Double standards with underwear

Joykins said:

FWIW if this is mainly for comfort at this point, since your GF is uncomfortable with your bra, then maybe you could investigate designing a garment that provides the same support (like an undershirt with built-in cups) with more masculine styling. A "bro" if you will.

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Or whatever Dennis Rodman wears.

Archivist said:

But that wasn't always the case. Times have changed.

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There's no culture today where men wear dresses on a regular basis. Even in Japan, kimonos are more like a robe-theyre not really like a dress.

Geforcefly1 said:

It is possible that my GF and I may get married, and when it's brought up I say "when the time is right." If I propose to her and she says yes, she will move up. I don't have a house of my own and therefore live with my Mom (who is an amazing person.)

I wore bras on and off (sometimes I wouldn't wear them for years) solely for gratification until the doctor's recommendation that I actually wear one for other reasons (TMI alert: moobs and bacterial infection underneath fold from excessive sweating). The gratification I get from them now is close to zero.

It's hard to tell, for the most part, what's TMI for this forum and what isn't, especially when accurately and adequately describing what I'm trying to say. I'm one that will hold nothing back (but I do think before hitting send, so I don't embarrass or offend anyone) about my feelings. Thank you to everyone for all your input so far.

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I agree, it's hard to know when you're talking to a bunch of strangers online, what's safe to say and what isn't. I think you're a brave person for sharing what you have.

I would look into some supportive men's undershirts instead of wearing women's bras. It would completely remove the whole "is it OK to wear women's clothing" dilemma for you AND give you the comfort that you need.

So, even though it's a little off-topic; what's holding you back from proposing and getting married? Would you move out and get a house of your own if you got married?

Ho boy. Sounds like the girlfriend is another set of issues altogether, lol.

Geforcefly1 said:

It's hard to tell, for the most part, what's TMI for this forum and what isn't, especially when accurately and adequately describing what I'm trying to say. I'm one that will hold nothing back (but I do think before hitting send, so I don't embarrass or offend anyone) about my feelings. Thank you to everyone for all your input so far.

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It wasn't TMI for this forum. It was, IMO, TMI to tell your mom. My mom doesn't need to know about my underwear. The only reason I know anything about my childrens' underwear is that they are still young enough that I launder it.

I imagine it'd be hard to hide in a house where you live with other people. Unless he's holed up in his own section of the house, she's likely to see his clothes during laundry day or when things are in the hamper, etc.

Oh man, real life is more hilarious than fiction or standup comedy.

Geforcefly1 said:

Also nervous to say this , but I wear a bra solely for physical comfort (and due to my primary care doctor's suggestion) and my Mom considers it a sin, solely because I'm male.

Taking sexual gratification out of the equation, what would you think?

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I think you're awesome! Seriously, dude, thumbs up.

Fortunately for me, I have a man's chest and not "breasts," so, I have no need of a bra for "support." I had no idea doctors even recommended those things for some men. Learn something new everyday. Thanks for sharing.

Hey, but thank God for homosexuals and bisexual men, or men's underwear would be totally boring.

If you're unaware of these designers and providers of men's underwear Down Under, I'm going to hip you to an awesome company to purchase classed up underwear from. Aussie Bum. Check them out. I bought several pair from them several years ago. The briefs with the "pouch." Colorful and well designed too. They don't strangulate your "male region" either.

But thanks to that young man on youtube that's a fashion consultant, "alpha m," I'm going to eventually try out the French garcon brand.

Archivist said:

Of course it isn't just underwear. It is considered acceptable for women to wear men's shirts and pants, but it is generally unacceptable for men to wear dresses or other forms of women's clothing. I was wearing a kilt at a Ren Faire one time, and got yelled at by some old coot who said that I must be "queer" since I was wearing a skirt. I told him that he was an idiot if he did not know what a kilt was.

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LOL!!! You two had me cracking up. I almost rolled out the chair. Pure gut buster. It's really awesome when you're the reader trying to picture that whole scenario in you're head.

Yeah, those Scots were pretty crazy and as manly as anyone, irrespective of wearing their traditional man skirts they call kilts. The old dude certainly was unaware of that. Book him a flight to Scotland next time. A country of fist fighters and knife fighters.

Of course, this does go both ways. Men can go topless in many places; women generally cannot do so.

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Eh... I wouldn't say "many places." I would say outdoors and in indoor pools mainly. Most other spaces in the United States--be they public buildings or private property--require males to have a shirt on (or jacket or something).

The real crime is putting bars on boys bicycles, whereas female bikes have none. That's just pure sadistic. I can't count the number of times I've cracked my you know what... on those bars as a boy. Of course, we used like to pull stunts and ride rough on our bikes, too, so accidents were prone.

Geforcefly1 said:

Nervous to start this, but here I go...

Double standards are many in this world, but the one that grinds my gears the most is one of underwear. Here's how I interpret this:

Women can wear men's or women's underwear and it's 100% accepted.
Men that wear women's underwear is 100% unacceptable.
I also understand that a significant portion of men's and women's underwear are very close to or exactly the same.

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It's not considered 100% unacceptable. Plenty of people accept that some men enjoy/prefer/need to wear 'female' garments. Personally, I would not have a problem with my boyfriend wearing women's clothes/underwear. He has expressed no desire to do so, but if he did it would not bother me. I wear his clothes sometimes, so why would I hold a double standard?

I suspect it has more to do with the fact that most women's clothes are designed for fashion (useless non-pockets and too-tight-to-actually-move skirts, anyone?) whereas a lot of 'male' clothing is built for comfort and utility. Not a lot of guys want to look like a fashionable woman, but lots of women want comfortable and utilitarian clothes. This leads to more women wearing men's clothes then men wearing women's clothes.

Also nervous to say this , but I wear a bra solely for physical comfort (and due to my primary care doctor's suggestion) and my Mom considers it a sin, solely because I'm male.

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You need some extra support. There's nothing wrong with that. A lot of men do, but don't make the logical leap to a bra because it's 'for girls'. Kudos to you for wearing something that makes you comfortable even if it isn't the common thing to do.

A lot of men wear women's underwear because they enjoy it. It isn't necessarily a sex thing (although sometimes it is), but often they are just enjoying exploring their feminine side. That doesn't sound like you though. You're not trying to look or feel like a woman. You're trying to look and feel like a man with a comfortable upper torso. To me, that means you're wearing men's underwear - for the upper body where most men don't wear it, perhaps, but still men's underwear nonetheless.

My advice? Tell you Mom it's none of her business, and find a girlfriend who cares more about you feeling good and comfortable than you conforming to constructed gender norms.

Geforcefly1 said:

I've been praying over this too to find out what God says is the right thing to do. I forgot to say in the OP that also my GF (longest distance relationship) says no to this.

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Does she tolerate you telling her how to dress?

A male or female feminist would demand--and try and to indoctrinate young boys--that a female can never bathe, crawl around in the dirt, dress like a broken down homeless woman, chew tobacco spitting out of a chair, have the mannerisms of a man, and you should still loooooooooove her for "who she is inside."

Superhero Sam said:

That's because shirts and pants are considered "genderless" or unisex clothing, unlike skirts.

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That was not always so. Trousers used to be principally (not always exclusively--depending on what activities the woman was engaged in) worn by men. Hence the old expression, "Who wears the pants in the house?"

Denim is common place today and even worn in casual and some business settings, dressed up with sports coat and dress shoes or dress boots. But prior to the 1960s very few Americans, even teenage boys, wore jeans during the weekday. Boys went to school dressed in dress slacks or khakis or what they call chinos.

Actually, look at some of the old videos of the Civil Rights Movement showing the first black kids desegregating public schools. They--and other kids (e.g., white kids)--were dressed like they were on their way to Sunday church.

The way we dress sends out messages though. Our attire is usually symbolic of something. This is true of young kids walking around with baggy jeans hanging down their butts.

Blind post:

It's a stupid double standard that makes no sense when anyone thinks about it. I think the root of the problem is that it is considered extremely negative for a man to be "effeminate" in any degree.

A woman is already female. There are definitely people who are against women being "masculine" or associating with male things or dress (I crossdress and have experienced this firsthand and very often), but it's much harsher towards men who have anything to do with t hi get associating with female dress or interest.

Keep being strong All the nonsense about there being a divide between "girl" things and "boy" things is just that: nonsense. You are correct when you say underwear is the same, because it is. For some reason humans put weird values on things that don't really matter.

SuperCloud said:

Does she tolerate you telling her to dress?

A male or female feminist would demand--and try and to indoctrinate young boys--that a female can never bathe, crawl around in the dirt, dress like a broken down homeless woman, chew tobacco spitting out of a chair, have the mannerisms of a man, and you should still loooooooooove her for "who she is inside."

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I think it is funny how many people seem to be automatically assuming that his girlfriend is a feminist, and then telling us what a 'feminist' would demand, as if it has any bearing on the conversation at all.

'Oh hey guys look it's a topic about gender in society let's see if we can shoehorn some man-hating smelly unshaven strawman feminists into the conversation somewhere.'

Geforcefly1 said:

Nervous to start this, but here I go...

Double standards are many in this world, but the one that grinds my gears the most is one of underwear. Here's how I interpret this:

Women can wear men's or women's underwear and it's 100% accepted.
Men that wear women's underwear is 100% unacceptable.
I also understand that a significant portion of men's and women's underwear are very close to or exactly the same.

Also nervous to say this , but I wear a bra solely for physical comfort (and due to my primary care doctor's suggestion) and my Mom considers it a sin, solely because I'm male.

Taking sexual gratification out of the equation, what would you think?

And I apologize in advance if I rattled any one of you.

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With the vast majority of people I don´t even know what sort of underwear they wear. So usually I am not under any pressure to even consider what is acceptable or unacceptable.
Now, if for example, you were in my Badminton team and we would share the changing room, I might find myself surprised by your preference of underwear - but it wouldn´t up to me to accept or not accept it. Actually, I wouldn´t even know how to not accept it.
I guess I am not quite sure what the issue even is. Extravagant fashion statements get more attention than the good ol´ usual adn conventional stuff, I guess.

Geforce,

Homie, why don't you just work out. It is true some people by no fault of their own, due to the genetics and physiology of their body, have a more difficult time losing weight than the norm in society.

Kind of like naturally thin men with high metabolisms have a very difficult time putting on muscle mass.

That said, it's a lot more difficult for thin men to pack on muscle mass than for naturally bigger structured men to loss body fat. Absent the use of steroids, packing on muscle "naturally" for the former is near microscopic per year, and that's working out (along with dieting) with the same effort obese people use to lose fat and weight.

Some men like myself will work in such a way as to lose body fat and build muscle mass too. Something some claim is impossible, but I know first hand it is not. Currently, I'm not working out, so, I've gained some body fat I lost. But I'm ecto-morph or thin built by nature with an annoying fast metabolism, so, I'm not overweight, I'm just not as "cut" as I'd prefer. By late fall I think I was down to about 19% body fat roughly (today I'm probably at 22% body fat). Nothing spectacular, but very reasonable for my age range and weight. I think about 16% to 17% would be ideal for me aesthetically.

But I was hitting the thread mill for several months, at least 3 times a week for at least 20 minutes each run (usually 30 minutes to 40 minutes). And I did a modified (my personal modification) version of the famous "300" movie workout. Overtime I add quite a number of exercises into that program I had. But from the beginning I dropped the 50 reps to 25 reps. And the weight was modified by me, too, as the program was designed for men standing at least 6 ft tall and weight at least 200 lbs. I'm much smaller then that. And the "300" workout is really an endurance workout, not a strength, power, or mass builder workout. But I gained muscle mass from it anyways. But again, I added quite a number of additional exercises to it. Plus, I had to drop a couple exercises (like the box jumping) from the program because I had no access to that equipment.

And I did that 3 twice a week and twice a day on those days. And 1 day a week I worked out on my legs and did that twice on those days.

It could take me 10 years of tormenting exercise and a strict diet to gain in muscle mass weight what would take an extremely obese person 1 year to lose in fat weight using the same biological level of energy.

So, I'm saying, there is another resolution to your dilemma if bacteria infection and folds of fat are a real problem in your life.

I don't post this to berate or shame you or to compare myself as better. But when I read that post where you said you have a bacterial infection issue, I was like... :o .

Also, a lot of people (because only a minority of the population pumps iron or works out) don't realize how difficult it is for naturally thin men to put on muscle mass. People think it's easy and astronomically difficult for naturally big people to cut fat down on their body.

SuperCloud said:

The real crime is putting bars on boys bicycles, whereas female bikes have none. That's just pure sadistic. I can't count the number of times I've cracked my you know what... on those bars as a boy. Of course, we used like to pull stunts and ride rough on our bikes, too, so accidents were prone.

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Women's hybrid and mountain bikes often have that bar--my bike does. I have racked myself on it and I honestly don't know how you guys stand it. It hurts me and I don't even have testicles!

Jade Margery said:

I think it is funny how many people seem to be automatically assuming that his girlfriend is a feminist, and then telling us what a 'feminist' would demand, as if it has any bearing on the conversation at all.

'Oh hey guys look it's a topic about gender in society let's see if we can shoehorn some man-hating smelly unshaven strawman feminists into the conversation somewhere.'

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I don't know if you're being obtuse (a typical trait I find among feminist concerning men facing any dilemma, unless that male is an alpha male) or simply struggle in the area of reading comprehension.

But I did not make the declarative statement or insinuation you attribute to me. A nice strawman though.

I don't know how you got that from this:

Me:

Does she tolerate you telling her to dress?

A male or female feminist would demand

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I asked if his girlfriend tolerates him telling her how to dress. Then I began the next paragraph not speaking of his girlfriend but a feminist (like a American, or a democrat, or a person) and clear noted that a feminist can be a man (or female). So, if a feminist is a man how would I be talking about his girlfriend as a feminist?

I said what a feminist would argue and indoctrinate in the minds of boys. And given the thread is about double standards between the male and female sex per gender rules and gender identity, and given feminist have an extra ordinary, near god-like, influence on the culture and minds of Americans and Europeans, I think it's relevant and fine.

I also never said nor insinuated feminists (who once again, can be men, as most American men are feminists in that they militantly subscribe to feminist holy doctrine) are man-hating, smelly, and unshaven. I said feminists--be they male or female--will try to indoctrinate boys with the belief that they should love any female that is smelly and dirty and has the mannerisms of a man and lover her simply for "who she is."

Female feminists love men. Most of them anyways. They love alpha males, to a lesser extent beta males whom most of them will marry after being rejected enough times by alpha males who will marry alpha females.

However, female and male feminists alike absolutely disdain omega males. Not that some won't fake sincere concern for them, they will, but there unemotional, no empathy remarks, problem solving responses reveals their true feelings. An alpha male stubs his toe and they are falling over themselves not to offer problem solving responses but emotional support and empathy.

Female feminist also would have a fit if men offered problem solving responses to their "female dilemmas" like how big, bad, patriarchal society judges women by their looks. Suggesting she lose some of the 300 lbs makes a man a misogynistic, uncaring, pig. In Female feminist eyes. Because a "good man" would not offer problem solving responses, but simply *feel* with them and be understanding and attack society along with them.

SuperCloud said:

I don't know if you're being obtuse (a typical trait I find among feminist concerning men facing any dilemma, unless that male is an alpha male) or simply struggle in the area of reading comprehension.

But I did not make the declarative statement or insinuation you attribute to me. A nice strawman though.

I don't know how you got that from this:

Me:
I asked if his girlfriend tolerates him telling her how to dress. Then I began the next paragraph not speaking of his girlfriend but a feminist (like a American, or a democrat, or a person) and clear noted that a feminist can be a man (or female). So, if a feminist is a man how would I be talking about his girlfriend as a feminist?

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You are not the only one who has brought up feminists on this thread. Or did you not comprehend that part of my post when you read it?

Also, this is pretty silly. As you said, a feminist could be a man or a woman... so you could totally be talking about his girlfriend when you brought up feminists. In fact, if you weren't talking about his girlfriend, what relevance would the second paragraph even have to the conversation?

Not that it had much anyway, obviously.

I said what a feminist would argue and indoctrinate in the minds of boys. And given the thread is about double standards between the male and female sex per gender rules and gender identity, and given feminist have an extra ordinary, near god-like, influence on the culture and minds of Americans and Europeans, I think it's relevant and fine.

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Extraordinary near god-like influence that leads people like you to put words in our mouths and malign us in every vaguely related discussion. GOD LIKE POWERS I TELL YOU.

Perhaps the opinion of feminists on whether men should or should not wear women's clothing would be relevant to this discussion.... not that you actually know what a feminist's opinion would be on that matter, since you clearly aren't one.

A feminist's opinion on what qualities a man should find attractive in a woman is not relevant. Again, not that you actually know what that would be.

I also never said nor insinuated feminists (who once again, can be men, as most American men are feminists in that they militantly subscribe to feminist holy doctrine) are man-hating, smelly, and unshaven. I said feminists--be they male or female--will try to indoctrinate boys with the belief that they should love any female that is smelly and dirty and has the mannerisms of a man and lover her simply for "who she is."

Female feminists love men. Most of them anyways. They love alpha males, to a lesser extent beta males whom most of them will marry after being rejected enough times by alpha males who will marry alpha females.

However, female and male feminists alike absolutely disdain omega males. Not that some won't fake sincere concern for them, they will, but there unemotional, no empathy remarks, problem solving responses reveals their true feelings. An alpha male stubs his toe and they are falling over themselves not to offer problem solving responses but emotional support and empathy.

Female feminist also would have a fit if men offered problem solving responses to their "female dilemmas" like how big, bad, patriarchal society judges women by their looks. Suggesting she lose some of the 300 lbs makes a man a misogynistic, uncaring, pig. In Female feminist eyes. Because a "good man" would not offer problem solving responses, but simply *feel* with them and be understanding and attack society along with them.

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See, this! What part of the OP's question has anything to do with beta/alpha/omega males, or women's responses to problem solving suggestions? You see a topic about gender, and it's just an excuse to pull out all of your favorite talking points about how terrible feminists are.