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Downloading Media Types?

Nooj

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Ok, assume, for the purposes of the OP, assume that the individual downloading music and movies was doing it strictly for entertainment
I think it's wrong either way to steal/infringe upon copyright. And I don't think educating oneself is that much more noble of an intention than simply stealing for entertainment.

It still causes the same amount of harm to the copyright holder.
 
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Mystman

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I think the two “crimes” are of equal status.

In my view, neither should be punishable, or even considered crimes.

I've never seen a watertight defense for the whole "I should be able to freely copy content that takes millions of dollars to produce!"-sentiment. Sure, there are some arguments that make sense ("try before you buy", and then actually doing the buying part, something often forgotten by many of the pro-piracy crowd..), but those arguments are basically advocating a change in the business model of large entertainment companies. Giving consumers alternate (and more modern) ways of purchasing/consuming their digital content.

A model of "the content producer shouldn't earn a single cent for all their hard work" is never going to be a good idea. (not saying you advocate this, but you know..)

But anyway. I think lawtonfoggle asked a good question: "Isn't there something fundamentally wrong when education can be considered stolen".

In the ideal case, you might want all education to be provided by the government, for the good of the population. The problem comes when Dr. X decides to write an extremely specialised book on the flourescent properties of Carbon Nanotubes, that only 20 people in the world are going to find interesting. At the moment, such specialised books are sold for ridiculous amonts of money (e.g.) in order to pay for Dr. X's time.

Now, if everyone pirates Dr. X's book, he's not going to earn any money, and the next person with specialised knowledge will think twice before spending a year on sharing his knowledge with the world. The alternative is that the government pays for Dr. X's time, making the resulting book free for all citizens, but then how do you decide what is "worthwile" education? Is a book on the flourescent properties of Carbon Nanotubes worth tens of thousands taxpayer dollars?

But: the problem of "free education" is already solved in a way: much scientific research is already sponsored by the government, and that research is often made publicly available.

In Holland, we have 3 tax-payer-paid television stations, with all/most their programs (often of a (semi)educational nature) being available on demand via the internet.

Wikipedia is a brilliant source for low-level investigation of issues. Combine Wikipedia with access to a peer-reviewed-science database like PubMed, and you have acces to more information and education than you're ever going to need in your life.

So in conclusion: Piracy of educational material can be just as harmful to the producer as piracy of amusement material. But it is desirable to have education available for everyone. Luckily, the advent of the internet has done just that.

(for people pirating the specialised educational material not available in public sources: ah.... they don't need to be imprisoned or anything, but a hefty fine or something is in order)
 
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TerranceL

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Aside from the fact that it isnt theft, why do you feel they should both be punished the same?

You are recieving a product you didn't pay for and received via illegal means. Of course it's theft.
 
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TerranceL

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I think the two “crimes” are of equal status.

In my view, neither should be punishable, or even considered crimes.

What other products should people be able to take freely without paying the producer?
 
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Steezie

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You are recieving a product you didn't pay for and received via illegal means. Of course it's theft.
I dont want to side-track the thread, but theft is the act of intentionally depriving someone of something they own: taking something from someone else without permission.

In the case of file sharing, the original copy remains with the original owner and he/she is not deprived of what they owned.

It is analogous to me creating a piece of furniture that is a duplicate of the one my friend owns. I did not take anything from my friend, I have simply copied what he owns. I find it interesting that the analogy is only illegal if I sell my duplicate for money whereas the same is not true for information.
 
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cantata

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I've never seen a watertight defense for the whole "I should be able to freely copy content that takes millions of dollars to produce!"-sentiment.

Well, why not? You already can, completely legally, to a certain extent. There’s nothing to stop you recording stuff off the TV and burning it to DVD. There’s nothing to stop you using realtime sound capture software to record everything your computer plays on Spotify or Last.fm. People already freely copy content that takes millions of dollars to produce, and have been doing so for decades; the world hasn’t ended.

Clamping down on people illegally selling content they don’t own is one thing. But people downloading for personal consumption? I can’t fault it—in most cases it’s not as if they would have spent the money had downloading been impossible.

Sure, there are some arguments that make sense ("try before you buy", and then actually doing the buying part, something often forgotten by many of the pro-piracy crowd..), but those arguments are basically advocating a change in the business model of large entertainment companies. Giving consumers alternate (and more modern) ways of purchasing/consuming their digital content.

Uh, not only alternative and more modern, but cheaper ways of purchasing and consuming digital content.

Why would I pay 79p for an mp3 on iTunes when I can have exactly the same thing for free now, and then if I like it, wait a couple of months and have it for half the price on an actual physical CD? The fact is that the music industry has been ripping off fans for decades, and now it’s having to deal with the fallout: music consumers don’t feel they owe record labels anything, and everyone has seen a breakdown or two of where the money goes anyway. I was looking at an artist’s website the other day, and he had his entire back catalogue available for free download right there on his site. He said that he received about 2p/track out of the 79p you would pay on iTunes; the rest went to distributors, managers, labels, iTunes, and goodness knows who else, so he would prefer you to have the music for free and buy a gig ticket or a t-shirt once in a while.

A model of "the content producer shouldn't earn a single cent for all their hard work" is never going to be a good idea. (not saying you advocate this, but you know..)

I don’t. Content producers will continue to earn money for their hard work.

The fact is that if you look at the figures, the illegal sharing of music and video is not actually a big problem for the music or film industries. The biggest downloading demographic is young people with no money. They download stuff that they would never buy—that they could never buy. And most of the people I know who download music and films also regularly buy hard copy formats of the stuff they love best. What is happening is that people are hearing more music and seeing more films, but they’re not buying fewer CDs or DVDs as a consequence.

The other thing is that if I didn’t have access to illegally copied mp3s, I probably wouldn’t have bought any music in the last three or four years because I would never have heard it. The summary of this excellent page about the effects of file sharing on the music industry makes an interesting point: “the 'bottom' 3/4 of artists sell more as a consequence of file-sharing while the top 1/4 sell less.” In other words, the obscure bands whose albums I and many others have downloaded are doing better because of file-sharing. I would never have heard of Clare & The Reasons, DM Stith, My Brightest Diamond, Hanne Hukkelberg, Oh No Ono, Mia Doi Todd, Asaf Avidan & The Mojos, or Absynthe Minded if it hadn’t been for filesharing, and I now own CD albums by all of these artists, have been to see several of them live, and have even donated a considerable sum of money to one of them in order to help fund their next European tour.

The problem comes when Dr. X decides to write an extremely specialised book on the flourescent properties of Carbon Nanotubes, that only 20 people in the world are going to find interesting. At the moment, such specialised books are sold for ridiculous amonts of money (e.g.) in order to pay for Dr. X's time.

Now, if everyone pirates Dr. X's book, he's not going to earn any money, and the next person with specialised knowledge will think twice before spending a year on sharing his knowledge with the world.

Do you think that the people who pirate Dr X’s book would have paid for it if they hadn’t been able to pirate it?

Also, if I can quote at length the excellent and entirely serious Oxford student newspaper The Oxymoron,
“UNDERGROUND BOOK RING RAIDED

POLICE have raided and shut down what is believed to be the biggest book-sharing ring in the western world. OLIS was an invitation-only internet service where users could acquire books for free, sometimes even after they were in the shops. A year-long operation spearheaded by the Thames Valley Police culminated in a raid last night which led to the arrest of the head-user who is thought to be masterminding the ring.

Police uncovered an estimated 5 million separate titles hidden in underground chambers beneath the streets of Oxford. Preliminary investigations revealed that although most users only took material for personal use, some went further, with one scanning millions of manuscripts and subsequently releasing them online. A police spokesman confirmed the gravity of the issue, stating: “this was no ordinary book-swapping club, this was a full blown copyright library where users could freely borrow and copy from a large selection of titles.”

A criminal investigation continues into the identities and activities of the site’s users.”
Aren’t library users pirating Dr X’s book?
 
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Steezie

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Well, why not? You already can, completely legally, to a certain extent. There’s nothing to stop you recording stuff off the TV and burning it to DVD. There’s nothing to stop you using realtime sound capture software to record everything your computer plays on Spotify or Last.fm.
In the interests of fairness, I feel I should point out that this IS technically illegal

People already freely copy content that takes millions of dollars to produce, and have been doing so for decades; the world hasn’t ended.
I feel in fairness I should also point out that this is 100%true. When the VCR was invented, motion picture companies argued that it would kill off their business because of recording from TV. Record companies argued that the cassette recorder would kill off live music and the radio because people would record from the radio and not listen to the radio except to get the initial recording.

Clamping down on people illegally selling content they don’t own is one thing. But people downloading for personal consumption? I can’t fault it—in most cases it’s not as if they would have spent the money had downloading been impossible.
This is an argument I find very interesting. Lawsuits against people for personal consumption generally argue that the downloading resulted in lost profits for the producer. However in many cases, the downloader would never have paid actual money for the product so would not have been a customer in the first place. Also, there is the case of file sharing giving rise to new customers and presenting essentially a free advertising service to draw people in to buy things that cant be downloaded.


The fact is that the music industry has been ripping off fans for decades, and now it’s having to deal with the fallout: music consumers don’t feel they owe record labels anything, and everyone has seen a breakdown or two of where the money goes anyway. I was looking at an artist’s website the other day, and he had his entire back catalogue available for free download right there on his site. He said that he received about 2p/track out of the 79p you would pay on iTunes; the rest went to distributors, managers, labels, iTunes, and goodness knows who else, so he would prefer you to have the music for free and buy a gig ticket or a t-shirt once in a while.
You have another extremely good point, the music industry is entirely un-necessary. Artists do not suffer greatly from the downloading of music as most of their revenue comes from endorsements, performances, merchandise, and appearances. If the music industry folds, this means only an end to the corporate created bands. Technology is such that now ANYONE can record, mix, and distribute their music with relative ease and very little expense; the music INDUSTRY has become un-necessary.

The fact is that if you look at the figures, the illegal sharing of music and video is not actually a big problem for the music or film industries.
Something the relevant industries have admitted previously. They have also been caught inflating their loss figures in public statements.
 
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cantata

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In the interests of fairness, I feel I should point out that this IS technically illegal

Not in the UK it isn’t, to the best of my knowledge!

I have a hard disk recorder attached to my digital television. It’s entirely legal (as far as I can tell) for me to both record content and burn it to DVD, as long as I don’t sell it or charge people to watch it.

Of course, I am covered by a licence fee. Not sure how it works in countries that don’t have one.
 
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Mystman

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I'd like to pick out 2 points..

What is happening is that people are hearing more music and seeing more films, but they’re not buying fewer CDs or DVDs as a consequence.

I'll agree with a large part of your music-related argument. Yes, the music industry is taking a very large share of the price of a CD. Yes, people might be more likely to buy CDs from less well known bands when they can sample the stuff by listening to it online.

But is that really an argument for "I have no obligation at all to pay the content creator"? You talk of a system basically consisting of "we get to have your stuff for free.. and if we feel like it we might give some money in return". If content-producers themselves choose for such a system: nice! But if not, do you really have the right to take someone else's creation without paying for it?

Anyway: the same "checking out some songs before buying the CD" argument really doesn't work for DVDs. If you download a movie, you'll watch it, delete it, and then forget about it. Even if you actually buy a movie from the same director/actor/whatever, you're never financially supporting all the right people, with different people working on different movies.

Aren’t library users pirating Dr X’s book?

I'd think that there is existing legislation for the operation of libraries?

Besides, the financial impact of libraries and movie piracy is completely different. A library has to buy 1 physical copy for every book they lend out. So maybe ~52 people can read a single copy of the book in a year. To reach an audience of a million people in one year, libraries would have to buy 20000 copies.

Compare with movie piracy, where bittorrent can easily reach an audience of a million people within a day, buying exactly 0 legal copies.
 
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