Doubting God’s goodness in unconditional election

Clare73

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Parts of the Bible needs to be interpreted in the context of the entire Bible.
All of the Bible is to be understood in the light of the whole Bible.
Calvin contradicted the teaching of all other Christians: Orthodox, Catholics, Lutherans, Anabaptists, and Arminians/Wesleyans. Do you think he was smarter or more Godly than all the others?
What teachings did you have in mind?

Informed believers want to know.
Calvinists like to claim that he followed St Augustine. This is why I intentionally posted a Catholic reference to refute this idea.

I wonder how can anyone be spiritually comfortable w/ the five points of Calvinists/Reformed?
What is your comfort level with Ro 9:10-23, particularly with 18-23?
2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The letter misunderstood kills.
The "letter" is the written code of the law with its death penalty for any and all disobedience, which therefore kills everyone.
It's not about the "letter" killing by misunderstanding the meaning of the text, where the "spirit" of the text is its true meaning.
It's about the law (letter) vs. the Holy Spirit in salvation.
God the Creator gave us critical thinking and reason, unless one leans with the Gnostics toward the idea that the Creator did not want us to have critical thinking.

Amen. The "knowledge of God" is the purpose of critical thinking and revelation.
If you are of the opinion that your "critical thinking" will make the God of the Bible "comfortable" to you, you will die in your critical thinking, devoid of faith and salvation, at best serving the God of your own imagination and thinking, which is just idolatry.
 
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zippy2006

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I think I need to comprehensively articulate (at least to myself) once and for all why I can’t support Calvinism then examine what the alternative/s are (Arminianism?). Perhaps this is my Reformed/Calvinist upbringing speaking, but through all of the research I’ve done it seems the Bible does affirm Calvinism.
Rather than trying to articulate it "once and for all," it may be better to aim at a more modest goal. My suggestion would be to put your finger on an argument against Calvinism that you find cogent, and offer that argument for discussion.
 
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Andrewn

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All of the Bible is to be understood in the light of the whole Bible.
Yes.

What teachings did you have in mind? Informed believers want to know.
As I said in my previous message (#40), it is the five points of Calvinists/Reformed.

What is your comfort level with Ro 9:10-23, particularly with 18-23?
I don't have a problem with any part of the Bible. I already posted a link to St John Chrysostom's commentary on Romans 9 (message #36).

The "letter" is the written code of the law with its death penalty for any and all disobedience, which therefore kills everyone.
It's not about the "letter" killing by misunderstanding the meaning of the text, where the "spirit" of the text is its true meaning.
It's about the law (letter) vs. the Holy Spirit in salvation.
The Giver of the Law is the Giver of the Holy Spirit. Any written code misunderstood without the Holy Spirit kills.

If you are of the opinion that your "critical thinking" will make the God of the Bible "comfortable" to you, you will die in your critical thinking, devoid of faith and salvation, at best serving the God of your own imagination and thinking, which is just idolatry.
I could say the same about the Calvinist/Reformed/your interpretation of Romans.
 
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Clare73

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Yes.

As I said in my previous message (#40), it is the five points of Calvinists/Reformed.

I don't have a problem with any part of the Bible. I already posted a link to St John Chrysostom's commentary on Romans 9 (message #36).

The Giver of the Law is the Giver of the Holy Spirit. Any written code misunderstood without the Holy Spirit kills.
Where do we find that in Scripture?

It is not in 2 Co 3:6, where the written code is the law which kills by its death penalty on disobedience, which is why the sacrifices were given to die in their place.
I could say the same about the Calvinist/Reformed/your interpretation of Romans.
Ro 9 doesn't need "interpretation," it speaks clearly and plainly for itself, and it is not comfortable for unbelievers.
 
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Andrewn

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Ro 9 doesn't need "interpretation,"
All reading requires interpretation. When you read my message, you need to interpret the words. When I read your message, I need to do the same. Images pass from the visual occipital lobe through the decoding temporal lobe to Broca’s area in the frontal lobe, which is responsible for language comprehension. Several other brain areas are also involved, including areas responsible for emotions, memory, and attention. Without comprehension and interpretation reading is impossible. Of course, different people have different levels of reading comprehension.

God created a marvelous system. Don't discount His creation.
 
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Clare73

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All reading requires interpretation. When you read my message, you need to interpret the words. When I read your message, I need to do the same. Images pass from the visual occipital lobe through the decoding temporal lobe to Broca’s area in the frontal lobe, which is responsible for language comprehension. Several other brain areas are also involved, including areas responsible for emotions, memory, and attention. Without comprehension and interpretation reading is impossible. Of course, different people have different levels of reading comprehension.

God created a marvelous system. Don't discount His creation.
When you don't present strawmen.
 
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Andrewn

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When you don't present strawmen.
Are you saying that "Ro 9 doesn't need 'interpretation'" because the Apostle presented strawmen?

it is not comfortable for unbelievers.
Do you mean the damned whom God presumably creates as fodder for hell?
 
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Clare73

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Are you saying that "Ro 9 doesn't need 'interpretation'" because the Apostle presented strawmen?
Does that correctly represent my grammatical construction?
Do you mean the damned whom God presumably creates as fodder for hell?
There is no statement "fodder for hell" in my Bible.
Sounds like a false notion of man to me.
 
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I would disagree with this. We are not "automatically" destined for hell. It is our sins that condemn us, not our existence.
I don't know your view on original sin, but for those who hold to it, yes our mere existence would be an outcry against the creator. Even in a view where there is no "original sin" to repent from, its still a nature. Can one change their nature? Do you ask a cat to not hunt, or a bird to not fly?

We humans are asked to go against our nature of sin, which I don't have a problem with, but then this means that humans cannot exist without sin (at least not as we are now) because it is a part of our nature. That's the beauty of the cross, that we humans who would have no chance at salvation due to who/what we are, were given a way to be redeemed.
 
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If unconditional election is truly unconditional, how is it good for God to personally choose who goes to heaven or hell irrespective of any aspect of a person’s being, sinful behavior or spiritual belief?
It was the Early Church's understanding that man is indeed judged by his/her deeds. That man has genuine free will. Able to choose or reject God. That God does not compel any to be saved.

Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

The following website A comprehensive look at Predestination vs free will presents the case for free will in man.
 
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In God's economy, all mankind are by nature, objects of wrath (Eph 2:3). We are born with our nature; i.e., fallen.

Consider, God is not full of wrath for all people, but rather those who suppress the truth, after God, has revealed His will. His wrath has a reason:

Rom 1:18-22 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools,

In the same way that His love has a reason, He loves the one who receives Him:

John 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
 
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Andrewn

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its still a nature. Can one change their nature? Do you ask a cat to not hunt, or a bird to not fly? We humans are asked to go against our nature of sin,
Nature is what we think of as pre-wiring. It is influenced by genetic inheritance and other biological factors that affect your mental health and personality development. If you believe you have a "sinful nature," you may feel powerless to change something you think was determined before birth.

this means that humans cannot exist without sin (at least not as we are now) because it is a part of our nature.
The belief in "sinful nature" is not based on the Bible but rather on some faulty translations of the Bible that are in turn based on the Catholic "original sin" and the Calvinist "total deprivation."

That's the beauty of the cross, that we humans who would have no chance at salvation due to who/what we are, were given a way to be redeemed.
Humans cannot be redeemed without Christ. But there is no biblical reason to believe that our nature is garbage.
 
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Clare73

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Consider, God is not full of wrath for all people, but rather those who suppress the truth, after God, has revealed His will. His wrath has a reason:
Eph 2:3 is plain: we are by nature objects of wrath.
We are born with our fallen nature, and are objects of wrath from birth.

The only remedy is faith in and trust on the atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) and person of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin and right standing with God.
Rom 1:18-22 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools,

In the same way that His love has a reason, He loves the one who receives Him:

John 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
 
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Andrewn

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Eph 2:3 is plain: we are by nature objects of wrath.
We are born with our fallen nature, and are objects of wrath from birth.
I knew I could count on you to quote this verse :). This verse can be misunderstood to imply that we have a "sinful nature." But first note where the Apostle Peter says:

2Pe 1:4 Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of lust and may become participants of the divine nature.

No one claims that we will become participants of God's divine essence or substance. This is not what the word "nature" means. It rather means that we will become participants in divine attributes of holiness and virtue.

Similarly, in Eph 2:3, as Thayer's Greek Lexicon indicates, "nature" means "a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature."

It is behavior, not genetic inheritance or biology, that makes people "objects of wrath."

The Apostle Paul said, We "were" children of wrath, not we "are" children of wrath.
 
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Clare73

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I knew I could count on you to quote this verse :). This verse can be misunderstood to imply that we have a "sinful nature." But first note where the Apostle Peter says:

2Pe 1:4 Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of lust and may become participants of the divine nature.
No one claims that we will become participants of God's divine essence or substance. This is not what the word "nature" means. It rather means that we will become participants in divine attributes of holiness and virtue.
I'm thinking that is exactly what it means.

As God participated in the human nature in Christ, so we likewise participate in the divine nature in Christ.
Similarly, in Eph 2:3, as Thayer's Greek Lexicon indicates, "nature" means "a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature."

It is behavior, not genetic inheritance or biology, that makes people "objects of wrath."
Not quite. . .

Nature (Gr: phusis), used in Eph 2:3, means the natural powers or constitution of a thing.
Our natural spiritual (of the Holy Spirt) power is nil, our constitution is fallen and sinful, which is why we are objects of wrath (Eph 2:3) as enemies of God (Ro 5:10).
 
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I'm thinking that is exactly what it means.
The subject of "sharing in the divine nature" is above my understanding. Perhaps quoting OrthodoxWiki will suffice here:

"Theosis ("deification," "divinization") is the process of a worshiper becoming free of hamartía ("missing the mark"), being united with God, beginning in this life and later consummated in bodily resurrection. For Orthodox Christians, Théōsis (see 2 Pet. 1:4) is salvation. Théōsis assumes that humans from the beginning are made to share in the Life or Nature of the all-Holy Trinity. Therefore, an infant or an adult worshiper is saved from the state of unholiness (hamartía — which is not to be confused with hamártēma “sin”) for participation in the Life (zōé, not simply bíos) of the Trinity — which is everlasting.

"This is not to be confused with the heretical (apothéōsis) - "Deification in God’s Essence", which is imparticipable."


Nature (Gr: phusis), used in Eph 2:3, means the natural powers or constitution of a thing.
Our natural spiritual (of the Holy Spirt) power is nil, our constitution is fallen and sinful, which is why we are objects of wrath (Eph 2:3) as enemies of God (Ro 5:10).
Col 1:21 And you, who were formerly alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled

Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, how much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by His life.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sake, but as regarding the election, they are beloved for the sake of the patriarchs.

God does not consider people his enemies. In Rom 5:10, Rom 11:28, and Col 1:21 it is people who consider God their enemy! The wrath of God is not against people but against "hamartia" as described above. It is his absolute displeasure at evil. God loves the sinners and desires their repentance and salvation.

Eze 33:11 Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live;

2Pe 3:9 The Lord does not delay his promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.

Back to the word "nature" in Eph 2:3,

Eph 2:3 All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, doing the will of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else,

It is clear that the first part of the verse discusses behavior, and there is no reason to conclude that the last part is not about behavior. Not an inherited condition. Thayer's Greek Lexicon offers 4 different meanings for "physis." In Eph 2:3, it says that "physis" means "a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature," as I previously mentioned.

 
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Nature is what we think of as pre-wiring. It is influenced by genetic inheritance and other biological factors that affect your mental health and personality development. If you believe you have a "sinful nature," you may feel powerless to change something you think was determined before birth.
I mean, that is the general understanding of it yes. I don't think that every facet of our being is the result of genetics, but it is a part of us and yes I do believe some people have behaviors that are simply hard-wired into them. Yes it is in our nature to cheat, lie, steal, etc. If this were not the case, then that means that we can live fully just lives and there would be no need for the cross; we wouldn't need a savior, we would need to try harder.

I don't know your personal views on the creation/evolution debate (and I'm not looking to derail the thread towards that topic), but I believe that some of that behavior is due to this being advantageous to our ancestors (to an extent, the animal kingdom isn't all bloodshed and violence like people like to portray it), but we have been called by God to rise above being just animals slave to our natural whims, and in specific ways because I don't believe all of our natural inclinations are inherently wrong, so don't confuse me for a gnostic.

Humans cannot be redeemed without Christ. But there is no biblical reason to believe that our nature is garbage.
I never said that, I said that sin is a part of our nature. We are torn between two worlds, I think Romans 7:18 sums up my view pretty succinctly.
 
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Where do we find that in Scripture?

It is not in 2 Co 3:6, where the written code is the law which kills by its death penalty on disobedience, which is why the sacrifices were given to die in their place.

Ro 9 doesn't need "interpretation," it speaks clearly and plainly for itself, and it is not comfortable for unbelievers.
Paul introduces Romans 9 by speaking of how many in Jewish Heritage are cut off from Christ - it has nothing to do with Gentiles or Calvinism. Paul did not change the topic per what Romans 10:1 says. Context is king.

Romans 9: 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.​
 
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The subject of "sharing in the divine nature" is above my understanding. Perhaps quoting OrthodoxWiki will suffice here:

"Theosis ("deification," "divinization") is the process of a worshiper becoming free of hamartía ("missing the mark"), being united with God, beginning in this life and later consummated in bodily resurrection. For Orthodox Christians, Théōsis (see 2 Pet. 1:4) is salvation. Théōsis assumes that humans from the beginning are made to share in the Life or Nature of the all-Holy Trinity. Therefore, an infant or an adult worshiper is saved from the state of unholiness (hamartía — which is not to be confused with hamártēma “sin”) for participation in the Life (zōé, not simply bíos) of the Trinity — which is everlasting.

"This is not to be confused with the heretical (apothéōsis) - "Deification in God’s Essence", which is imparticipable."

I prefer koinonos (partaker) of 2 Pe 1:4.
Col 1:21 And you, who were formerly alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, how much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by His life.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sake, but as regarding the election, they are beloved for the sake of the patriarchs.
God does not consider people his enemies. In Rom 5:10, Rom 11:28, and Col 1:21 it is people who consider God their enemy!
Well, the text states when "we were God's enemies", it does not state when "God was our enemy."
The wrath of God is not against people but against "hamartia" as described above. It is his absolute displeasure at evil. God loves the sinners and desires their repentance and salvation.
Eze 33:11 Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live;
2Pe 3:9 The Lord does not delay his promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.
Well, it's people that got to hell, not hamartia.
Back to the word "nature" in Eph 2:3,
Eph 2:3 All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, doing the will of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else,
It is clear that the first part of the verse discusses behavior, and there is no reason to conclude that the last part is not about behavior. Not an inherited condition. Thayer's Greek Lexicon offers 4 different meanings for "physis." In Eph 2:3, it says that "physis" means "a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature," as I previously mentioned.
It is clear there that the Greek word used in Eph 2:3 is phusis, which meaning is "the natural powers or constitution of a thing."

Take Scripture at its word, stop futzing with it.
 
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