Double Predestination/Predestinarianism

[JM]

Sorry Alfred if I seem rude. It just seems like you are taking the Arminian stance with a few twists here and there, and the twists are with language not theology.

 

[abacabb3]

Unfortunately for your exegesis, the text provides the reason the strong delusion had success, making this an example of active but passive hardening...
Had they loved the truth, the strong delusion would not deceive them.

Our difference is NOT semantic, you propose God uses evil to tempt man, a direct contradiction of apostolic doctrine

God sent the delusion, how is that passive? DO you deprive God the ability to punish sinful people for their sin?

You have philosophical issues with the idea, but that is what the Scripture says.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Sorry Alfred if I seem rude. It just seems like you are taking the Arminian stance with a few twists here and there, and the twists are with language not theology.

That's not rude, just ignorant of what I said. I know its long, but its not Arminian at all.

 

[Alfred Persson]

God sent the delusion, how is that passive? DO you deprive God the ability to punish sinful people for their sin?

You have philosophical issues with the idea, but that is what the Scripture says.

God sent it, but He didn't ordain it must be accepted. They chose to accept it, by not loving the truth.

Rat poison might be sent to your house, but if you choose to ignore the warnings and eat it, wasn't it your fault you died?

Yes, it was.

It is active in that it was sent, passive in that no one forced you to eat it.

 

[abacabb3]

God sent it, but He didn't ordain it must be accepted. They chose to accept it, by not loving the truth.

They chose to accept it, but God wanted them to. Just as in Rev 17:17 that states: " For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled." God has a purpose in mind, he effectively puts it in their hearts to accept the delusion. Now, we know God tempts no one to evil, but God is ordaining evil for His purposes, this is undeniable.

As stated earlier on this thread, a man not born again is inclined towards evil all the time. Give an evil man a gun, what does he do with it? Evil. Give an evil man a cake, what does he still do with it? Evil. SO, God can harden an already evil man, by doing nothing explicitly evil to him. He can simply do anything to that man's heart and the man will naturally respond evil. God knows this and directs the evil of man, such as in the crucifixion, towards His good purposes.

 

[Alfred Persson]

They chose to accept it, but God wanted them to. Just as in Rev 17:17 that states: " For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled." God has a purpose in mind, he effectively puts it in their hearts to accept the delusion. Now, we know God tempts no one to evil, but God is ordaining evil for His purposes, this is undeniable.

As stated earlier on this thread, a man not born again is inclined towards evil all the time. Give an evil man a gun, what does he do with it? Evil. Give an evil man a cake, what does he still do with it? Evil. SO, God can harden an already evil man, by doing nothing explicitly evil to him. He can simply do anything to that man's heart and the man will naturally respond evil. God knows this and directs the evil of man, such as in the crucifixion, towards His good purposes.

Your illustration supports me, against you. An evil man? But your need is to prove God made him evil, overrode his free will, to accomplish a purpose.

Giving an evil man space to do evil, is my position, passive hardening.

 

[JM]

Again, your disagreement may be largely semantic.

Alfred is not reading your posts abacabb3. They are well thought-out and display the obvious.

Thank you.

 

[abacabb3]

Alfred is not reading your posts abacabb3. They are well thought-out and display the obvious.

Thank you.

I think he is misreading them, because he does have an agenda. Shield God from all evil. It's a good agenda, but we don't want to commit errors of logic or theology when doing so.

 

[abacabb3]

Your illustration supports me, against you. An evil man? But your need is to prove God made him evil, overrode his free will, to accomplish a purpose.

Giving an evil man space to do evil, is my position, passive hardening.

Again, this is why I said we are arguing semantics. This position has been fleshed out in pages 1 through 3. Man is fully responsible and God is fully in control.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I think he is misreading them, because he does have an agenda. Shield God from all evil. It's a good agenda, but we don't want to commit errors of logic or theology when doing so.

They chose to accept it, but God wanted them to. Just as in Rev 17:17 that states: " For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled." God has a purpose in mind, he effectively puts it in their hearts to accept the delusion. Now, we know God tempts no one to evil, but God is ordaining evil for His purposes, this is undeniable.

As stated earlier on this thread, a man not born again is inclined towards evil all the time. Give an evil man a gun, what does he do with it? Evil. Give an evil man a cake, what does he still do with it? Evil. SO, God can harden an already evil man, by doing nothing explicitly evil to him. He can simply do anything to that man's heart and the man will naturally respond evil. God knows this and directs the evil of man, such as in the crucifixion, towards His good purposes.


You cite the beast as not being an evil man?

Try proving that first, then the claim I misread your illustration.

 

[Alfred Persson]

They chose to accept it, but God wanted them to. Just as in Rev 17:17 that states: " For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled." God has a purpose in mind, he effectively puts it in their hearts to accept the delusion. Now, we know God tempts no one to evil, but God is ordaining evil for His purposes, this is undeniable.

As stated earlier on this thread, a man not born again is inclined towards evil all the time. Give an evil man a gun, what does he do with it? Evil. Give an evil man a cake, what does he still do with it? Evil. SO, God can harden an already evil man, by doing nothing explicitly evil to him. He can simply do anything to that man's heart and the man will naturally respond evil. God knows this and directs the evil of man, such as in the crucifixion, towards His good purposes.


You cite the beast as not being an evil man?

Try proving that first, then the claim I misread your illustration.

 

[abacabb3]

They chose to accept it, but God wanted them to. Just as in Rev 17:17 that states: " For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled." God has a purpose in mind, he effectively puts it in their hearts to accept the delusion. Now, we know God tempts no one to evil, but God is ordaining evil for His purposes, this is undeniable.

As stated earlier on this thread, a man not born again is inclined towards evil all the time. Give an evil man a gun, what does he do with it? Evil. Give an evil man a cake, what does he still do with it? Evil. SO, God can harden an already evil man, by doing nothing explicitly evil to him. He can simply do anything to that man's heart and the man will naturally respond evil. God knows this and directs the evil of man, such as in the crucifixion, towards His good purposes.


You cite the beast as not being an evil man?

Try proving that first, then the claim I misread your illustration.

This is what I am talking about misreading. The beast is evil and God put it in men's hearts to commend themselves to the beast in Rev 17:17.

 

[Alfred Persson]

This is what I am talking about misreading. The beast is evil and God put it in men's hearts to commend themselves to the beast in Rev 17:17.

Illustration fail. You want to show God hardening the heart of a man to do evil, who would likely have not done so, if left alone.

That would prove your active hardening of hearts.

Showing those inclined to do evil, do so, is not proving your point at all.

The horns are all evil rulers also.

Try again.

 

[abacabb3]

Alfred, do you want a positive dialogue or do we want to be talking like "C4lv1ni5t fail! All you base belong to us!"

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred, do you want a positive dialogue or do we want to be talking like "C4lv1ni5t fail! All you base belong to us!"

Precise dialogue, yes. Stand up for your position, don't adopt sloppy illustrations that actually are my position.

And then claim I'm misreading them.

You say God hardens hearts to do evil. Then produce clear, unambiguous examples of God doing precisely that. Where He directly hardens a heart, so the person who went to sleep not wanting to go against God, wakes up on fire to rebel against him...or something like that.

You find where God takes the credit, for making someone go against their will, compelling a good or neutral heart to work evil.

Find a text that says God's creative energy created within someone, an irresistible compulsion to go against their free will. Where "hardening energy" flowed from God, changing an otherwise soft heart. Where a compulsion was inserted hardening the heart, to do evil.

Otherwise, its just your theory, contradicts apostolic doctrine God does not insert evil inside a person's heart:

13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. (Jam 1:13-15 NKJ)

My position agrees with James, follows what Paul says God did with Pharaoh, He withheld mercy and compassion, that is passive hardening. By permitting Pharaoh's magicians Jannes and Jambres work miracles, Pharaoh's heart was convinced he could successfully resist God's demands.

God did not tempt with evil thoughts, give Pharaoh the idea he should "rebel against God, don't let His children go".

God did NOT do that. He did NOT tempt with evil. What He did, was allow the magicians work miracles, and then Pharaoh's heart became hard, thinking to himself "Aha! I can fight against God, follow my own evil desires because with my magicians I am equal to the God of Israel!"

So God created the environment where the evil heart is allowed to manifest itself. God doesn't overrule free will, He gives it reasons to believe it can succeed. The wicked are following their own desires, that when conceived, bring forth death. Never does God overrule a person's will. He does not make anyone do what they didn't want to do. That was Paul's point when he said:

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
(Rom 9:14-16 NKJ)

Otherwise, Pharaoh was smart enough to know he couldn't fight God and win. He would strongly desire to fight God, but wouldn't try. It was the miracles God allowed Satan do, that "hardened his heart" against obeying God.

That is my position. Don't adopt it as yours, its not.

Stand up for your position, produce clear unambiguous proofs for it.

 

[abacabb3]

With your whole attitude, I don't feel like talking to you specifically about this. Sad that this is a forum for "Christians."

 

[Alfred Persson]

With your whole attitude, I don't feel like talking to you specifically about this. Sad that this is a forum for "Christians."

Your consistent ad hominem belies any claim you wanted to discuss this.

Nothing wrong with my attitude at all, I asked for clarity, precision.

You should have welcomed that, not mislabel it as "attitude."

Fact is, there are no scriptural proofs for your position, only your misreading of scripture.

Paul taught passive hardening, that God withholds mercy and compassion, by allowing evil people be deceived. They do what they wanted to do, what they freely chose to do. God withholds mercy and compassion, when He allows their reprobate mind be deceived by events so they do their evil thinking there will be no consequences.

Or His Holy Spirit stops convicting men of sin via their conscience, and it becomes seared by their preference for evil.

He never overrides free will, never suggests people do evil, or tempt them to do evil. Rather He permits events occur that allow they act out their evil desires, so they get what they deserve.

God permits events occur so they harden their own hearts in the wrong way, once their evil deeds are done, then He can punish them according to their deeds, according to what He knows they actually deserve, lest any escape the full length, depth and height of His Holy wrath.

God has the Sovereign right to create the environment in which wicked desire and will, grows to maturity and then action, to serve His own purpose when He punishes that evil in full view of all creation, so making His Holy Name known.

 

[JM]

skala gives examples:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7816545/#post65400096

Getting back to the subject:

God closed the eye of those He will punish (Isaiah 29:9-12), do not pray for reprobate (Jeremiah 7:16), the son of perdition was lost on purpose, to fulfill scripture (John 17:12), some are vessels of fitted for destruction (Romans 9:21-22), some are blinded (Romans 11:7), some men were ordained to condemnation (Jude 4), God led Egypt astray (Isaiah 19:14), Pharaoh was reprobate for a purpose (Exodus 9:16), God created the wicked for the day of evil (Proverbs 16:4) and we read in the parable that some will not see the Gospel and be hardened. That is evil, wicked men are hardened further by God. (Luke 8:10)

Predestination is double.

 

[Alfred Persson]

[FONT=&quot]

skala gives examples:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7816545/#post65400096

Getting back to the subject:

God closed the eye of those He will punish (Isaiah 29:9-12), do not pray for reprobate (Jeremiah 7:16), the son of perdition was lost on purpose, to fulfill scripture (John 17:12), some are vessels of fitted for destruction (Romans 9:21-22), some are blinded (Romans 11:7), some men were ordained to condemnation (Jude 4), God led Egypt astray (Isaiah 19:14), Pharaoh was reprobate for a purpose (Exodus 9:16), God created the wicked for the day of evil (Proverbs 16:4) and we read in the parable that some will not see the Gospel and be hardened. That is evil, wicked men are hardened further by God. (Luke 8:10)

Predestination is double.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God closed the eye of those He will punish (Isaiah 29:9-12), [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yes, God withheld mercy and compassion, in response to their hypocrisy. They chose evil, therefore God no longer illuminates their mind. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Therefore the Lord said: "Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths And honor Me with their lips, But have removed their hearts far from Me, And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 14 Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work Among this people, A marvelous work and a wonder; For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden." (Isa 29:13-14 NKJ)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This is "passive hardening," they chose the wrong way, therefore they reap what they sow. No violation of their free will here, they blinded themselves first, everything after that, is giving them what the chose:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Pause and wonder! Blind yourselves and be blind! They are drunk, but not with wine; They stagger, but not with intoxicating drink (Isa 29:9 NKJ)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]do not pray for reprobate (Jeremiah 7:16), [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ripped out of context to teach God causes men to do evil, when in fact these are reprobate because they rejected God. He rose up early speaking, earnestly trying to reason with them, yet they rejected Him. Therefore they are reprobate, because that is what they chose to be.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Read in context, its no longer a pretext teaching God inspires evil:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "And now, because you have done all these works," says the LORD, "and I spoke to you, rising up early and speaking, but you did not hear, and I called you, but you did not answer,[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 14 "therefore I will do to the house which is called by My name, in which you trust, and to this place which I gave to you and your fathers, as I have done to Shiloh.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 15 "And I will cast you out of My sight, as I have cast out all your brethren-- the whole posterity of Ephraim.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 16 "Therefore do not pray for this people, nor lift up a cry or prayer for them, nor make intercession to Me; for I will not hear you. (Jer 7:13-16 NKJ)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]the son of perdition was lost on purpose, to fulfill scripture (John 17:12)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ripped out of context, parallel texts prove it was Judas who lifted up his heel, not God:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled,`He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.' (Joh 13:18 NKJ)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]some are vessels of fitted for destruction (Romans 9:21-22)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ripped out of context, you ignored Paul's explanation how God hardens hearts:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13[/FONT][FONT=&quot] As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not![/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. (Rom 9:13-16 NKJ)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Withholding Mercy and compassion to harden is PASSIVE, not active. Active requires "hardening energy flowing from God hardening the heart, and that is NOT what Paul says happens.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Paul cites Pharaoh illustrating how that vessel of wrath was fitted for destruction, God withheld mercy and compassion---did not prevent his magicians from confirming his free will desire to resist God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11[/FONT][FONT=&quot] But Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers; so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 12 For every man threw down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 13 And Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the LORD had said. (Exo 7:11-13 NKJ)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NOTICE Pharaoh's hardening his own heart = "as the LORD had said":[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. (Exo 7:3 NKJ)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ripping verses out of context to teach God causes evil, is a serious blasphemy. There is no other way to describe it.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]some are blinded (Romans 11:7),[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sovereign God has the right to accomplish His purposes, but you slander God claiming He blinded these to torment them eternally:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11[/FONT][FONT=&quot] I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! (Rom 11:11 NKJ)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25[/FONT][FONT=&quot] For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Rom 11:25-33 NKJ)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Rather than an evil God of Reprobation, we have all Israel that was blinded by God, saved! One whose depth of riches of Mercy causes Paul to sing praises![/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How different the God of the Bible is, to the god of Calvin.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] some men were ordained to condemnation (Jude 4)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ripped out of context it becomes a pretext for slander, but in context its clear from the warning, these first disbelieved, then reaped what they sowed. They were marked after they chose to rebel, not caused to rebel by God![/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4[/FONT][FONT=&quot] For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. (Jud 1:4-5 NKJ)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God led Egypt astray (Isaiah 19:14)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In response to their evil, God judged them, sending them a strong delusion just as He will those who do not love the truth in the end time (2 Thess 2:10):[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When the prophet says, “The Lord has poured into them a spirit of dizziness,” he is of course thinking of a personal spirit (v.14: cf. 1 Sam 16:14; 18:10; 19:9; 1 Kings 22:19–23). It is clear that this spirit comes for moral reasons and as a judgment from God. - Grogan, G. W. (1986). Isaiah. In F. E. Gaebelein (Ed.), The Expositor’s Bible Commentary: Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel (Vol. 6, p. 127). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Pharaoh was reprobate for a purpose (Exodus 9:16)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yes, of course he was, and Paul explained he got that way because God withheld mercy and compassion, and didn't stop his magicians from confirming his evil heart's desire and free will choice to rebel against God. Why are you repeating this? See my reply to your twisting Romans 9:21-22 above.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God created the wicked for the day of evil (Proverbs 16:4)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Context exists for a reason, its so you don't get it wrong:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4[/FONT][FONT=&quot] The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 5 Everyone proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD; Though they join forces, none will go unpunished. (Pro 16:4-5 NKJ)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Even the wicked for the day of evil,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] i.e., to experience the day of evil, and then to receive His well merited punishment. It is not specifically the day of final judgment that is directly intended (as though the doctrine here were that of a predestination of the ungodly to eternal damnation, as many of the older Reformed interpreters held), but any day of calamity whatsoever, which God has fixed for the ungodly, whether it may overtake him in this or in the future life. Comp. the “day of destruction,” Job 21:30; the “day of visitation,” Is. 10:3. [Holden’s rendering “even the wicked He daily sustains,” is suggested by his strong aversion to the doctrine of reprobation, but is not justified by the use of the Hebrew phrase, or by the slightest requirement or allowance in the parallelism. Liberal interpreters like Noyes find not the slightest reason for following him.—A.]- [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lange, J. P., Schaff, P., Zo[/FONT][FONT=&quot]̈[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ckler, O., & Aiken, C. A. (2008). [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A commentary on the Holy Scriptures: Proverbs (p. 154). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Compare Septuagint:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]All of the works of the Lord are done with righteousness; and the ungodly man is kept for the evil day. (Pro 16:9 LXE)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]and we read in the parable that some will not see the Gospel and be hardened. That is evil, wicked men are hardened further by God. (Luke 8:10)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]On the contrary, in response to choices made, eyes either see or not. Those who rather believe the Devil than God, have the word snatched away; Those who don't allow the word a place in their hearts, soon , fall away; Those who love the riches and pleasures of life, bring no fruit to maturity.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.'[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 12 "Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 13 "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 14 "Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 15 "But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] (Luk 8:10-15 NKJ)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You have turned Christ's words on their head, and made God the fault for their falling away. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There are no proofs God corrupts men hearts so they do evil, that demonic idea is not found in scripture. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you happen upon a verse that seems to suggest James is wrong (James 1:13-15) about evil desires springing up from men's hearts, and that God is NOT the author of evil desires, I suggest you admit you are misreading the text. Just as you have all the above texts. You are reading into the scripture, a demonic idea that is definitely contradicted by the Scripture.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Nearby my home, coming down from the mountain, there is a river where water seems to travel up hill, because of the incline of its surroundings. But its an optical illusion. Upon seeing it, I know its impossible water travel up hill, I purposely disregard what seems to be the case, because I know the context proves it is not so.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I suggest you do that with those paltry few texts, that seem to suggest James is wrong about God. He is not, Calvin is.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. (Jam 1:13-17 NKJ)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can anyone imagine causing men to do evil, and be lost eternally, is something the Father of lights would do, in whom there is no variation or shadow of unrighteousness.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Like a diamond turned in the light, God shines from every aspect. Calvin's god of predestined reprobation however, shines only if you happen to be one of God's elect. Everyone else, sees only the dark side. That is not the God of the Bible.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[JustAsIam77]

Alfred, I humbly suggest you may be in the wrong forum, your exegesis of scripture is in direct opposition to Reformed theology.