plenty to think about over the last couple of weeks and I ask seeking understanding of the different views of Scripture.

SP

 

[CrystalBrooke]

i dont think everyone will go to heaven, some unfortunatly will go to hell...but in the verse youve provided i think it means that he will raise the ones who have excepted him as savior. i could be wrong, that wouldnt be anything new

 

[BT]

Joh 6:44
Verse 44. No man can come to me. This was spoken by Jesus to reprove their murmurings--"Murmur not among yourselves." They objected to his doctrine, or murmured against it, because he claimed to be greater than Moses, and because they supposed him to be a mere man, and that what he said was impossible. Jesus does not deny that these things appeared difficult, and hence he said that if any man believed, it was proof that God had inclined him. It was not to be expected that of themselves they would embrace the doctrine. If any man believed, it would be because he had been influenced by God. When we inquire what the reasons were why they did not believe, they appear to have been--

1st. Their improper regard for Moses, as if no one could be superior to him.
2nd. Their unwillingness to believe that Jesus, whom they knew to be the reputed son of a carpenter, should be superior to Moses.

3rd. The difficulty was explained by Jesus (Joh 5:40) as consisting in the opposition of their will; and (Joh 5:44) when he said that their love of honour prevented their believing on him. The difficulty in the case was not, therefore, a want of natural faculties, or of power to do their duty, but erroneous opinions, pride, obstinacy, self-conceit, and a deep-felt contempt for Jesus. The word "cannot" is often used to denote a strong and violent opposition of the will. Thus we say a man is so great a liar that he cannot speak the truth, or he is so profane that he cannot but swear. We mean by it that he is so wicked that while he has that disposition the other effects will follow, but we do not mean to say that he could not break off from the habit. Thus it is said (Ge 37:4) of the brethren of Joseph that they hated him, and could not speak peaceably to him. Thus (Mt 12:34), "How can, ye, being evil, speak good things?" See Lu 14:33; 1Sa 16:2.

Come to me. The same as believe on me.

Draw him. This word is used here, evidently, to denote such an influence from God as to secure the result, or as to incline the mind to believe; yet the manner in which this is done is not determined by the use of the word. It is used in the New Testament six times. Once it is applied to a compulsory drawing of Paul and Silas to the market-place, Ac 16:19. Twice it is used to denote the drawing of a net, Joh 21:6,11. Once to the drawing of a sword (Joh 18:10); and once in a sense similar to its use here (Joh 12:32): "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." What is its meaning here must be determined by the facts about the sinner's conversion. Cmt. on Joh 6:40. In the conversion of the sinner God enlightens the mind (Joh 6:45), he inclines the will (Ps 110:3), and he influences the soul by motives, by just views of his law, by his love, his commands, and his threatenings; by a desire of happiness, and a consciousness of danger; by the Holy Spirit applying truth to the mind, and urging him to yield himself to the Saviour. So that, while God inclines him, and will have all the glory, man yields without compulsion; the obstacles are removed, and he becomes a willing servant of God.

 

[JM]

I think it folly to say that we as man can regenerate ourselfs at will. (I'm not calling you Arminian, just like you wouldn't call me a calvinist!

)

"The Arminians, on the other hand, hold and teach conditional election on a ground of foreseen faith. This is contrary to the Truth. As long as men are unregenerate, they are in a state of unbelief, without hope in God and without faith in Christ. When saved by grace, they have faith, but that not of themselves. It is not of their own power or free-will, but the gift of God through the efficacious teaching of the Holy Spirit. Faith, therefore, cannot be the cause of election. It is the effect of it and is insured by it. 'As many as were ordained to eternal life believed' (Acts 13: 48). 'For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them' (Ephesians 2: 8-10).

Joh 6:44 - No man can come to me,.... That is, by faith, as in Joh_6:35; for otherwise they could corporeally come to him, but not spiritually; because they had neither power nor will of themselves; being dead in trespasses and sins, and impotent to everything that is spiritual: and whilst men are in a state of unregeneracy, blindness, and darkness, they see no need of coming to Christ, nor anything in him worth coming for; they are prejudiced against him, and their hearts are set on other things; and besides, coming to Christ and believing in Christ being the same thing, it is certain faith is not of a man's self, it is the gift of God, and the operation of his Spirit; and therefore efficacious grace must be exerted to enable a soul to come to Christ; which is expressed in the following words,

except the Father which hath sent me, draw him: which is not to be understood of moral persuasion, or a being persuaded and prevailed upon to come to Christ by the consideration of the mighty works which God had done to justify that he was the true Messiah, but of the internal and powerful influence of the grace of God; for this act of drawing is something distinct from, and superior to, both doctrine and miracles. The Capernaites had heard the doctrine of Christ, which was taught with authority, and had seen his miracles, which were full proofs of his being the Messiah, and yet believed not, but murmured at his person and parentage. This gave occasion to Christ to observe to them, that something more than these was necessary to their coming to him, or savingly believing in him; even the powerful and efficacious grace of the Father in drawing: and if it be considered what men in conversion are drawn off "from" and "to", from their beloved lusts and darling righteousness; to look unto, and rely upon Christ alone for salvation; from that which was before so very agreeable, to that which, previous to this work, was so very disagreeable; to what else can this be ascribed, but to unfrustrable and insuperable grace? but though this act of drawing is an act of power, yet not of force; God in drawing of unwilling, makes willing in the day of his power: he enlightens the understanding, bends the will, gives an heart of flesh, sweetly allures by the power of his grace, and engages the soul to come to Christ, and give up itself to him; he draws with the bands of love. Drawing, though it supposes power and influence, yet not always coaction and force: music draws the ear, love the heart, and pleasure the mind. "Trahit sua quemque voluptas", says the poet. The Jews have a saying (t), that the proselytes, in the days of the Messiah, shall be all of them, גרים גרורים, "proselytes drawn": that is, such as shall freely and voluntarily become proselytes, as those who are drawn by the Father are.

And I will raise him at the last day; See Gill on Joh_6:40; compare with this verse Joh_6:40.

I quoted John Gill BT, are you quoting someone?

Consider:
Usually these Arminian Baptists (and their Protestant fellow-travellers) describe the act on which they believe the new birth is predicated in certain terms which are accepted among them. They often require “a decision for Christ.” Sometimes they will speak of “praying the sinner’s prayer” or “making a decision for Christ.” Others speak of “opening your heart’s door to Jesus,” while some instruct lost people to “invite Jesus into your heart.” They may speak of “taking Jesus as your Savior” while others insist that the lost person must “take Christ as both Lord and Savior.” But whatever exact term or terms may be used, the basic concept is that there is something which a lost person must be induced to do in order to bring about his or her new birth.

I cannot see any essential difference between baptismal regeneration decisional regeneration (requiring a decision in order to bring about the new birth). Both are fundamentally the same in that they require an act on the part of a spiritually dead sinner in order for God to make that sinner alive spiritually. http://members.aol.com/libcfl2/invite.htm

 

[BT]

I quoted John Gill BT, are you quoting someone?

Yes sorry I usually remember to add the reference. That was a cut and paste from

Albert Barnes' Notes on the New Testament.

 

[BT]

I see a difference in Baptismal regeneration.... (especially when the act is done to a person who is unaware, such as a baby...), but the spiritually dead are not unable

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mark 5:36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. (this is a good one, because apparently the evil one can deceive one who otherwise would believe and through belief be saved).

etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

A very good Pastor friend of mine said to me recently, "I believe in the Sovereignty of God and the free will of man. I believe that those views can co-exist because scripture teaches this."

Anyway brother sorry to interject on your thread....

 

[JM]

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If no one can come unless the Father draws them, does the Father draw all men? I say no.

If you say yes, God draws all men, then you must (using logic) believe that God will raise all men up on the last day.

SP

PS: What do you think of my cartoon?

 

[BT]

Does the Father draw all men? No. So who does He draw? Those who have heard.

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

John 6:44 still does not prove election to damnation, or election to salvation. Rather it speaks of the effectual conviction of the Spirit. The Jews were being obstinate. They needed to understand that Christ and the Father are One and that to turn to Christ is to please the Father, not forsake Him. Just 4 verses up (John 6:40) Jesus says, "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." Belief on the part of the sinner is mandatory and an act of will... This verse does not show total inability or undeniable grace either. It doesn't say that those who are drawn are automatically saved, or must be saved. I don't think this passage has anything to do with salvation contextually. This shows the urgency of evangelism.

PS. I love that cartoon..it's so... right.

 

[JM]

Does the Father draw all men? No. So who does He draw? Those who have heard.

And how does one hear the Gospel? They are drawn by the Father, Acts 16, Lydia's heart was opened by God. Why does one accept salvation and another refuses the offer?

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

God uses the preaching of the Gospel to regenerate the unsaved.

John 6:44 still does not prove election to damnation, or election to salvation. Rather it speaks of the effectual conviction of the Spirit. The Jews were being obstinate. They needed to understand that Christ and the Father are One and that to turn to Christ is to please the Father, not forsake Him. Just 4 verses up (John 6:40) Jesus says, "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." Belief on the part of the sinner is mandatory and an act of will... This verse does not show total inability or undeniable grace either. It doesn't say that those who are drawn are automatically saved, or must be saved. I don't think this passage has anything to do with salvation contextually. This shows the urgency of evangelism.

PS. I love that cartoon..it's so... right.

Ephesians 1:5-6: "…he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

Ephesians 1:11-12: "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."


Two points: one, we will be conformed to the likeness of Jesus Christ, and two,we will be adopted as God's children, and if we are God's children according to Romans 8:17, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ. We are also predestined to good works, Ephesians 2:10 tells us that, "…we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."


Does Jesus pray that all men come to Him? No.


Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

I'm quoting here:

[font=&quot]THERE ARE BUT TWO KINDS OF PEOPLE[/font]

• [font=&quot]There are those born of the flesh (lost) and those born of the Spirit (saved) John 3:3-8.[/font]
• [font=&quot]The natural man (lost) and the spiritual man (saved) 1 Cor. 2:14-15.[/font]
• [font=&quot]People are either like an evil tree (lost) or like a good tree (saved) Luke 6:43-45.[/font]
• [font=&quot]There are people who walk according to the flesh (lost) or who walk according to the Spirit (saved) Romans 8:5-8.[/font]

[font=&quot] [/font]

[font=&quot]THERE ARE BUT TWO KINDS OF FRUIT[/font]

• [font=&quot]A person’s nature determines what kind of fruit he will produce (Lu. 6:43-44).[/font]
• [font=&quot]A person must become a “good tree” before he can believe and obey the Lord.[/font]
• [font=&quot]Those in the flesh are totally incapable of pleasing the Lord (Rom. 8:5). [/font]

[font=&quot] [/font]

[font=&quot]QUESTION: “If a natural man cannot even exercise faith and repentance in order to change into a spiritual man, how can he ever be changed? How is one born again?”[/font]

 

[BT]

I'll answer tomorrow brother.. right now I'm whipped. I have to finish a paper on "The Existence of Satan" and I don't know if I have the mental wherewithal to finish it tonight even. So tomorrow when I get a chance I'll come by and give you an answer.

 

[JM]

I'll answer tomorrow brother.. right now I'm whipped. I have to finish a paper on "The Existence of Satan" and I don't know if I have the mental wherewithal to finish it tonight even. So tomorrow when I get a chance I'll come by and give you an answer.

BT no need man, focus on what you need to focus on...don't let me distract you. I must make you feel like you're banging your head against a brick wall, anyways.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Thank you, that is what I was asking. We see in John 6 that all who are drawn are raised up, do you believe that everyone (all meaning all) will get to heaven someday?

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Don't take these questions the wrong way, brothers like BT have given me plenty to think about over the last couple of weeks and I ask seeking understanding of the different views of Scripture.

SP

It does not say that all who are drawn by the Father are raised up in the last day. It says that all that come to Him, having been drawn by the Father, are raised up in the last day.

Two things - drawn by God. Come to Jesus.

I beleive that men are drawn but not all who are drawn come to Him.

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
WE have to beleive.

 

[Tractor1]

Are all people drawn to the Father and then we accept the gift of salvation?

There is a general call given to all who hear the gospel . In this sense Christ said, "I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners" (Matt.9:13), and "if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me" (John 12:32). But, this call is not always heeded, as demonstrated by the fact that Christ also said, "For many are called, but few are chosen" (Matt. 22:14). I do believe there is a divine drawing that is not resisted and is termed an "effecacious call" (John 6:44). I believe God produces upon those who will make up the Church through an influence which assures their reception of Christ as Savior.

In Christ,
Tracey