Doubt

[2PhiloVoid]

No, actually in person. Retired philosophy professor, retired Communications professor and retired surgeon with interest in theology.

That's a wonderful thing to have. What a shame that so few fellow Christians are interested in studying these things, but it is what it is.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

That's a wonderful thing to have. What a shame that so few fellow Christians are interested in studying these things, but it is what it is.

And we each come from different religious backgrounds, Let's see, Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Episcopal.

 

[okay]

To me it almost seems like some of us may be internally wired to doubt more than other folks do. I can doubt almost anything at times. It can drive my wife nuts! I wonder if there is any psychological research on this topic.

Regarding faith, for a long time I thought that doubt was a sign of unfaithfulness and would try to suppress it or pretend like it wasn't there. Of course this was not healthy, spiritually or otherwise. Now I see my tendency to doubt as a built-in mechanism that gives me some humility and helps me hold on to some beliefs a little more lightly (I don't need to be certain!). I find I am comfortably in stage 5 of the model presented in the first post. My journey has roughly followed the model, although perhaps my development was on the slow side.

One benefit I have found of a 'stage 5' kind of faith is that it makes discussions with people that hold different beliefs (both from within Christianity and from other faiths) much more fascinating and enjoyable. I know that I can be wrong about things I believe, and if/when hearing new ideas causes me to doubt I am much less likely see it as threatening.

I just wish I had raised my children with a healthier view of doubt. It would have saved at least one of them a lot of difficulty and pain in their life of faith.

jason

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Now I see my tendency to doubt as a built-in mechanism that gives me some humility and helps me hold on to some beliefs a little more lightly (I don't need to be certain!).

I get that. There are some things I don't need to be certain about, like eschatology and what exactly is historical and what figurative.
In fact I am one who appreciated Non Christian religions. So a central question is , "What beliefs do I hold fast? What is non negotiable?"
So I seem to have concentric spheres of belief. The core is solid with no doubt. Other layers are more negotiable.

 

[okay]

So a central question is , "What beliefs do I hold fast? What is non negotiable?"
So I seem to have concentric spheres of belief. The core is solid with no doubt. Other layers are more negotiable.

I think I am similar, although I'm not sure I have a core about which I never doubt. I just don't think I am wired that way.

For me the core is basically summarized in the Nicene creed, and a belief that scripture has some kind of divine inspiration (although I don't claim to know exactly how that works). But I do sometimes doubt aspects of these, and when I meet followers of Jesus who don't hold to that same core I still consider them my siblings in Christ.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

How well do you tolerate doubt, uncertainty, unknowing and what do they do for your faith.

Jesus tells us:

Matthew 21:21
Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done.

And yet who among us can move a mountain into he sea?

Is the opposite of doubt faith?

Is it a character of the will or of the intellect.

Many of us pray for more faith. As if we want to believe but cannot.

And in our culture we must be skeptical. So many are out to deceive us, to scam us and toe persuade us with half truths.

Even when it comes to scripture we do well to exercise caution when it comes to literal versus figurative language.

I think for me there is a fundamental assurance that at least there is a personal God.
After that, so much is inexpressible. I don't rely on any particular interpretation of scripture.
I don't rely on any historical event other than the birth and death of Jesus.
I read it all with an openness to possibility.

I thin there may be a spectrum of our response to doubt:

1. Some people cannot tolerate it at all and then opt for a literal interpretation of scripture with black and white definite answers to any question.
2. Others, like myself, can tolerate some doubt and think there is a greater need for informed discernment on all matters.
3. Then there are the skeptics who doubt anything that does not have string objective evidence.

Naturally these three and the many in between do not agree on much of anything and it comes into every aspect from our lives from how we educate "groom" our children to who we let across our borders.

One guy who has done some research on all this is James Fowler who came up with 7 stages of faith.

View attachment 350428

The idea that we go through stages seems natural. But this relation ship between faith and doubt intrigues me because I do think doubt purifies faith so that we do not believe all sorts of crazy things.

Ok, Akita. I've been thinking a little about Fowler's Stage 3, and while I can say that it typically is the case that in early adolescence, an average person begins to think more abstractly, I do have a distinct memory of telling my mother to refrain from "shoving her religion down my throat." If my memory serves me right for my earlier teenage years (e.g. 11-16), I wasn't about to just jump into anyone's box on religion and "conform," let alone take the time away from my actual interests and study it.

However, then there's Stage 4, and when I was 17, I had a very clear and cognizant motivation that started to grow inside my mind, by which I began to find out what this "Christianity thing and its Bible" was all about. At that point, I think it's safe to say that I began [for the first time] to take on a substantial look at the Bible, religion, and what it was to deliberate about what a religious belief was and what it could be for me.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I think I am similar, although I'm not sure I have a core about which I never doubt. I just don't think I am wired that way.

For me the core is basically summarized in the Nicene creed, and a belief that scripture has some kind of divine inspiration (although I don't claim to know exactly how that works). But I do sometimes doubt aspects of these, and when I meet followers of Jesus who don't hold to that same core I still consider them my siblings in Christ.

For me even the creed is more symbolic. My core belief is an eternal, good consciousness. After that.... I am not too sure.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Ok, Akita. I've been thinking a little about Fowler's Stage 3, and while I can say that it typically is the case that in early adolescence, an average person begins to think more abstractly, I do have a distinct memory of telling my mother to refrain from "shoving her religion down my throat." If my memory serves me right for my earlier teenage years (e.g. 11-16), I wasn't about to just jump into anyone's box on religion and "conform," let alone take the time away from my actual interests and study it.

However, then there's Stage 4, and when I was 17, I had a very clear and cognizant motivation that started to grow inside my mind, by which I began to find out what this "Christianity thing and its Bible" was all about. At that point, I think it's safe to say that I began [for the first time] to take on a substantial look at the Bible, religion, and what it was to deliberate about what a religious belief was and what it could be for me.

Something called me back Fowler's stages to look at them more carefully. Of course I loaned my book to I don't know who.

So wiki says:

Description of the stages​

[edit]

No.	Fowler	Age	Piaget
0	Undifferentiated Faith	0–2 years	Sensoric-motorical
1	Intuitive- Projective	2–7 years	Pre-operational
2	Mythic- Literal	7–12 years	Concrete operational
3	Synthetic- Conventional	12+ years	Formal-operational
4	Individual-Reflective	21+ years
5	Conjunctive	35+ years
6	Universalizing	45+

• Stage 0 – "Primal or Undifferentiated" faith (birth to 2 years), is characterized by an early learning of the safety of their environment (i.e. warm, safe and secure vs. hurt, neglect and abuse). If consistent nurture is experienced, one will develop a sense of trust and safety about the universe and the divine. Conversely, negative experiences will cause one to develop distrust about the universe and the divine. Transition to the next stage begins with integration of thought and language which facilitates the use of symbols in speech and play.
• Stage 1 – "Intuitive-Projective" faith (ages of three to seven), is characterized by the psyche's unprotected exposure to the Unconscious, and marked by a relative fluidity of thought patterns.[8] Religion is learned mainly through experiences, stories, images, and the people that one comes in contact with.
• Stage 2 – "Mythic-Literal" faith (mostly in school children), is characterized by persons have a strong belief in the justice and reciprocity of the universe, and their deities are almost always anthropomorphic. During this time metaphors and symbolic language are often misunderstood and are taken literally.
• Stage 3 – "Synthetic-Conventional" faith (arising in adolescence; aged 12 to adulthood), is characterized by conformity to authority and the religious development of a personal identity. Any conflicts with one's beliefs are ignored at this stage due to the fear of threat from inconsistencies.
• Stage 4 – "Individuative-Reflective" faith (usually mid-twenties to late thirties), is a stage of angst and struggle. The individual takes personal responsibility for his or her beliefs and feelings. As one is able to reflect on one's own beliefs, there is an openness to a new complexity of faith, but this also increases the awareness of conflicts in one's belief.
• Stage 5 – "Conjunctive" faith (mid-life crisis), acknowledges paradox and transcendence relating reality behind the symbols of inherited systems. The individual resolves conflicts from previous stages by a complex understanding of a multidimensional, interdependent "truth" that cannot be explained by any particular statement.
• Stage 6 – "Universalizing" faith. The individual would treat any person with compassion as he or she views people as from a universal community, and should be treated with universal principles of love and justice.

I know there is a much more detailed description in the book. But "doubt" seems to be a necessary aspect of growth.​

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Maybe it is because I have been reading Merton's comments on John of the Cross. At some point we must let go of even our most helpful thoughts an images because they fall short of really being accurate about God. Then we must accept the abyss of a dark knowledge pure faith beyond rational thinking. I think the later stages, beginning with 4 then 5 & 6 allow for that insecurity of pure faith.

 

[public hermit]

Maybe it is because I have been reading Merton's comments on John of the Cross. At some point we must let go of even our most helpful thoughts an images because they fall short of really being accurate about God. Then we must accept the abyss of a dark knowledge pure faith beyond rational thinking. I think the later stages, beginning with 4 then 5 & 6 allow for that insecurity of pure faith.

I agree, and the commandment to have no images before God has taken on such a rich meaning for me. What greater idol can we have than our own ideas? We see through a glass darkly, and our ideas/concepts/doctrines of God certainly have some meaning and purpose, i.e., they have a referent and place our "feet" on a trajectory, but they are more like signs pointing in a particular direction than images that somehow make a one-for-one correspondence with reality. But I think the key is not to just have another idea that our ideas/concepts/doctrines fall short of the reality but to turn to God with our full awareness and desire without those ideas and, pace Fr. Keating, consent to the divine. It is a huge risk of faith, but it captures that principle of the ancient Christians that if we become empty of the world (images/ideas/desires for this or that), then we will become full of God. "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God." Just doing that for as long as we can stand it (5 minutes? 10?) and for often as we can (once or twice a day) might do more for us than a month of Sundays in church.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Just doing that for as long as we can stand it (5 minutes? 10?) and for often as we can (once or twice a day) might do more for us than a month of Sundays in church.

Yes, and even such moments greatly enhance the quality of our lives and how we live them.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Something called me back Fowler's stages to look at them more carefully. Of course I loaned my book to I don't know who.

So wiki says:

Description of the stages​

[edit]

No.	Fowler	Age	Piaget
0	Undifferentiated Faith	0–2 years	Sensoric-motorical
1	Intuitive- Projective	2–7 years	Pre-operational
2	Mythic- Literal	7–12 years	Concrete operational
3	Synthetic- Conventional	12+ years	Formal-operational
4	Individual-Reflective	21+ years
5	Conjunctive	35+ years
6	Universalizing	45+

• Stage 0 – "Primal or Undifferentiated" faith (birth to 2 years), is characterized by an early learning of the safety of their environment (i.e. warm, safe and secure vs. hurt, neglect and abuse). If consistent nurture is experienced, one will develop a sense of trust and safety about the universe and the divine. Conversely, negative experiences will cause one to develop distrust about the universe and the divine. Transition to the next stage begins with integration of thought and language which facilitates the use of symbols in speech and play.
• Stage 1 – "Intuitive-Projective" faith (ages of three to seven), is characterized by the psyche's unprotected exposure to the Unconscious, and marked by a relative fluidity of thought patterns.[8] Religion is learned mainly through experiences, stories, images, and the people that one comes in contact with.
• Stage 2 – "Mythic-Literal" faith (mostly in school children), is characterized by persons have a strong belief in the justice and reciprocity of the universe, and their deities are almost always anthropomorphic. During this time metaphors and symbolic language are often misunderstood and are taken literally.
• Stage 3 – "Synthetic-Conventional" faith (arising in adolescence; aged 12 to adulthood), is characterized by conformity to authority and the religious development of a personal identity. Any conflicts with one's beliefs are ignored at this stage due to the fear of threat from inconsistencies.
• Stage 4 – "Individuative-Reflective" faith (usually mid-twenties to late thirties), is a stage of angst and struggle. The individual takes personal responsibility for his or her beliefs and feelings. As one is able to reflect on one's own beliefs, there is an openness to a new complexity of faith, but this also increases the awareness of conflicts in one's belief.
• Stage 5 – "Conjunctive" faith (mid-life crisis), acknowledges paradox and transcendence relating reality behind the symbols of inherited systems. The individual resolves conflicts from previous stages by a complex understanding of a multidimensional, interdependent "truth" that cannot be explained by any particular statement.
• Stage 6 – "Universalizing" faith. The individual would treat any person with compassion as he or she views people as from a universal community, and should be treated with universal principles of love and justice.

I know there is a much more detailed description in the book. But "doubt" seems to be a necessary aspect of growth.​

These days, I wouldn't categorize my own religious perspective via Fowler's stages. I would rather say that I view my Christian faith through an existential, critical outlook, as I do of nearly everything. And the presence of any doubt I may have is more in the vein of Cartesian skepticism, with a felt need for interdisciplinary academic inquiry, ongoing questioning and a sense of Realism, none of which by any necessity shuts off the emergence of whatever faith I find I can have.

In all of this, I chalk one up for the role of Philosophy / Critical Thinking as a part of whatever manifestation of God's providence has indiscernibly worked its way within my life.