Double Predestination?

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Chosen210

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And yes...we are finite...just as good a reason for NOT embracing Calvinism as it is for not embracing other ideas as well.[/QUOTE]

John Calvin did not invent predestination. He did not come up with some radical idea. It is extremely biblical that predestination does exist. And if the reason we dont believe (due to our finite minds) in such doctrines because we dont understand "why?" or some "Hows?, which are mysteries of God, and then not embracing a doctrine due to not understanding those things, then you might as well not embrace most of scripture.
 
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folk_rocker_4jc

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John Calvin did not invent predestination. He did not come up with some radical idea. It is extremely biblical that predestination does exist.





While it is true that there is a theological theme in scripture of "election" or "predestination" in the Bible, it is not as readily apparent that the view that Calvin had on it is true to the original thought of the Biblical authors. It is possible to take one piece of a particular teacher's writings, strike a new tangent, and come up with an altogether different idea than the original. For instance, it is now apparent that Calvin himself never endorsed the idea of a "limited" atonement, but was actually a tangent struck by Beza and those who followed after.



Similarly, IMHO Jesus and the NT authors wouldn’t recognize their view in many of their interpreters, Calvin included. It may interest you to know that the early church prior to Augustine held a view of such things pretty identical to the Arminians. (Although the Catholic church has with good reason protested that Augustine himself was not the prototypical “Calvinist” –yet another example of what I’m referring to.) Read the early church fathers for yourself, and also take a look at Thomas Oden’s “The Transforming Power of Grace” for good historical theology on this.



As long as the language of “choice” remains in the Bible, I pretty much intend on explaining God’s truths according the “choices” we are given.
 
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orthotomeo

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John Calvin did not invent predestination. He did not come up with some radical idea.

True, kind of. It is an established fact that Calvin inherited his views on predestination form Augustine, the first Roman Catholic, who in turn drew his take on predestination from the assumptions of Greek philosophy, combined with allegoriezed (i.e., easy to disregard) Scripture.

So Calvin's Calvinism is, at least in part, the result of mixing the Word of God with pagan Gentile philosophy. Sorry to put it so bluntly, but I'll paste a link for you here so you can examine the evidence and decide for yourself.

o.
 
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folk_rocker_4jc

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True, kind of. It is an established fact that Calvin inherited his views on predestination from Augustine, the first Roman Catholic, who in turn drew his take on predestination from the assumptions of Greek philosophy, combined with allegoriezed (i.e., easy to disregard) Scripture.


I also cited an article by a Catholic scholar that would lead one to believe Calvin wasn't as loyal to Augustine as many have supposed. You can view it on another forum, by going here and scrolling down to post #63 http://www.christianforums.com/t58122&page=7
 
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folk_rocker_4jc

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Possibly. But the fact remains that Calvin cited Augustine as a great authority ("On the authority of Augustine..." and whatnot), and clearly shared Augustine's basic assumptions on the nature of God, as did Luther (who, lest we forget, was an Augustinian monk).
I took a brief look a the article you reccomended and one minor problem with it is that it assumes that Augustine was the 1st in Christianity to come up with such ideas as "immutability", etc. I think the correct villian here may not be Augustine, but Anselm.
 
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folk_rocker_4jc

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Ok, I took a look at the Catholic encyclopedia and got the correct dates on Anselm.

One of themain reasons Calvin cited Augustine so extensively was that he was debating with Roman Catholic scholars. They respected the great St. of Hippo, and Calvin used him to nail them on their theology. I'd still maintain that that was more his "spin" on Augusitne than anything.
 
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folk_rocker_4jc

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The Quest for Truth: Answering Life's Inescapable Questions
by F. Leroy Forlines, J. Matthew Pinson, Stephen M. Ashby



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A practical yet scholarly work of theology, August 6, 2001
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][size=-1]Reviewer: Thomas David Morris from Nashville, TN [/size][/font]Perhaps no study is needed in churches today more than this cogent study by F. Leroy Forlines. The work is comprehensive, balanced, and in touch with contemporary thought. The approach of the work is especailly refreshing. The author effectively interacts with the postmodern mindset so prevalent today. In addition, the author pursues in systematic fashion a biblical alternative to the fatalistic bent of current works of theology. This book pursues the biblical course of 'influence and response' and provides irrefutable logic concerning the true meaning and effectiveness of such weighty matters as atonement, predestination, election, and perseverence. For those seeking a more biblical alternative to Calvinistic theologies, this is a must-have work. All in all the book is engaging and extremely worthy of thoughtful study.
 
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folk_rocker_4jc

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The Works of James Arminius
by James Nichols, William Nichols, James Arminius

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If you want to know what Arminius taught, read his works..., September 15, 2003


[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][size=-1]Reviewer: bill_the_great (see more about me) from Interlochen, MI [/size][/font]
There's probably not a single Christian theologian who is as misrepresented as James Arminius (except for maybe Augustine). Most critiques of his theology focus on the more extreme descendents of his teaching and almost never interact with his works on there own. Most don't even quote him!


So how did this humble and devout man become so hated in many evangelical circles? Arminius studied under Theodore Beza and drew large crowds in the Netherlands with his expositional preaching. However, one day two ministers came from a debate with a Catholic humanist named Dirck Coornhert, whom they felt exposed Beza's supralapsarianism as making God the author of sin, and asked Arminius to analyze the charges and refute them. After careful study, Arminius concluded that the supralapsarian theory, and Calvinist predestination in general, contradicted the Bible. Although no one refuted his arguments directly, that didn't stop people from attacking him publicly. Finally, Arminius asked for a national Synod to resolve the question. He died awaiting the trial. Eventually a Synod (at Dort in Holland) was called and basically condemned Arminius' followers in a kangaroo court-style.

Although the scholastic style of writing that Arminius employs is a bit tough for the modern theological reader and torture for the layman. These works are essential to understanding how the Bible explains the tension between the man's will and God's grace. In addition, few Arminian commentaries or systematic theology books come even close to the careful exegesis and irenic spirit displayed by Arminius. The highlights, in my opinion, are his declaration of sentiments (which would be the best introduction to his works for the layman) and his analysis of Romans 7 and 9. His exegesis of both chapters is rarely interacted by Calvinists.
 
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folk_rocker_4jc

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Arminius - A Study in the Dutch Reformation
by Carl Bangs




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The Story of the *Real* Arminius and the Dutch Reformation, January 24, 2000

[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][size=-1]Reviewer: A reader from Canberra, Australia [/size][/font]
This book gives an outstanding insight into the real Arminius (c1559-1609), a second generation Dutch Reformer and one of the most important scholars involved in codifying a biblically based alternative to predestinarian Calvinism. The book details the development of Arminius' theological position and his interactions with the clergy and laity of The Netherlands and beyond. Calvinist old wives tales about Arminius and Arminians are debunked, the story of the coming of the Reformation to Holland is followed by the introduction of hard line Calvinism by refugees from the south. Although the book focuses on Arminus' life, the epilogue deals with the events immediately following his death, such as the Remonstrance and the kangaroo court (otherwise known as the Synod of Dort) that followed where some Arminians were imprisoned and Jan van Oldenbarnevelt, the grand old man of the Remonstrants and Dutch public life, was executed on trumped up charges of treason. In the words of Bangs, the conventional history of the Dutch Reformation is that "Calvinism came in, Arminius nearly ruined it, the Synod of Dort restored it. This book is dedicated to the proposition that it isn't as simple as that." This much needed book is an outstanding read, both from a historical and theological viewpoint.


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A Reasoning Man, September 1, 2001
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][size=-1]Reviewer: Randy Hoffman (see more about me) from Seaford, VA USA [/size][/font]Jacobus Arminius walked a fine line between following his own reasoned theology and trying to survive in the face of a strict Calvanist political environment. Carl Bangs has provided an excellent accounting of how Arminius managed to develop and teach his beliefs in the midst of bitter opposition. Bangs clearly does not present Arminius as a hero, but rather as a man who survived on principle and faith in a hostile world. The reader is treated to a well-written sotry of one man's spiritual journey. Thank you to Carl Bangs his insights into this little known scholar.
 
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Ben johnson

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In my esteem, there really is no such thing as "single predestination". If all men exist as TOTALLY DEPRAVED, and CANNOT come to believe in Jesus except for His "unilateral regeneration of their hearts", if the ELECT would have PERISHED if not for that unilateral regeneration, then the UNELECTION was just as much God's choice as ELECTION.

Neglecting them to their condemnation means that God made THEIR choice FOR them. Negligence is just as active an action as "election". Thus --- only "double-predestination" exists.

(...or not...)
 
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orthotomeo

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I know there are Calvinists who accept election but not active reprobation. But I'm still waiting to see one explain his authority for disagreeing with Calvin.

Anyone know of any books by Calvinists making a case against God actively reprobating some to the Lake of Fire?

And what "point" Calvinist (0-5) would that be, anyway?

o.
 
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