I agree. It has gone much more in-depth and been very expansive....as opposed to introducing things out of nowhere.This is the first time T. has really focused on mythology and theology. It was always some philosophy implied and even explicit, but this Super is rich in "mytheology" since the beginning.
I didn't take you as snarky at all and I appreciate the question. Again, where there are limitations in awareness of history and no desire to go in-depth step by step, I expect for there to be some kind of issue. Henotheism and Monolatry are things you may see thrown out as descriptions (although neither are what I adhere to) when others don't know the concept of the Divine Council. Michael Heiser is with Logos Bible Software and his skills in the field of Near Eastern culture are nothing to play with, so he is very prominent within the Evangelical World.While, from my cursory understanding of the Bible, it seems to make sense I suspect it runs against the sensibilities who have developed their own understanding Christian cosmology and would be thrown out as heresy. I'm not trying to be snarky or anything, I am legitimately curious. I think in my former Roman Catholic church it would attract some stares and debate but probably be considered but I think in the Wesleyan Pentecostal church it would be thrown out as "pagan" or "dangerous heresy", which I don't agree with in either case.
I STILL have people trip on me when saying it would not be outside of the realm of scripture to imagine that SPIRITUAL WARFARE could also involve fighting very much on the level of DBZ, especially with seeing how intense things can be.While, from my cursory understanding of the Bible, it seems to make sense I suspect it runs against the sensibilities who have developed their own understanding Christian cosmology and would be thrown out as heresy. I'm not trying to be snarky or anything, I am legitimately curious. I think in my former Roman Catholic church it would attract some stares and debate but probably be considered but I think in the Wesleyan Pentecostal church it would be thrown out as "pagan" or "dangerous heresy", which I don't agree with in either case.
That specific movie was very interesting, especially as it concerns the way that there were levels of authority for differing species/creatures and one could not violate the rules of another. The concept of the Kais was interesting since they could not intervene in the work of a God of Destruction (or an Angel of Death, for another description) and yet they could create life - and only watched while giving wisdom and hoping creatures with free will respond in a certain way.This is the first time T. has really focused on mythology and theology. It was always some philosophy implied and even explicit, but this Super is rich in "mytheology" since the beginning.
The battle of the gods movie (and saga) immediately introduced DB to a new class of show and characters. As the song says, "kami ni idomu basho" - gonna take the challenge of the gods.
There are very clear examples, I think, of good/bad - and the gray is present, but it isn't common. I saw that with Zamasu who actually had a very GOOD point when it came to showing how mortals were constantly going toward the bad - but he lost sight and became corrupt when choosing to ignore the fact that he could become exactly what he was against (i.e. violent, crazy, etc.). When he decided to wipe out all of the gods in his timeline to make his goals possible, it was clear he was on the bad side of things and was too self-absorbed. Of course, I blame his Gowasu for that since he was not the best instructor when he only showed Zamasu the WORST that mortals could offer. Everything he did at that point of training skewed things a lot for someone already deeply impacted. I remember where Gowasu kept doing things that didn't help his case about helping humans at all since he showed Zamasu the Super Dragon Balls and Goku with god ki - AND took him to the future to show the fate of the world, only for it to be revealed to Zamasu that it was only chaotic in the end. No way Gowasu really thought he could make Zamasu good by showing him this stuff. And even AFTER he did that, he let Zamasu stay in leadership/training when he needed to find a new pupil - even staying with Zamasu after he violated the law of his order with not killing. Zamasu was concerned for justice/order and given way too much fuel for him to stop going the direction he did. Teaching him how to time-travel as well when he already violated the basics.....I said "Gowasu needs to be fired." It'd be WAY too naive by giving Zamasu all this knowledge when he's clearly not ready. ...but in the end, Gowasu was a very bad teacher.Now, since we are dealing with deities, good and bad will always be skewed, and gray. Zamasu is a perfect example of that; I am sort of a misanthrope, and at times I can see myself understanding his ridiculous logic. plus the repetitive fact that he is, in fact, a god, and humans do continue to defy them.
We, the audience, think it is cute to see the gang go back and forth in time despite Whis and Beerus telling them it is forbidden for even the gods. But, if this was the real world (like it is for Zamasu) then this is a serious crime, and sin.
Yep - the way they tied in this arc with the Future Trunks from the Cell Saga was perfect. Trunks is someone who had to deal with the effects of his sin ...and not letting things play out with Goku originally dying before he got medicine from the future. What surprised Zamasu with the corruption of mortals also involved being told by Zamasu that new time rings were made, indicating that someone went back in time to change something even when it was forbidden. So in essence, he felt justified to stop mortals from getting out of order further...And, Black was right when he said if it wasn't for Trunks going back the first time, "Black" wouldn't exist, because Goku wouldn't be alive today to challenge Zamasu like he did etc...
Zeno is nothing to play with and I'm glad he got put in check in the end.And Zamasu represents a Lucifer type creature - a prodigy, but prideful thinking he can be a better god than God. He gets too big for his pants getting a kick out of judging "mortals," until Zeno has to destroy him.
I felt they did an awesome job with Vegeta in this new arc and building him up further for something wild...I want to see Vegeta have a prolonged, and sizable advantage over Goku for once (not the time chamber boost only to have Goku Kamehameha match merged Zamasu's "Divine Judgment" or whatever it is called.) I don't know why T. hates Vegeta so much (but he does... he has said so.) But, there is about a 50%/50% fan base for Goku and Co., and Vegeta. So, he should do Vegeta right.
True enough...I see he is focusing more on Vegeta developing as a father, and his family. That is a start. I want him to have the power too. After all, he is the only one who actually respectfully addresses Whis and Beerus (Goku certainly doesnt.)
I was picking that up as well and wondering why something just didn't sit right with meRumor has it that Daishinkan (High Priest) will actually be a "lucifer" character for the next arc.
It seems there are insinuations that his intentions may be shady...
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It should definitely be interesting and I have the same impression with how things will play out with some very shady characters being revealed.I have heard this about Vados, and even seen it with her; not so much Whis. Daishinkan is top 5 in DB universe ever, and in the manga, he is THE top next to Zeno sama.
Next arc will be a Universal Survival arc, where losing universes will be wiped out of existence! (According to rumor, the "survival" part was an idea of Daishinkan.)
Where did you go to get that art? Would LOVE to see it for myself and follow upHmm...
There is even teaser art of Daishinkan destroying Zeno's attendants with a single ki blast while Zeno looks genuinely shocked.
But, there is also teaser art of SSGSS3 Goku about to own Beerus with his finger while Beerus begs.
I'd disagree, as the universe STILL has rules/regulations but what we're seeing is the revelation of what happens "behind the curtain" (so to speak) when even gods violate the rules and try to get away with it. Even Zeno was unaware of what ZAMASU was doing in the future - but once he became aware, he shut him down quick. So there's a degree of beings kept in the dark as those in levels under them try to do political intrigue and uprisings. The focus for Zamasu was a Coup d'étatWe will see. As I said before, this is not black and white, good and evil anymore. We now have gods doing things they are entitled to - that we mortals may see as unsavory.
I agree!I expect the universal arc to be at least 40 episodes, or it will be rushed IMO. The 6/7 tournament arc was 15 episodes itself, and that felt rushed. 40 episodes will allow us to get to know a small bit about the fighters, other universes, and especially the other gods and angels
I think they'll definitely take time with this series.I expect the universal arc to be at least 40 episodes, or it will be rushed IMO. The 6/7 tournament arc was 15 episodes itself, and that felt rushed. 40 episodes will allow us to get to know a small bit about the fighters, other universes, and especially the other gods and angels.
That makes sense. To be clear, in the event it may have been missed before, I grew up in the Pentecostal/Charismatic world and thus I know fully where you're coming from (and for reference, one can go here and here ). The Church background I was with was within the Evangelical world... It is a very intricate and complicated world - and in many places, it's really about emotionalism more so than substance. Just because someone laid hands on another doesn't mean that something automatically happened (especially when/if the focus went away for those laying on hands if their character was off) - and just because someone didn't scream or shout did not mean they were automatically lacking a spiritual awareness - or that maturity was somehow present. I was glad to grow up around both sides (healthy and unhealthy) and be informed on what to look out for since so much of what happened was about theatrics rather than focusing on real relationship with Christ. I would classify myself among those who were Charismatic Intellectuals (with others like Dr. Amos Yong or Professor Sam Storms being people I looked up to) - and many others, due to only seeing emotionalism masked as spiritual experiences, ended up walking away from the Faith. I don't blame them - especially seeing many others who ended up becoming part of a Charismatic Ghetto where they have no awareness of the world around them AND so many of them being influenced by Americanism/Patriotic forms of Christianity which were essentially Nationalism. There were moments talking to some where it seemed rather evident that there was not a willingness to engage in things if it was outside of Charismatic experience - and there's a reason why many find thems
The Early Church had a very high awareness of the spiritual world around them and I love the Early Church for its faithfulness to scholarship, especially within Alexandrian tradition. They knew how to address issues of esoteric thought, especially when it came to the Occult expressed via Gnosticism. Of course, to be clear, not all things labeled "Gnostic" were automatically condemned within the Early Church - for the history of Christianity in Egypt, in example, can't be understood without mentioning the Egyptian Gnostics, concentrated in Upper Egypt and made popular by discoveries in Nag Hammadi...when studying the history of the Church of Alexandria, it is interesting to consider that there are perfect Orthodox Christian forms of gnosticism. - something to keep in mind with the dynamic of language.
It'd be embraced, actually, as it is not a very difficult concept to understand. Of course, where there's a lack of awareness on church history and avoidance of the scriptures at several points, some may seemed shocked - and it takes time for others to become familiar.
I can understand that. As this forum is about discussion of world religions or the reasons we adhere to them, I'm a pretty open book on issues such as this. But of course, anything that may be more personal or deeply held I'm always good discussing offline/in other forums.....FB being one of the main places I do a lot of convo.
Other scholars such as the late Dr. Richard Twiss will be folks I'm forever thankful for when he spoke against these issues. For real. From a Native American (Lakota) perspective, he broke things down significantly and it was very much appreciated - and his book "Rescuing Theology from the Cowboys" did an amazing job tackling the issue you're noting, especially in regards to concepts like the Doctrine of Discovery, U.S policy and the ways that Missionaries were often hijacked for political agendas while those (Christians as well) who fought for Indigenous People ended up being harmed because they brought focus back to the Founders.
On the moral rules, one would one to again go back to seeing what the Founder emphasized (Christ) since I am not certain of what moral rules you're speaking of - and if it means that there can be NO restrictions on things, that goes back to seeing what the benefit is in not accepting something. That can be discussed more in-depth in another thread, of course...but with that said, Overall, I think what you're describing in part is AMERICAN Christianity ....or Patriotic Christianity and forms of Protestant thought that did not accept scholarship or intellectual discussion (similar to what has happened in Islamic thought). A founder of a movement isn't the same as a religion built around him - nor does one strain speak for all or the original. I have issue with much of what passes for Christianity today when seeing how many don't really know what it's about when seeing where politics has hijacked much of it.
It's similar to Hip Hop. Conscious/Social Hip Hop was what Hip Hop was meant to be, but commercialization is what transformed Hip Hop culture in the radio/media to be something radically different and harmful when celebrating dehumanization of women, violence, hustling, etc. And when people still do Social Hip Hop, it's called "Underground" Hip Hop instead of Hip Hop - and the other stuff called "trash/garbage rap" for the sake of selling records instead of making REAL music.
And on what you're saying, it ties in with the thread because I've seen several times when others don't get exposure to Christianity and it causes them to take lesser forms of it in place of seeing the founder (Christ) or the background He grew up in (Judaic/Near Eastern culture) - thus leading them to have a very low awareness of the cosmology that Hebrews were exposed to. Thus, they come away thinking Christianity in caricature terms - as if there's no mystery or wonder. I watch a show like Dragon Ball and see others fascinated - but then see many think of Christianity in very boring terms...AND not even realize how epic it really is (i.e. different levels of Heavens, differing levels of authority, Cosmic Story, etc.).
Fascinating, as I grew up believing such things and it was never seen as opposite of Scripture. King Saul spoke to the Spirit of Samuel the Prophet (although Samuel complained of being awoken from his rest) and the dead are not simply floating around somewhere. It's all over the scriptures, including Matthew 14 where the disciples thought Jesus was a Ghost when he came to them walking on water - and later, after He resurrected, he had to alert them that he was not a Spirit/Ghost since that was an accepted thought in that time (if seeing Luke 24:37). N.T Wright did an excellent job covering that in his work on the life of Christ.....called "The Challenge of Jesus: Rediscovering Who Jesus Was and Is
And for other places where discussion occurred on that:
Within my own background, we were taught that all that the Scriptures show all we need to know about Christianity when it comes to essentials. However, Tradition was also a means of interpreting the Scriptures (since Tradition gave Scripture to us - another conversation in/of itself). But what you do see are issues of LEVELS on a concept.
- Ghosts, God and Supernatural: How many kinds of spirits existed in the OT/NT Judaism?
- Discerning the Dead, Part 1
- Discerning the Dead, Part 3
And it's the same thing with reincarnation. One may not believe in the concept of living another life before this one - but they do accept the idea of God being outside of time and us being able to connect to Eternity (where all things have already happened) and get 'flashbacks" to moments like we lived them out before. Deja Vu comes to mind - and of course, prophesy on the future comes to mind as well. We also see the issue of Jesus coming in the Spirit of Elijah and having the same kind of Spirit - so it does get interesting. For others to consider, one can also consider the following from this brother who is a Messianic Jew within Catholicism:
There's also here:
- A Catholic Jew Pontificates: Reincarnation and Judaism
- A Catholic Jew Pontificates: Reincarnation and Reb Abraham Chazan
Brother Michael Heiser also did an excellent teaching on the subject as it concerns Hellenization with Judaism and the concepts of renicarnation developing..as seen in his article called DID JESUS ALLOW FOR REINCARNATION? consists of several branches: Orthodox (traditional), Chassidic Judaism (Orthodox with influences from eastern mysticism, including belief in reincarnation -) is where the thought of reincrnation seems to come from. As one of my good friends Contra (Jewish Christian) said best, "I am a firm believer that reincarnation came into Judaism via eastern philosophy and gnosticism, which is why so many Jews have rejected it in the past. It is becoming trendy now through the influence of the Kabbalists and the easy-to-swallow religionism of the world." Reincarnation is something appealing to others who want to have a second chance in life when they feel they made mistakes in this one - and with Hindu thought, WHEN it comes to the concept of Death/Rebirth (which is central to shows like Avatar: The Last Airbender and further explored in Avatar: The Legend of Korra with Raava the Light Spirit), there are some things that make sense with the way that the Spiritual can be reconnected through family lines - I do personally believe in things like memories being passed down genetically and a degree of identity given to members in a family. .....Blessings and Curses repeated in generations - and as I believe in the Intercession of the Saints and I believe the Saints are STILL with us just as the other Avatars were with Aang, in that sense, reincarnation of something makes sense.
Within Christianity, when it comes to things such as communion with the saints, it'd seem to be a good middle-groundway of reaching those who already are open to the concept of ancestor worship AND the awareness of the saints still being present with us. In the show "Avatar" (that was referenced earlier), this was something that was often discussed when it came to previous lives/individuals still being available for giving wisdom to the hero in the show. Of course, that concept was connected with the subject of reincarnation
With the issue of iconagraphy, where pictures of previous saints that have already gone before us (including those in Hebrews 11/Hebrews 11:11 with the Hall of Faith) are placed up....with direction sought from them....is truly a troublesome view for many.
For in the view of Eastern Thought, those who've gone ahead of us are not merely elsewhere in the "Great Beyond"--but very much aware of what is happening down below. Kind of like what happens for many when Grandma died and loved ones--whether those who were believers inspired by her example to continue walking godly or those who were not saved and yet were won to the Lord by her actions/chose to dedicate their lives to Christ--- were wondering of the woman who kept the family together in Christ think "I know that Grandma is looking down upon me right now...and I hope she's proud". It's the reality that the saints are with us in spiritual connection:
By no means am I saying, by the way, that it's appropiate for others to act as if they can have conversations with Grandma as with what often happens when a family member dies and they say that they're still in the house and every morning they wake up they still hear that the tea pot's whistling every morning before church just like it was when she was alive/making tea for everyone.Hebrews 12:1
[ God Disciplines His Sons ] Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.
Hebrews 12
But For anyone who has studied the book of Hebrews fully, the deceased individuals of Hebrews 11 is something I keep in mind when it comes to identifying who the "witnesses" are that're looking on toward us. What comes to my mind is not only the thought of others whose past lives of faith encourage myself to do the same and have given godly examples to follow/give motivation.....but it is also the thought of actually having a crowd up in Heaven made of heavenly saints cheering me on actively that captivates my mind.
But that is consistent with the example of Christ, as he also was seen speaking to those who were gone when it came to His mission. God allowed him a Heavenly visitation from the Saints Moses and Elijah (whom others said he came in the Spirit of) - and thus, in that system of thought, trying to have reincarnation of a past life is not a logical understanding of things.
So there is a level of acceptance to ideas that can only occur when it's consistent with the ideology of the system it exists within.
I have had many conversations with others in the world of anime when it comes to ideas outside of what's found in Ancient Christianity - or Ancient Judaism. I have to let others know with shows like DBZ or Dragon Ball that just because a mythological idea makes you think doesn't mean that it automatically becomes something to pass. It is meant to give thought to why we do things.
I was picking that up as well and wondering why something just didn't sit right with me
It should definitely be interesting and I have the same impression with how things will play out with some very shady characters being revealed.
Where did you go to get that art? Would LOVE to see it for myself and follow up
I'd disagree, as the universe STILL has rules/regulations but what we're seeing is the revelation of what happens "behind the curtain" (so to speak) when even gods violate the rules and try to get away with it. Even Zeno was unaware of what ZAMASU was doing in the future - but once he became aware, he shut him down quick. So there's a degree of beings kept in the dark as those in levels under them try to do political intrigue and uprisings. The focus for Zamasu was a Coup d'état
And in this universe, the Supreme God is not all-knowing....so things are very fluid and accountability has to be fought for. There are others who are CLEARLY EVIL and clearly GOOD and others who become corrupted. Even Beerus noted this when telling others at the end of Trunks's saga that they kept looking to the gods way too much for solutions instead of working things out themselves. And we may see more of that if further upheavel occurs.
I liken it to what was discussed in scripture when Fallen Angels went into business for themselves and sought to make mortals follow them, distracting from God Almighty ....this is where Greek Mythology, Egyptian Mythology and many other things developed that took focus away from showing who God was since they wanted to do their own system - until Christ came to shut that all down
I agree!
I think they'll definitely take time with this series.
Till then, I am also glad for the many places doing Visual Journalism in order to help make more sense of the universe that Dragon Ball is - and showing the evolution of the differing creatures within it.
You never know and he may end up with a lot of surprises. Obviously, the new arc is titled “The Universe Survival Arc" - and with Zen-Oh Sama, who is the king of all the universes, organizing a tournament between the universe’s best fighters...it should be rough if what we've seen so far with the previous arcs are any indicator of where things are at.When he was so accommodating of Goku, while everyone including Whis is worried, I thought either he is not who he seems, or he is so powerful he can be casual.
Seems the latter is right. But, I still think he is a "curious" entity. It would be interesting if he is not quite as holy as we think, but then the suspended halo makes me think he earned his spot (it isn't like Potra that you can take off.)
Good point.There has to be at least one god measurably stronger than Beerus, and likewise one angel stronger than Whis (not like Vados being a bit stronger, or Beerus being stronger than Champa.) And, likely s/he will be not so nice. So, it would be interesting if, say, Vegeta, Goku, or even 17/18/Gohan/Buu/Piccolo pulls out a clutch win and knocks the universe(s) out of the tournament with the strong[est] god(s). How would those gods react, especially if they are strong?
I don't recall seeing at any point where Cabba was somehow stronger than Vegeta at any point since Vegeta beat him very badly and his power levels were severely sub-par. Botamo is not one I recall to be weaker than Buu at all...It is my theory that the universe gods of destruction are inversely related to the potential of its strongest fighters. In 6/7, it shows by sagas. For example Champa is weaker than Beerus. But,
Botamo is the stronger Buu of universe 6
Final Frost is stronger than Final Frieza, and likely Piccolo
Magetta is stronger than the androids. (SSJ Vegeta final flash on Magetta was a "righting" of Super Vegeta failing final flash on Perfect Cell.)
Cabe/Cabba (Cabbage) is way beyond saiyan saga saiyans. His SSJ is likely stronger than Gohan's SSJ2. His base is as strong as base Vegeta - who is much more powerful than Final Frieza.
It doesn't say anywhere that HIT was stronger than Broly or Turles. He is faster because of freezing time - but strength is a different matter. He's an asssanian, not a warrior. So some things would be stretching very much without real evidence.And Hitto/Hit is stronger than any of the Movie or "legendary" saiyans (he represents Turles, Broly, Bio-Broly and the likes, I think.) He is stronger than SSB + KK×10. Hit may actually be able to go toe to toe with Champa. And i
In the Dragon Ball world, there's not really entitlements reserved for God overall. Only so much is forbidden...I agree with you here. I meant entitlement like actual entitlements reserved for God's (not action with no accountability.)
That's consistent in that universe for how having all power doesn't equate to all-knowing.But I will say the lack of an omniscience bothers me in Zeno. I get he is omnipotent but...
Pretty much..For what it is worth, ToriBot is the most powerful entity in DB universe. Even more powerful than Zeno. Clearly ToriBot is Akira Toriyama.
That was one of the themes, in addition to the fact of realizing who is creating whom...and the theme of Dragon Ball Super (as well as Z) WITH EVEN mortals being able to challenge gods since it's not just about power. It's also about position...and not all levels are up for grabs. Zeno is not on the same level as any of the lower gods - but if angels can fall from grace and still be powerful/worthy of respect (Jude 1, II Peter 2), then something has to be said about how it really isn't marginalization to say that gods lacking self-control/being a threat can be threatened by others.So, I guess the sum of "omni" powers belong to ToriBot. Still like you said, that means accountability and even justice has to be fought for. It marginalize the gods to me. Anyone can be super powerful; Goku and Vegeta are super powerful. What, then, beyond technique separates them from the gods? Maybe that is a major underlying theme in the entire Super franchise.
Who knows...40+ episodes, and I wouldn't mind a movie - canon or non canon - going into more detail about select universes/gods/fighters similar to Battle of the Gods. If Akira pays attention to his fanbase, he could have a decent spin-off.
Good point with the "Ma" aspect...Two more things:
1. On Buu, and the "Majin," you are right, and it is unfortunate they didn't expand on the "majin" besides it meaning "evil." "Ma" is evil/demon, and "jin" is person. Zamasu could be described as a "Makaioshin," for example. So, the majins were demons, like the frost/cold demon race (frieza, cooler, etc.) Interestingly, majin can also mean magical - the ether from which Buu was born (and others.)
Hopefully that gets developed further with the Killer Instinct issue...2. I think - judging by the atmosphere of the DBS community - we missed a HUGE revelation about Goku's power!
Goku, in the latest episode was distracted because he could sense someone was after his life. It was, of course, Hit.
But, he sensed someone was specifically after his life.
This is sensing killer instinct! It seems the training Vegeta has yet to reach has gotten Goku even closer to God status. Now, like Beerus and Whis, Goku can sense killer instinct in individuals. We heard of the rarity and technique of this when only Beerus and Whis sensed Zamasu''s killer instinct (not even Supreme Kai could.) So, it will be interesting to see if/when Vegeta finishes his sets and trains like Whis trained Goku.
!!!
Agreed...Ah, and while Beerus was worried about Goku slipping, Whis was smiling and carefree. I think/hope he sees a potential to be unlocked in Vegeta that may skyrocket him, and set him way past Goku for a couple of sagas.
HOPING Vegeta is honored in this new series...and if he surprasses Goku and gets to be the one who kills the enemy, that would be amazing.Vegeta is the only Z-fighter that hasn't had their potential unlocked. Goku worked with King Kai, as did the other Z-fighters. Killin got his potential unlocked by Guru, Piccolo is three nameks. Gohan worked with Old Kai...
Vegeta is literally the only one who has worked with the sweat of his brow to gain his strength (no unlocks,) which is ironic considering he is a prince.
Appreciate the sentiment, as I am a visual learner and I always appreciate visuals in the form of charts when mapping out things.I haven't said anything, but I really like and appreciate the media you posted.
Makes sense. I can definitely understand how a lack of historyThe early church was not something that I learned about growing up in my religious background; in Catholicism class was a matter of learning correct Catholic doctrine and Canon Law and in my Protestant background there was really no historical approach at all, not even with regard to the Reformation. I think that it is in a small way where the anti-intellectualism shows itself. Most of the Wesleyan Pentecostals didn't know even their own church's history. I will need to take some time after the new year and read up on some of the basics of the early church but its a very unfamiliar area for me.
Not a problem..I do remember reading your post about your background, it was a very illuminating read. Thanks for sharing.
Understandable...I still have a pretty negative kneejerk reaction to that type of Protestantism I was exposed to in high school.
I tend to say, despite any negative sentiments I have to places in my past, that it doesn't matter what others are doing in the negative when you're trying to find the positive or correct application of something and live that out. People go for the fake when they don't know what the real is all about. With the current political world and seeing what many (Specifically on the Religious Right) gave a pass to while other Evangelicals and others in Christendom consistently kept calling out and saying "Quit excusing the same kind of behaviors you condemned in other leaders when they weren't with your party" or they noted how trying to give a pass toward racism/bigotry in those openly speaking out while saying they are "Christians" (false) ....I have been at war many times with others. Telling my friends who are not Christians that I am sorry for the poor representation of others in the name of Christ/God and telling those doing the negative actions that they don't represent Christ in trying to push an agenda of white nationalism. But that's another discussion.To be sure, there were lots of great folks apart of those churches but it simply didn't sit well with me. It constructed the narrative in my mind that I was not a good fit for Christianity because I thought "hey these guys are so Nationalistic and anti-Science and anti-Intellectual they don't even know the history of the Bible or the Christian history or even the reformer's history". It made it hard to take it all very seriously. There's still a tinge of that which is hard to get rid of in adulthood especially with regard to what is playing out in the political world and on social media, which makes it a thousand times more amplified.
Lacking a historical approach does lead to a lot of issues - and of course, I'd encourage you to look into the history of the Early Church....as much as you can.The early church [including the Divine Council idea] was not something that I learned about growing up in my religious background; in Catholicism class was a matter of learning correct Catholic doctrine and Canon Law and in my Protestant background there was really no historical approach at all, not even with regard to the Reformation. I think that it is in a small way where the anti-intellectualism shows itself. Most of the Wesleyan Pentecostals didn't know even their own church's history. I will need to take some time after the new year and read up on some of the basics of the early church but its a very unfamiliar area for me.
Hit me up via PM and I'll get back with you A.S.A.PIf you would like to chat on FB I am not opposed to that; I could send you my information in a PM. Or we could use CF's messaging system too. Whatever you prefer.
It's definitely worth investigatingI will add this book to my (dangerously long) Amazon wishlist. Thanks for the recommendation. It might clear up some misgivings I have about Christianity as a "tool of cultural indoctrination" as especially seen in American and European colonial policy.
Not a problem. I may make a thread about it in the future....Makes sense. I think this would be a great topic for private discussion because I think it would be pretty off topic from the thread.
I don't think there's anything wrong with noting that the universe seen in boring terms is not acceptable. ...especially when we're told to be fascinated by it.This is a fantastic point and expresses a thought that I've had in my head for more years than I can count but I can finally put it into words: because church was always presented as a chore (even parents admitted it felt like a chore) I always saw church as a boring thing that adults did. This thought continued out of Catholicism and into Protestantism where they were very picky about cosmology and anything that didn't sound like "American Christianity" which was a radically simplified system. I know it sounds superficial but felt so boring to think of the universe that way. That such an omnipotent being would reduce everything to such simplicity didn't make any sense to me. I could very well see such portrayals as you describe (DBZ, spirit wars etc) as happening in the Christian cosmology. That always felt right to me, but I kept it to myself because I was afraid that I would be written off as a weirdo heretic. Fascinating.
Part of this is what first attracted me to the occult of which Judaism and Christianity have contributed a great rich history to. I think specific of the Lesser Key of Solomon and the Goetia which describe a meticulous hierarchy of angels and demons that can be recognized in ritual. It is these kind of ideas coupled with the imagery of the figurative writing of the Divine Comedy which sort of tied a more complete picture of Christian cosmology together for me. Coupling that with the idea of spirit worlds and power levels and all manners of power and magic it seemed to click a lot for me and honestly it helped me frame Christ as superior to it all. Growing up that was incredibly empowering to my faith.
Unfortunately it unraveled when most other Christians outright rejected the idea except my best friend (to this day) so that's another reason I am so interested in seeing your thoughts on these ideas, I feel they are fundamentally related to my view of the metaphysical world.
I've generally had an affinity towards most Animistic spirituality (which I realize is hardly exclusive to Asia) for a long time now. I'm not sure what draws me to it, I think the lack of a rigid structure and restrictive rules maybe but it is pretty central to certain cultures and isn't wide open.Gxg (G²);64984435 said:For myself, when seeing the Animistic spirituality aspect, I couldn't help but be reminded on Christianity and the ways others for it have addressed.....for many are not aware of the ways that Christ addresses Folk Religions..
And in the event you've not heard of it, Christian Animism is something many have noted over the years more and more.... as seen in Defining an Animistic Worldview : The Missiology Homepage and Animism: The Default Religion of the World - Missions Mandate and Animism: - International Journal of Frontier Missions
Read a really amazing book on the issue recently called "Along the Silk Road" as it concerns the Silk Road - and it was amazing seeing the different religions that came together/interacted, as well as how they developed - from animism to theism. From Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan to Tajikistan ...to Kashgar, China, to Istanbul, Turkey and so many others pertaining to the peoples of Central Asia and their rich cultures. ...and religious experiences...
...... there always seems to be a lot of interaction with Animism, Secularism and Theism ......Animistic salvation is utilitarian, selfish, human-directed, and this-worldly....for an animist is chiefly concerned with self as he he seeks power to fulfill his own earthly needs... but conversely, Christian salvation is a response to grace, altruistic and self-giving, God-focused, and includes the immediate as well as the eternal. For a Christian, unlike the earthly focused animist, seeks to fulfill the purposes of God.
Having to do a research project on St. Patrick, I was recently amazed at the ways he went about handling it. For Christianity had a toe-hold in Ireland before Patrick, but the religion in Ireland before Patrick was animism IN ADDITION to belief in superstition, omens, soothsaying, magic, curses and the power of sacred places.
Like the people in Korra's universe when it came to the spirits, the Irish also believed many unpredictable supernatural forces including shape shifting hidden dangers. Patrick too believed in supernatural force but all coming from a good and loving God. At one point, Patrick made his way to the Hill of Tara, Co. Meath, seat of the high king of Ireland. Arriving on the eve of Easter, he lit a paschal fire on the nearby Hill of Slane. At this time of year, it was pagan practice to put out all fires before a new one was lit at Tara. When the druids at Tara saw the light from Slane, they warned King Laoghaire that he must extinguish it or it would burn forever...but. Patrick was summoned to Tara, and on the way he and his followers chanted the hymn known as "The Lorica" or "Saint Patrick's Breastplate".
Although Laoghaire remained a pagan, he was so impressed by the saint that he gave him permission to make converts throughout his realm. Muirchu's Life of Patrick, written two centuries later, describes a contest of magic in which Laoghaire's druids had to concede victory to the saint. And later Patrick travelled widely in Ireland, making converts and establishing new churches, though he eventually made his headquarters at Armagh.
There's a lot that can be seen with the vibrant gospel witness of Celtic Christians. With St. Patrick, his evangelizing the pagans of Ireland has much to be commended for our day since they lived in Christian community while living in close proximity to those who worshipped many gods. By voice of their preaching and example of gospel living together in good works, Celtic Christianity spread rapidly over Ireland. Their faith was alive to creation with God the Trinity as the great creator. Their theology was very practical and suited to a simple farming people and they did not deal in some of the abstract theologizing that lead to debate throughout the empire. They were faithful to the truth but contextualized it for the agrarian Celts whose historical ties were deep with creation. This is seen powerfully in the Irish prayer known as Saint Patricks Breastplate (mentioned earlier) dating to perhaps a century or so after Patrick. Though the form that survives most likely is not from the pen of Patrick, yet it certainly encapsulates the Christian faith he established amongst this once barbarous people. It is a prayer dancing with both God and the natural world and ends with a phrase familiar to many who have heard of Patrick.
More can be found in the book entitled "How the Irish Saved Civilization " by Thomas Cahill ...excellent studyChrist with me, Christ before me, Christ behind me, Christ in me, Christ below me, Christ above me, Christ to the right of me, Christ to the left of me, Christ where I lie, Christ where I sit, Christ where I stand, Christ in the heart of everyone who thinks of me, Christ in the mouth of everyone who speaks of me, Christ in every eye which sees me, Christ in every ear which hears me.
As he noted:
The difference between Patricks magic and the magic of the druids is that in Patricks world all beings and events come from the hand of a good God, who loves human beings and wishes them success.....
This magical world, though full of adventure and surprise, is no longer full of dread. Rather, Christ has trodden all pathways before us, and at every crossroads and by every tree the Word of God speaks out. We have only to be quiet and listen, as Patrick learned to do during the silence of his novitiate as a shepherd on the slopes of Sliabh Mis. | This sense of the world as holy, as the Book of God as a healing mystery, fraught with divine messages could never have risen out of Greco-Roman civilization, threaded with the profound pessimism of the ancients and their Platonic suspicion of the body as unholy and the world as devoid of meaning....
It seems that as some point in the development of every culture, human sacrifice becomes unthinkable, and animals are from then on substituted for human victims At all events, the Irish had not reached this point and were still sacrificing human beings to their gods when Patrick began his mission Patrick declared that such sacrifices were no longer needed. Christ has died once for all Yes, the Irish would have said, here is a story that answers our deepest needs and answers them in a way so good that we could never even have dared dream of it. We can put away our knives and abandon our altars. These are no longer required. The God of the Three Faces has given us his own Son, and we are washed clean in the blood of this lamb. God does not hate us; he loves us. Greater love than this no man has than that he should lay down his life for his friends. That is what Gods Word, made flesh, did for us. From now on, we are all sacrifices but without the shedding of blood. It is our lives, not our deaths that this God wants. But we are to be sacrifices, for Paul adds to the hymn this advice to all: Let this [same] mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus. .
[/QUOTE]Whether or not Holy people have done certain things doesn't necessarily equate to the thing done being Holy in the ultimate sense - and that is what was being said in the earlier response. For it is plain that Solomon did certain actions that are noted in earlier works from antiquity that the saints were familiar with (specifically, the Old Testament pseudepigrapha) - but one must be careful of developing fascination with them as if it was the Lord's will for believers to be involved in such actions.
Even with possession of Holy Objects, when in idolatry, there was a dynamic that happened in scripture where the Lord noted others ended up placing themselves in danger thinking the object alone was what helped them when their idolatry itself ended up ruining them...and making even good objects of no effect. In Numbers 21:8-10 / Numbers 21 , THE SAME staff that was told to the people by the Lord to be built had become something that was needing to be destroyed by the time of Hezekiah since people in his day began to worship it, as seen in 2 Kings 18:3-5 / 2 Kings 18 , yet the Lord references Himself in it in John 3 when discussing all looking unto Him, as they were commanded to do with the bronze serpent, were to be saved.
And with objects, although they can have Biblical purpose, they can be corrupted.John 3:14
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
John 3:13-15 / John 3
To be clear, I am NOT saying Solomon's Ring ever was proven to be an object of the Lord that was to be sought after/prized - there's simply not enough information on the issue.....and far too much on his idolatry for it to be trusted. Also, I'm NOT saying that it's automatically wrong (as many assume) to use objects that Holy men/women and priests have utilized when it comes to exorcism (i.e. Holy Water, blessing Exorcized/Holy salt , etc.) - for the OT and NT already show where that has been acceptable (As shared here and here) - and I've participated in such actions myself when going to the homes of church members with priest and praying blessings over the home and dealing with evil spirits present in the house.
However, not all objects others seek to use have ever been done with Biblical precedent nor done for the right reasons - and in light of the idolatry Solomon fell into and the magic he was involved with (already forbidden by the Lord), IMHO, there are things he did which I see little reason others need to be focused upon......and other things within the NT which may be more noteworthy.
Often in the OT, the Lord worked IN SPITE of what others did...and we often look back at an action done assuming that the ends justified the means - rather than simply seeing a recording of how things were done/what was allowed by the Lord, rather than examining if it was forbidden and the Lord instead chose to overlook it for a time. I've yet to see within the Law of God that using demons to construct the House of the Lord was something the Lord looked favorably upon when he already noted how he wanted things to go down...
For the Ring was something Solomon seemed to utilize when he was NOT serving the Lord/already full of idolatry in his life (even after the Lord gave Him wisdom since he was already married to a Daughter of Egypt according to 1 Kings 3:1-3 /1 Kings 9:15-17 /2 Chronicles 8:10-12 - against the rules of the Law in Deuteronomy 17 (and keep in mind - this was not Solomon's first marriage since 1 Kings 14:21 tells us that his son Rehoboam came to the throne when he was 41 years old, and 1 Kings 11:42 tells us that Solomon reigned 40 years...meaning that Rehoboam was born to his mother - a wife of Solomon named Naamah the Amonitess in 1 Kings 14:20-22/2 Chronicles 12:12-14 - before he came to the throne and before he married this daughter of Pharaoh). And the issue of pagan women was later noted in the Scripture via the Book of Nehemiah, as Nehemiah was angry and frustrated because the people of Israel married with the pagan nations around them. And in rebuking the guilty, Nehemiah remembered Solomon's bad example:
So I contended with them and cursed them, struck some of them and pulled out their hair, and made them swear by God, saying, "You shall not give your daughters as wives to their sons, nor take their daughters for your sons or yourselves. Did not Solomon king of Israel sin by these things? Yet among many nations there was no king like him, who was beloved of his God; and God made him king over all Israel. Nevertheless pagan women caused even him to sin. Should we then hear of your doing all this great evil, transgressing against our God by marrying pagan women?" (Nehemiah 13:25-27)
Piecing things together randomly never helps indeed - and with my friends who are Atheists, I am glad for those noting the need for consistency and not simply critiquing those who believe in theism and yet failing to show (On the part of the atheist) where their own worldview is more solid/consistent.There's many separate ideas here but they all work to explain your point and viewed from your lens it seems clear to me. The bolded sentence stands out to me overall as its something that I often run into when talking religion with my naturalist or Atheist friends (who are great by the way); theism or not, it comes together much better for me as an individual if its consistent within its own systematic boundaries. Obviously the many religious and philosophies of the world are going to have many different systems but it makes sense to have one cogent one yourself be it Christian, Pagan, Atheist or whatever. Just choosing pieces of things works for some but to me it doesn't build a very concrete belief system because it feels so arbitrary.
Trust me when I say I get what you're saying - and of course, I have told others before that trying to always verify something as either true or false empiracally can be misleading at times (simply because the metaphysical world is already something which naturalists cannot really disappove - and Native Americans have often pointed this out with the Western world when it comes to the Enlightmnent era/Age of Reason and Materialism/REASON being promoted excessively - it's not consider logical for Native Spirituality in saying only what can be explained in science or explained in natural terms is real and this has been noted when it comes to pointing out how methods of research often differ with regards to a Native perspective as opposed to a Western one).One does not categorically reject Greek mythological stories or religious parables just because they may not be literally factual. People hold onto them because they often express elements of truth about the world or the human condition or something else that makes them valuable to preserve. I think individuals are being too limited in their thinking if you throw out a story because it may be empirically false. Furthermore, ideas expressed in media such as DBZ or The Last Airbender (for example) have as much merit as more ancient mythical stories in some cases. People seem to reject them because they are too modern but that's just an appeal to age fallacy as far as I'm concerned. I think that the whole body of work in human creativity has something to offer the world no matter how academic or old it is. That doesn't make it factually true but it doesn't mean it does not contain any elements of truth. Does that make sense?
I honestly wonder if this will be the end of the DRAGON Ball series since it has literally taken things to the limit...This is the first time T. has really focused on mythology and theology. It was always some philosophy implied and even explicit, but this Super is rich in "mytheology" since the beginning.
I think your analysis of the Dragon Ball universe is spot on and its relation to Buddhism, Taoism and Shinto is very stark when looking back on it, now having more familiarity with those religions.
Hit was very impressiveAnd Hitto/Hit is stronger than any of the Movie or "legendary" saiyans (he represents Turles, Broly, Bio-Broly and the likes, I think.) He is stronger than SSB + KK×10. Hit may actually be able to go toe to toe with Champa.
Hit was very impressive
Vegeta is literally the only one who has worked with the sweat of his brow to gain his strength (no unlocks,) which is ironic considering he is a prince.
So true....Yep. That's why I said he was strongest - even rivaling Champa. I say that because of his techniques as well as power, although you are right he isn't classically "base power" strong. We saw that when base Goku was able to scratch him several times.
Toriyama seems to be going back to DB where techniques are just as important as raw power levels.
I do think Hit can rival Champa, but I think Beerus can beat him easily - because I think SSG can beat him easily. SSG had more control over techniques (like ki sensing/masking/absorption) than SSB does, and we saw Beerus train SSG with techniques of the gods, so Beerus is very skilled.
Although, I don't think Champa was playing around either when he told Hit he was going to destroy him, and to come at him with Time Leap.
I am kind of mad that Hit is looking like Goku's new attention draw/rival. He said Hit is always one step ahead of him (something Vegeta often says about Goku,) and he actually hired him to kill him just so that he could see his true power (i.e. test abilities.) Even Vegeta commented on it, which I thought was either comical, or a soon to be slap in the face to Vegeta fans. I hope Hit stays Goku''s rival from another universe - separate necessarily from DBS.
At least, do this until Vegeta becomes demonstrably stronger than Goku, and saves the day a couple of times.
Oh, and after they MAKE GOHAN GREAT AGAIN!
And, maybe bring back Tien, godly namek Piccolo... and at least one Vegeta/Cabbe mini arc where he visits Planet Salad and the king. Maybe the king is super strong, and can show Vegeta a new "secret" power up - king to "prince/king."
Who knows... right now I am more worried about Toriyama messing up Vegeta.
More filler for next week, so it looks like the Universal Survival Arc will be epic, and long.
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